john banks

Fuelling is based on MAF not lambda during open loop (ie fun) conditions - this is the reason - it would be a useless sensor to use for fuelling, but knowing its limits it is useful for estimating fuelling.

HarryBoy

Removing the Dawes just because you are cruising at speed on the Autobahn is plain paranoia IMHO. If you are suggesting cruising at 130+ MPH you are more likely to suffer a big end failure due to other reasons than having a Dawes fitted!

Drill the bleed hole out to 1.5mm and the part throttle max boost scenario becomes a non-issue.

Subzero, I have now done over 7000 miles with the Dawes fitted, I drive my car hard and have every confidence in it. I have an AFR meter and got the car checked with a Select Monitor, no Det. Play safe with the boost setting, keep the fuel cut and enjoy the experience!

Harry

Gridlock Mikey

ARRRRGHHH Its happened again

But for what it's worth, i've driven my car along the Autobahns for prolonged periods at 120mph + speeds for 1-2hrs without a care in the world. (Stopping to get fuel being the only break)

Had I have known about inlet temperatures and all the rest of the techie stuff i'd have worried and hired a vectra or summat to do the trip!

I would have worried myself IMHO unneccesarily and deprived myself of what was a thoroughly good experience

The car has been fine (Done nearly 9,000 uk miles since) by the way with no adverse stuff to report. Surely that contradicts Johns post. Now i respect johns input don't get me wrong but had I not have actually been there and "done" that i'd have no choice but to believe what he had said. I'd never take the car over 90mph and worry about "hurrying" down b-roads for prolonged periods.

As I mentioned earlier, i'm not undermining John's knowledge or expertise, far from it.

I suppose someone will tell me that i've caused untold damage to the internals of my engine and it's only a matter of time before it all goes bang. If it does, then it does, but i've decided that i'm just gonna do stuff to my car and live with the consequences.

Here's one for you all to consider, i have been told that fitting the Dawes on it's own is a daft thing to do. I would need to upgrade my pistons etc,etc,etc. C'mon guys, WTF is that all about

Mikey Pi55ed off a little that he doesn't know enough technical stuff to be able to challenge other peoples opinions

ScoobyJawa

Mikey,

Not sure why you'd need to upgrade the pistons to run 260+ bhp and 250+ torque. The PPP doesn't require it, neither does a UK car running the Link, look at Andy T's old car 356bhp and that was on standard internals (IIRC), whoever said that to you sounds like they are scaremongering

HarryBoy

John, I said that the part-throttle issue becomes a non-issue, I did not say it is removed completley.

At 6000 RPM with Dawes my car is generating approx. 1PSI more than without IE Stock. Yes, the engine is perhaps pushed nearer to it's knock limit but there are other variables that can also contribute, poor fuel, 95RON fuel, ambient temperature, humidity, altitude as you say, bonnet deformation at speed.......would these not also have an effect even if you are running stock boost control?

If Lars has wound his boost way over stock then yes I would be concerned, but I would also be concerned at running at such speeds for long durations even with stock boost controll, the number of reports of big end failure would deter me from going at thos speeds even in a UK spec. Impreza. As you say a nice large capacity V6 would be more confidence inducing than a small capacity Turbo.......

Mikey, "Here's one for you all to consider, i have been told that fitting the Dawes on it's own is a daft thing to do. I would need to upgrade my pistons etc,etc,etc. C'mon guys, WTF is that all about" it's FUD......

Harry

nom

Wouldn't/couldn't it actually be SAFER to use the Dawes on sustained high-speed runs / high altitudes (presuming on the high-speed runs that sustained boost is something to do with failure) if the thing was adjusted to a lower boost? If it was set to boost at, say, 10psi (ick ) then it would protect the engine more that the standard iffy solenoid/brainless ECU setup which may well attempt to increase boost to compensate for lower atmospheric pressure, etc?

GavinP

I think the lines are becoming a bit blurred here....

The problem reported with high-speed running (110mph+) over a long period is suspected to be related to the engine's oil supply.

The boost control used - OE / Electronic / Dawes is not a factor.

Increasing the boost will obviously increase the stress on the engine which is probably not a good idea in these circumstances in light of the suspected oil feed problem.

Thanks

Gavin

HarryBoy

Thanks John, I believe we are on the same thinking lines, I was not intending to sound as if I where challenging your valid opinion. I was trying to help Mikey and others see the use of the Dawes in the correct 'light'. I value your opinion and understand the points raised.

I will need to revisit my boost produced at 6000RPM but I am sure it's only 1PSI or so different not 3 PSI as you mention. Hence my belief that there are many other factors involved if it is intended to cruise at these speeds.

You also raise a valid point about the large safety margins built in by Subaru but as you say anyone who intends to modify their cars must understand they are taking a risk, there are no absolutes or guarantees.

Harry

GavinP

John,

You are absolutely right - it is all theories at the moment regarding the high speed running although there does seem to be similarities in the cases reported.

I was just a little concerned that people started thinking that UK motorway speeds were dangerous using a Dawes - or driving across the Penines was hazardous with a Da.. - well you get the idea !

The two issues are separate IMHO but you obviously don't want to stress the engine in apparently potentially hazardous situations.

Thanks

Gavin

dfullerton

Harryboy what size should i drill my bleed hole 1.5 or 1 mm. I have a TD05

john banks

Leave it alone from what the TD05 guys say. Just go to say 4500rpm in 3rd gear and plant the throttle half way and see what boost you get. If it is sensible leave it alone.

dfullerton

If not open her up

john banks

Try 1.0 mm to start with IF the boost is excessive on half throttle. The hole starts out at 0.5mm. I presently use a 2mm bleed hole as it is the only way I kept it from being lean on a TD04L with a tightened actuator. Small changes make a BIG difference as with all small orifices boost control is involved.

dfullerton

Thanks for the info John

ScoobyJawa

Some good words there John How bloody quick do you type to get that lot up in one night

ScoobyJawa

lol

You'll probably have to wait until tomorrow for that pleasure

EvilBevel

Good points John.

Mickey, I think he is right: you either decide to learn a bit more about how it all works, or keep the car standard/pick a tuning kit that is "set & forget" (although even in this last case, you may not end up with what you wanted to ...)

The learning part is the biggest fun BTW: the extra power, you get used to it after 3 weeks. But if you don't enjoy the learning bit, it just becomes tedious after a while (i.e. "but you said that" ... "yeah, unless yxz" etc)

Does that sound patronizing ? It's not meant to be, for sure !

Theo

Gridlock Mikey

John,

There will be no punching here today How can you paste someone about a subject they know more about than you

When i apply what you have written to my area of expertise (Digital Copiers) I find that as a salesman, the areas are deliberatley left grey (To avoid pointless objections) unless directly challenged. If i am ever challenged by a customer about a feature of one of my products, i answer the question in a black/white fashion. This i find helps me to retain control of the sale and gives me an opportunity to close it.

If i were to continue being grey and vague, there is a good chance that the deal would fall through.

Maybe it's just the way that i think, to me life is all about selling, you sell ideas to Girlfriends, wives etc. You sell concepts to mates and collegues, it's happening all the time.

The Scoob fettling industry, i believe, sometimes take the pi55 and deliberatley keep things grey in order to increase thier chances of a sale.

Let's take twin dump down pipes for example. Flavour of the month back in November. I asked a few people to explain to me why they were better than traditional down pipes and if i was happy with the explaination, i would have paid the "extra". Nobody would agree on the benefits, even the people selling them couldn't agree why it was better. I felt i was being asked for more money, for no apparent reason.

The subject was too "grey" so they lost the sale!

I don't think that it's right. There's nothing i can do about it i know but i can voice an opinion.

I just want to make sure that "Dawes" isn't this months flavour!

Evil, i'm trying to learn about the car, but i can't get a simple answer from anywhere. It's like going to a maths lesson to learn addition and being taught algebra. I want to know if Dawes is safe, i get treated like a algebra professor or a guy who can't count to ten! Surely there is an inbetween?

I can't believe you just read all of that, ain't you lot got work to do

Mikey

p.s I reckon I can type quicker than John


Edited cos EvilBevil got in there before me


[Edited by Gridlock Mikey - 2/13/2002 9:24:55 AM]

john banks

My recent educashons have lead me two bee mor kollabberativ wiv peepul and impowwer them wiv informashun to help them on there way. This is possibly opposite to closing a sale! Expressing uncertainty to "clients" is the new cool in my profession and is seen to be more open and honest and develops higher satisfaction. Most scientists writing papers now state their findings and under-interpret their conclusions to avoid being flamed, especially in the noddy sciences like mine.

EvilBevel

Intresting points Mickey.

A few thoughts ... one thing is that John is not trying to sell anything ... he is wondering about the grey areas himself, trying to understand them, and sometimes can improve his setup as he uncovers them. He constantly shares his thougts on here, provokes more discussion, which may seem like it's all rocket science.

I think John is going to great lenghts to *avoid* it being the flavor of the month.

Also ... imagine one of your customers found a cheap way to turn a 5000 copy/hour machine into a 6000 one. Say he is on CopyNet, and explains what he has done, the problems he sees, the possible dangers etc... will he have black/white answers to whether this is good/safe etc... ? , baring in mind there are Jap Copier versions as well as UK versions, model year changes, there's things like warrenty, quality of paper used (it works with 90 grams, but not with 80 grams), you get the picture.

I understand what you are saying about the confusing answers, but don't forget that the Scooby tuning scene is fairly new (compared to Cosworth tuning for example) and that even the tuners learn new things every day.

At the moment, the only company in my view that is actively participating on this board AND knows a lot of things in black/white when it comes to engine tuning is BRD - love it or hate it. They can stand behind their products, but they also can "control" the situation (map the ECU for their customers). I doubt that Bob would just send everyone a Link with a note "happy mapping!". *Especially* to people who don't really want to learn about engine tuning.

I could "sell" a Dawes to you, but this place isn't about selling, it's about gathering as much information as possible - and hopefully sharing some information as well. That information evolves, and we/scoobynet now knows things we didn't a year ago (or six months, or 2 years...). That information is also sometimes not black/white.

Dawes on a MY99/00 is as safe as it gets, provided you check a few things, and keep an eye on things as well. No, you don't need new pistons/gearboxes/air refreshers to make it work, and no, your engine will not run too lean (it may run too rich). If you keep the standard fuel cut limit (i.e., don't fit electronics that lifts or removes that limit), you will hit the windscreen before you hit the limits of your engine. It is a great setup if you are prepared to walk a few extra miles to see what's happening/finetuning it.

And yes, you will get a very good power increase.

But I personally would not recommend it to you as a fit & forget option.

Anyway, this was my attempt at a short and clear answer LOL

Theo

Gridlock Mikey

Cheers Dude

Just out of interest! Why not fit and forget? If i've set the thing up properly (Straight slightly uphill WOT in 4th & 5th running about 15psi having drilled me hole to about 1.5mm from 0.5mm Who says i can't do algebra lol ) i don't change my induction or exhaust systems and i use the same fuel, why do i need to keep playing around with it?

Or are you saying that i will keep playing because i'll be on a quest for more and more power/efficiency etc

Mikey

Gridlock Mikey

john banks

Sounds perfect Mikey. You may find it drops a bit in the summer and needs a small tweak. By going higher you will not get any more top end over 6000rpm and it will feel quite good at 15PSI.

[Edited by john banks - 2/13/2002 11:04:44 AM]

HarryBoy

I don't believe there are any absolutes in this world other than taxes and death!

I am a pre-sales techie working in the computer storage industry (storage area networks) and get involved with large corporate installations all the way down to small distribution outlets. All customers ask for a guarantee on interoperability between components, it has to be explained that we can only test components to a basic level and to the best of our knowledge and as such will underwrite what we have tested only. We advise customers to trail their installations before they commit valuable data (their customer data) to a 'live' installation. Even then we ask that they take precautions to ensure that they do not loose data. They may even ask for other reference sales sites and we provide those details if we can, but no two are the same and the trialing and precautions still have to be taken.

Even a PPP fitted and supplied by a Subaru dealer has conditions on it. Power is said to increase by 20% whatever that means. The price you pay covers the warrantee supplied with it and also covers the R&D expense incurred by Prodrive/Subaru. You have to follow the regular service intervals and have Subaru approved part's fitted etc. Stray outside the warrantee terms and you have no come back if it goes wrong.

Same with the Dawes, although you now have no come back if for whatever reason you break something. If you like fiddling and twiddling and like the idea of getting more power relatively cheaply then the Dawes works but has to be viewed in the light that you pay for what you get and it needs nursing in it's use.

To some extent I think you can fit-and-forget with the Dawes if you make sure the initial setup up is OK and that you check it on a regular basis. A boost guage is a must. You check your oil once a week don't you! You would not dream of going on a 1000 mile motoring holiday in your Scooby without checking tyres, oil coolant etc?

Harry

john banks

Unfortunately though the 20% increase with PPP is midrange power and torque. At the top end it is only 10%.

Lars

I just want to add a new comments to the discussion.
Subaru has just announced their 2002 STI with 265bhp. Boost is 1.2 according to a test in the French SUB magazine.
What has Subaru done to make sure the car is relieable.
Casted pistons !

And manuel waterspray to the IC

[Edited by Lars - 2/13/2002 12:04:10 PM]

[Edited by Lars - 2/13/2002 12:06:22 PM]

Subzero

Right, lets talk about the high speed bit/cooling bit. Now I thought the conclusion to the No3 big end failure was down to oil type(possibly) but more interestingly, down to prolonged high speed runs. This was attributed to aerodynamic trouble with air flow into the I/C. @ 130mph inlet temps would rise due to more air going over the scoop than into it. If the boost was increased then this would just make matters worse (but IMHO if your car was suseptable to this then it wouldn't matter whether you'd DD your car or not as it would just 'let go' sooner rather than later). It seems to me that boost is not the main reason for problems at high speed.

So if you want to do high speed autobarn type runs, then it would be safer to monitor the intake temps?

If you're going to add a DD then you'll need at the minimum a boost guage and AFR, plus for bigger boost, an inlet temp gauge along with an EGT for belt and braces, then a knock indicator last to really know what's happening.

No wonder some cars look like the control centre of the space shuttle!

When I get around to fitting my DD (from the first group buy!)I will have the AFR running as well as my newly installed boost gauge. I will also fit an inlet temp gauge, but not permanently as it's a bit bulky work jobbie.

I want to end up with 250bhp for under £150 in tuning bits, for a MY00. Can anyone beat that? Am I tighter than John?(not in a sexual way of course)

Floyd

EvilBevel

Floyd,

Although there have been many discussions & thoughts, in the end, no one ever reached a firm conclusion on what exactly causes the big end to go.

Ray T

Question to anyone.
i've also ordered the AFR with the dawes device (not got em yet), Where does the AFR wire into on an MY00, standard chip etc.
piccie's would be nice, or easy to understand discription.

thanks

ray t

GavinP

I would recommend to anyone using Redline WaterWetter in the engine coolant - which has a knock-on effect for the oil cooler and the turbo. I've been using it for 2 years and it does seem to work....

£18 from Demon Tweeks. Some cheap additional insurance.

http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm

http://www.e30m3performance.com/myth...ter_wetter.htm

Thanks

Gavin