NotoriousREV

To be fair there are people on here that make the Mail look positively Marxist

Martin2005

As usual UB you fire off poorly thought out and inaccurate nasty rubbish.

IT WAS MIDDLE ENGLAND THAT VOTED IN NL, don't you understand that??

Pandering to the less well off, would almost certainly get you VOTED OUT

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Martin, I have the upmost respect for you standing up for the other side, so to speak. I try to do the same. However, despite which paper happens to report these stories (and I'm in no doubt it's often done to wind people up), the fact remains this type of thing does go on. I wouldn't say, for the most part in involves so many children, but even from just my own experience, claiming benefits rather than doing some honest graft, is quite rife.

The sorry fact is a system which should be positive, is being widely abused, and more often than not, when people do fall on hard times (who have paid into the pot), this system fails them. It is supposed to be a helping hand, not a long term pay cheque.

Yes people are getting wound up by a story, but it's most likely because they see this for themselves anyway.

BTW, I have absolutely no issue with people using this system to help them out, if genuinely needed, but I can't help but take issue with those who are just simply taking the ****.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I love the term "Credit Crunch", its not really that accurate, I prefer Economic Armageddon but the wife as a token gesture to economy has started buying Tesco value crisps, which are now known in the J4CKO household as Credit Crunch, as in "Mum, Can I have a bag of Credit Crunch"

It amuses me anyway.

Martin2005

I have absolutely no doubt this sort of thing goes on either, I wasn't disputing that at all.

It does make me laugh though that people go on and on about politicains spinning the facts, and yet they are quite happy for the media to do it.

GC8

No it wasnt: it was people who regard themselves as such.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

At the end of the day, I have no doubt everybody has their own agenda, be it the media or politicians etc. It's a sorry fact of the world we live in.

My ideal would be people were honest and decent, whoever they are. Unfortunately, in one way or another most people are merely out for themselves.

Martin2005

What does that mean???

It was the same middle class (or fake middle class if you want it that way) that voted in Margeret Thatcher and Tony Blair

it's just a fact

GC8

No Martin, its is your opinion. Dress it up as fact all you like, but its a little rich to then criticise others for expressing similarly slanted opinions that you dont agree with...

Martin2005

Rubbish - I'm not expressing any slanted opinions whatsoever, I'm just using the facts and the truth, rather than snide, right wing nasty myth.

It's not an opinion it a fact!!

I mean, let's put it simplistically there are not enough scrounging dole dossers in the country to elect a government. ALL elections are won in the centre, middle England, the swing voters.

Go look it up

GC8

Fail Martin.

Martin2005

Is that your way of saying you cannot back up your arguement with the facts?

c_maguire

This concept of 'middle England' is a joke. Since this government arrived everybody and their dog thinks they are middle class. A little bit of self-awareness wouldn't go amiss.
Historically Labour have had a strong following in the working, lower or whatever else you want to call it classes. The common thread amongst these people is that they are just not that bright. Chucking money at dumb people is most definitely a vote winner for Labour.
Here's a good idea......the vote is awarded only to those in employment and therefore a taxpayer, so only those financing the system have a say in how it is managed.
Kevin

Martin2005

But this core Labour vote simply isn't sufficient to get them elected. Just as there aren't enough core tory voters for them to win a majority.

Why are people disputing this??

GC8

I have to go now: look carefully at this picture and hopefully, youll be able to see the wood by the time Im back.....

PeteBrant

Just out of interest, like, how much do people think the state should contribute to a family of 10 children? If at all.

I mean, of course its morally reprehensible to expect the state to support you and your family, but, it is just as morally wrong to say "tough".

I dont see how you can't pay the money, as a state? I mean these are kids -what other option is there?

PeteBrant

Working class people aren't that bright. WHat d you base this on, and what do you class as "working class people"? Was the country taken over by them in 97/2001/2005, then? You know, during those landslide election wins.

Pensioners, disabled, redundant, out of work through no fault of thier can't vote either then.?

Martin2005

Because the facts speak for themselves and are bleedin obvious are they not?

If the middle ground didn't hold the key to the election then we'd very likely have one party in office all the time.

Both partys have targeted middle england (mondeo man in the 90's)

Why is this even up for debate, it's a matter of historical fact?

cster

Err - get a job

c_maguire

The snip.

Martin2005

so this means I'm wrong then does it?

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

To be honest, I don't think that's entirely fair (what I highlighted). I am working class, and although I wouldn't ever say I was massively intelligent, I'm certainly not stupid etc. Just because someone is working class, doesn't mean they are any less of a person, or that they aren't clever in a way some higher class people aren't. People have many circumstances as to why they may not 'fit into' another class. From a stand point of someone, lower down in the pile, they may well have voted labour, hoping they would have some of their interests at heart, tbh, that doesn't seem to have actually happened.

Very little money is actually chucked at working class people as such. Yes, those who don't actually want to work, and intend to do anything in their power to never have to, seem quite well catered for, but those actually working hard, for a low wage aren't often getting a penny of help.

Don't mix up those working the crappy jobs, most wouldn't want to do, just to get by and pay their way, with those who just don't want to do f**k all. And don't assume anyone who works in those crappy jobs are useless/ thick etc.

It may not have turned out as expected by the working classes, but I think to a point, they could be forgiven for hoping a party claiming to have some of their interests at heart, would be a viable option, as opposed to a party they saw as favouring the better off.

Martin2005

Good idea, let's extend that further, as someone in the top 5% of wage earners in the UK can I have more votes than the other 95%?

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

I don't for a second claim to have a real answer to that, but I do believe changes need to be made, to make this life choice a less viable option. It needs to get back to a system, whereby short term help is available if needed, but not some life long income.

Maybe more help should be given to get people in work, top up wages, reductions in certain payments for those in low income jobs, low/free childcare etc. Basically encourage people to be in some form of work, and affordable for them to be so, rather than have a system which almost rewards those who know the system and play it, and offers very little to help out anyone who want to be in work, albeit, in a possibly low paying job, or one in which only so many hours can be worked.

Personally, I couldn't afford to have kids even if I wanted them, so I don't go out and pop them out. That's just me though. I don't want that sort of life. I've made mistakes in my life, but I personally pay for them.

c_maguire

I happen to respect anybody with a strong work ethic whatever their place on the ladder, the opinion you highlighted was a generalisation to make the point and not aimed at all. I for one have a lot of sympathy for those who go out to work for what ends up being little more than they might receive from sitting on their ***** for benefits. But if you have pride and morals then what else would you do?
Kevin

c_maguire

You're on a roll.......keep it up.
Kevin

Martin2005

Lisa / Pete

I think your various posts sum up the situation rather well, there are no easy answers here. NOBODY wants people abusing the system, but I'd rather let some get away with it than penalise honest many

c_maguire

The sentiment is good but is this really what we have to do nowadays, find ways of convincing people they really want to work?
Go back 50 years and a job was valued because without one life was genuinely tough, maybe the difference between a warm house or a cold one, or a full stomach or an empty one.
With the state wet-nursing every misfit is the current attitude of many much of a surprise?
Kevin