boomer

r32,

This graph, from the link that i gave above, shows how little effect lowering the limit from 80 to 50 or even to zero will have...



...and as you say, the real pi55-artists will continue to drink and drive (even when banned!) until they are finally banged up (or boxed up).

mb

s1lko

If this illustrates anything, it's that more up to date research is long overdue. Roads were very different 40-odd years ago, with slower cars and fewer people driving. These are factors that can not be ignored in this argument.

I'm not rubbishing the poster here, just questioning why so many people's livelihoods are determined by such out of date data.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Possibly there would be a place for some more up to date research, I don't know alot about what information is already used, which so far has led to us just having a limit, and not a ban.

I don't know, but from what I was aware, those involved in incidents and accidents, where police attended, were breathalised, regardless of fault. If this is true, then possibly through the outcome of that procedure (i.e. the level of alcohol involved in them/or lack of), then this could be why there hasn't actually been a massive outcry for zero tolerance, so far as I'm aware. Possibly through the existing procedures in place, if I'm correct on that, there has been no reason for a specific study, or correlation of this information, as there isn't a problem anyway, amongst those operating within the law.

I don't know, just a thought, but considering the 'banning' culture we live in, in this country, I'd have thought this would be being actively pushed if there was in fact a serious issue of those sticking to the limit or below, causing accidents.

As to the op, don't assume too much, drink driving is just a chav thing. Absolutely they will make up a proportion, but it's not all down to them alone. Just from watching the many shows on tv alone, there seems to be alot of older and higher class people at it too. The reasons for doing it may well be slightly different, but it's not an issue just attached to one class/group of people.

boomer

...or maybe you/we should be asking why more recent, independent, studies have not been made - if this is such an important issue!!!

I watched "Tonight" earlier, which was a totally biased one-sided programme trying to justify a zero alcohol limit because some arsehole of a footballer drove at 100mph, whilst at TWICE the current alcohol limit, after a mere two hours sleep and killed a couple of kids (and permanently disabling their father).

Just how is a zero alcohol limit going to stop someone who is prepared to drive at double the existing limit??

And applying the same "rules", how is a zero mph speed limit going to make the world any safer???

How about having proper traffic police on the roads enforcing existing rules before creating more legislation that will be ignored!!

mb

djmisio85

I think a zero limit, would put fear into the minds of most people...

Its better to have a country with people driving around with 0% alcohol in their blood, rather than people driving around with 35mg/100ml of alcohol in their blood...

Just making the rules stricter might clean the country up, people would learn a bit more respect.

Say you're at a pub, and you see someone who was drinking get into a car and drive off, nowadays neither you or the driver would give a 2nd thought, you would assume they are under the limit, they would assume they are under the limit and wont get caught BUT if there was a ban in drinking and driving, the above situation would be very different. Just like people can report someones registration number for bad/dangerous driving, the same could be done for someone drinking and driving.....

whether that person has an accident or not, is another matter, but they are definitely at a higher risk of NOT being able to avoid an accident rather than the sober person. I know many people who get a little tipsy after a pint, I know many people who dont, but its safe to say that people would rather the roads be full of sober driver, compared to roads being full of people with a given % of alcohol in them.

And once again, if the limit was zero from the start, in times when people still respected each other and the law, now by giving people an inch, they take a mile.... Driving over the limit, is still breaking the law... and giving them that freedom to have that 1 pint, is taking everyone one step closer to drink driving...

Would you rob a house, just because everyone else is doing it? Probably not...
because its breaking the law, would you go look into someones house, to see what they have, no, because it would look like you want to steal, even of that wasnt your intention.

Torquemada

Erm, I think most people do have the necessitated 'fear level' to not go out drink driving. The ones who are the real problems will continue.
Banging on about it, over and over again doesn't change the fact that a ban is mostly pointless, which you've already highlighted by talking about some of your Japanese friends still drink driving in a country that has a total ban.
I understand where you're coming from but disagree with how to tackle the issue.

Torquemada

Oh, and they've tried that a while ago, I think they handed out rewards for dobbing people in as well. Could be wrong though

s1lko

Because this country has lacked a government with the backbone to rock the boat on any issue that clearly divides opinion, such as this. Nor one that will allow us to see facts of any sort in their entirety, without putting a bucketload of spin on them.

Invariably, decisions on matters such as this will hinge on opinion polls rather than up to the minute, statistically sound and, therefore, undisputable facts.

Leslie

I certainly agree about the need to get the traffic police numbers back up to what they always used to be.

Les

PeteBrant

Because there will be a percentage of people that are not aware of what takes them over the limit. Are you? I have no idea at what point I would be *definitely* over the limit. One pint? two? three? I got breathalysed when I was 17 after being in a club and having had 5 pints, and I got an amber light.

From that point on I have never had a drink when I am driving.

I bet there will be people out there that can drink 9 pints and not feel a thing, there will be others that can half a glass of wine and be all over the place, and be incredibly dangerous, yet remain under the limit.

Take out the guess work - Simple, if you are going to drive, dont drink. No interpretation required.

r32

Just think, one portion of Christmas pud, one bowl of trifle or a nibble on a chocolate liqueur and you lose your licence for a year. Unfit to drive? What do you think?

Whilst the graph may be a little old, I would guess that the data would still be fairly accurate for today. At least some data which shows something is better than the total lack of hard data by the "lets f****ing ban everything" brigade. I think you could almost use the data in the graph to determine the effect of alchohol on driving ability.

Lets not forget that the cases that bring this kind of zero tolerance to the fore are not that some one had a level of just above zero and wiped a family out but those where some one was barely capable of standing but still drove and caused carnage.

So let some one produce some information or data that showed some one with low alchohol levels caused an accident. Please dont forget that there are still horrific accidents where no one had been drinking.

I'm not supporting that we drink and drive, I'm just trying to point out that there is nothing that would show a zero level would make any difference what so ever and it would be so difficult to know when one was at zero. I'm trying to be realisic.

s1lko

Ok, so most people agree a zero limit will not stop the extreme cases. I agree but that, I would guess, is only a small percentage of the population. It's the hazy middle ground where people decide what is safe for them to drink that concerns me more.

One poster said he felt fine after 5 pints, others say a couple of glasses of wine. But that's the problem - these conclusions are being reached, and possibly impaired, while under the influence of alcohol.

The truth is, the effects of alcohol are there from the very first mouthful. However you break it down though, there's no magical 'one pint' buffer zone where the alcohol doesn't exist. How it affects people depends on the individual but very few, I would imagine, know exactly how much is needed take them over the alcohol limit.

Interestingly, I seem to recall a fairly recent news story stating that younger drivers are now the worst offenders. When I was younger, I remember a big fuss being made of drink driving. Does anybody here think there is less education on the subject at the moment, or is it just a 'binge drinking' culture problem now?

PeteBrant

I really dont see what the issue people have with being allowed to drink a bit before driving. I mean, just don't do it - It's really not that difficult.


Zero limit, or as near as make no odds, to cater for all those habitual chocolate liquer eaters out there.

phil84

Driving is my job so I don't risk it.

I know there are plenty of people who just have 1. Thats a risk they take at the end of the day.

Luan Pra bang

We have some of the safest roads in the world relative to the number of cars and population and yet idiots keep harping on about a zero drink drive limit that would have almost zero effect on road deaths. Pete the lover of evidence and facts has found no information to back up the idea of a zero limit making the roads safer.
Why don't we just ban driving all together and all use a bicycle ? the economy would be ruined but we may all live longer. In fact why not just pad the walls with cotton wool and stay at home ? Is it actually possible to do anything with out some idiot carrying out a risk assesment and decideing its too dangerous. It all makes me want to drink a bottle of vodka and get on my motorbike in a par of speedos and see how fast I can go.

phil84

Sorry Luan Pra bang, I dont agree with you there.

Some people cannot drive competently to start with and the results have been fatal.

Imagine the 1's who think they can drive then COMBINED with alcohol, thats clever

Spoon

Just be careful this wind doesn't chafe your knees.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Maybe there should be some effort put into trying to give people an idea what amount of alcohol (in real terms) will determine whether they are above or below the limit. I know there are many factors involved, but if giving people information as a 'rough' idea, those unsure, or who think they are fine may not take the risk of having one or so too many.

I was reading recently, as a rough guideline, men should consume no more than 4 units/women no more than 3 before driving. I personally thought it was only 2. Obviously, as said, it's almost impossible to give an absolute guideline, but if say pubs etc. gave a least some idea, even slightly lower, then those who are just a bit unsure, would have much more information at hand. The limit is fairly low, imo, and I honestly believe most people who abide by the limit, and not just assume they are fine, are not creating a huge problem out there. Yes there will be some who think they are ok after a good drink, but I bet they know deep down, if they are caught, they may well be over the limit. They are taking a chance already, and may be the people who would take the chance of not getting caught if it were zero tolerance, I don't know, but I'd guess it's quite possible. I'd guess most people who already try to stick within the limit, don't want a conviction against them as it is, and with a bit more information, those unsure, can have something to stick to.

I personally could have a pint of lager (I don't drive btw), and I hand on heart could say I know I would be absolutely fine to drive, a glass of wine however, no way. I think those sensible enough to care about sticking to a limit, would by and large, know what effects them and how, and not drive if they felt impaired.

Those selfish or irresponsible enough to go out and get bladdered and drive, or 'take a chance' knowing they've most likely had too much, would most likely carry on regardless.

I just think a zero limit, for many reasons is not massively practical. I think we have enough rules as it is, and it doesn't sit well with me, that we suggest imposing something on us again, that penalises the majority who aren't causing any problems, whilst yet again those who are, would just carry on. Only my feelings.

Yes educate people, and give more information as to what is 'safe', so to speak. At least give some sort of guideline that clarifies the limit in real terms (as much as possible).