CAN THE CLASSICS KEEP UP WITH NEW GTI'S?
15 October 2008, 05:50 PM
#31
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As above with regards to physics, no matter how clever the electronics, weight transfer will always limit to what a FWD car can put down whether that be from standstill, or out of that twisty corner.
Well put!
Well put!
15 October 2008, 06:02 PM
#34
If you are talking about a standard unmodded Classic against a modern GTi (2.0T with FSI engine) then its no contest, the GTi would win hands down.
The 2.0TFSI engines are direct injection and have a fantastic spread of torque - almost flat from 1800-5000+ rpm coupled with very little turbo lag. Its a different driving experience altogether, whatever the 0-60 times say. The chassis on the latest VAG cars (A5 platform) is also very well sorted.
IIRC didn't one of the TV shows (5th Gear??) show a Golf GTi beating a MY08 STi around a track.
Obviously a modded Classic may well be faster, but of course the GTi can be remapped etc too, so you have to compare like with like. The advantage that the Subaru would have is that as the power goes up they still get the traction, whereas a FWD starts to struggle. On the VAG cars I reckon there is torque limiting in 1st gear to improve traction which can make the O-60 times look artificially slow. Having driven both cars fairly extensively the GTi is a lot lot quicker in day to day driving and gives pretty good economy too. Its just the onward march of technology and product improvement.
The 2.0TFSI engines are direct injection and have a fantastic spread of torque - almost flat from 1800-5000+ rpm coupled with very little turbo lag. Its a different driving experience altogether, whatever the 0-60 times say. The chassis on the latest VAG cars (A5 platform) is also very well sorted.
IIRC didn't one of the TV shows (5th Gear??) show a Golf GTi beating a MY08 STi around a track.
Obviously a modded Classic may well be faster, but of course the GTi can be remapped etc too, so you have to compare like with like. The advantage that the Subaru would have is that as the power goes up they still get the traction, whereas a FWD starts to struggle. On the VAG cars I reckon there is torque limiting in 1st gear to improve traction which can make the O-60 times look artificially slow. Having driven both cars fairly extensively the GTi is a lot lot quicker in day to day driving and gives pretty good economy too. Its just the onward march of technology and product improvement.
On 5th gear if i'am right the golfs top speed on the fast straight was 95mph as the scoobs was 115mphm, 20mph is a lot to catch up.
15 October 2008, 06:08 PM
#35
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15 October 2008, 06:17 PM
#36
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A guy I know has an Astra VXR Nurburgring edition. There is a road near where I stay that has a very long straight heading towards a bridge in both directions. The corner over the bridge is probably about 70 degrees.
He is a very quick driver, and rallies a FWD car, and the quickest he can take that bridge at is just a tad over 60.
In the dry last week I threw the car into it and the speedo didn't drop below 70 at any point: that wasn't the quickest I could have possibly taken it.
Make of that what you will. The only modification my car has from standard as far as suspension is concerned is Eibach springs.
I do believe however, that a standard Turbo 2000 does not handle anything like the new hot hatches. They turn in much better, and change direction more quickly. But in a front wheel drive car you can't get the power on as well as you can in a 4WD when coming out of corners.
He is a very quick driver, and rallies a FWD car, and the quickest he can take that bridge at is just a tad over 60.
In the dry last week I threw the car into it and the speedo didn't drop below 70 at any point: that wasn't the quickest I could have possibly taken it.
Make of that what you will. The only modification my car has from standard as far as suspension is concerned is Eibach springs.
I do believe however, that a standard Turbo 2000 does not handle anything like the new hot hatches. They turn in much better, and change direction more quickly. But in a front wheel drive car you can't get the power on as well as you can in a 4WD when coming out of corners.
15 October 2008, 06:22 PM
#37
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TBH the only true test is the clock, everything else is pub talk.
Saying that I've driven around a scoob on the rally stage.
If you need proof which is the quickest on tarmac look at when the 2wd Citroen Xsara (sp) beat all the then current WRC 4wd cars. Nuff said.
Saying that I've driven around a scoob on the rally stage.
If you need proof which is the quickest on tarmac look at when the 2wd Citroen Xsara (sp) beat all the then current WRC 4wd cars. Nuff said.
15 October 2008, 06:24 PM
#38
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15 October 2008, 06:31 PM
#41
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Cheers anyway.
15 October 2008, 07:01 PM
#43
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GTi ?
If you are talking about a standard unmodded Classic against a modern GTi (2.0T with FSI engine) then its no contest, the GTi would win hands down.
The 2.0TFSI engines are direct injection and have a fantastic spread of torque - almost flat from 1800-5000+ rpm coupled with very little turbo lag. Its a different driving experience altogether, whatever the 0-60 times say. The chassis on the latest VAG cars (A5 platform) is also very well sorted.
IIRC didn't one of the TV shows (5th Gear??) show a Golf GTi beating a MY08 STi around a track.
Obviously a modded Classic may well be faster, but of course the GTi can be remapped etc too, so you have to compare like with like. The advantage that the Subaru would have is that as the power goes up they still get the traction, whereas a FWD starts to struggle. On the VAG cars I reckon there is torque limiting in 1st gear to improve traction which can make the O-60 times look artificially slow. Having driven both cars fairly extensively the GTi is a lot lot quicker in day to day driving and gives pretty good economy too. Its just the onward march of technology and product improvement.
The 2.0TFSI engines are direct injection and have a fantastic spread of torque - almost flat from 1800-5000+ rpm coupled with very little turbo lag. Its a different driving experience altogether, whatever the 0-60 times say. The chassis on the latest VAG cars (A5 platform) is also very well sorted.
IIRC didn't one of the TV shows (5th Gear??) show a Golf GTi beating a MY08 STi around a track.
Obviously a modded Classic may well be faster, but of course the GTi can be remapped etc too, so you have to compare like with like. The advantage that the Subaru would have is that as the power goes up they still get the traction, whereas a FWD starts to struggle. On the VAG cars I reckon there is torque limiting in 1st gear to improve traction which can make the O-60 times look artificially slow. Having driven both cars fairly extensively the GTi is a lot lot quicker in day to day driving and gives pretty good economy too. Its just the onward march of technology and product improvement.
15 October 2008, 08:05 PM
#44
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i would say that a new gti (upto 3 years old) is likely, nay definately going to be a match for a car that is at least 10 years older than it!!!!!
improved traction control, throttle response, dsg gearboxes, better fueling etc etc are all going to even it up
but for value the classic wins by a mile for me
improved traction control, throttle response, dsg gearboxes, better fueling etc etc are all going to even it up
but for value the classic wins by a mile for me
15 October 2008, 08:17 PM
#45
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That old chestnut again. 5th gear did NOT show a GTI beating a MY08STi around a track - impossible. Maybe if it gets quoted enough it may become true? Certainly seems as if some people have convinced themselves and quote it in every argument about modern car speed. It was the new WRX. No comparison with a STi.
I made the point at the time that a fairer comparison would have been against the STi on the basis of both price and that they are both the sporty editions. However, as we all know the STi would have destroyed the GTI.
15 October 2008, 09:27 PM
#46
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but the real question should be "why would you want a modern self driving generic German dustbin?"
Even my measly 15 year old Lotus Elan with its lowly 190bhp is still way faster than the new age GTI's because its a superlight plastic bath tub weighing zip with lots of power on the road
I have to add that its NCAP rating is probably in negative numbers and its more likely to have funbags in the passenger seat than airbags for safety but thats not the point, its incredible to drive.
The only modern car worth buying is an ariel atom as it doesnt have any of those homosexual features like asr, esp, gay and whatever other electronic gizmo acronyms they can come up with.
Even my measly 15 year old Lotus Elan with its lowly 190bhp is still way faster than the new age GTI's because its a superlight plastic bath tub weighing zip with lots of power on the road
I have to add that its NCAP rating is probably in negative numbers and its more likely to have funbags in the passenger seat than airbags for safety but thats not the point, its incredible to drive.
The only modern car worth buying is an ariel atom as it doesnt have any of those homosexual features like asr, esp, gay and whatever other electronic gizmo acronyms they can come up with.
15 October 2008, 10:03 PM
#47
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Std Vs Std on a public road i'd say they'd be near enough even. Comparing modded against standard is a bit pointless but i would like to point out that an Ed30/S3/Cupra can hit 305bhp for as little as £550 (all the same engine) and given that the GTI has only 18% transmission loss compared to 25% of the scoob in a straight line from a rolling start the GTI would take the win even if against an 07 STI.
As for handling read this and it explains how the 4WD works compared to FWD & RWD.
As for handling read this and it explains how the 4WD works compared to FWD & RWD.
16 October 2008, 12:10 AM
#49
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As others have said, newer cars are getting heavier and heavier due to crash regulations and creature comforts e.g. the Impreza classic is over 100kg lighter than a MkV Golf Gti.
I have a book full of road tests over classic UK Imprezas at around 0-60mph in 5.3 seconds, 0-100mph in 14.8 seconds, quarter mile in 14.2 seconds and a Top speed of 143mph (those are the figures for the 208bhp car too).
Here are some figures for the Focus ST from EVO magazine:
0-60mph in 6.7 seconds, 0-100mph in 16.8 seconds, quarter mile in 15.3 seconds and a Top speed of 150mph
And the Golf GTI MkV DSG: 0-60mph in 6.9 seconds, 0-100mph in 16.1seconds, quarter mile in 15.1 seconds and a Top speed of 145mph
I don't know about which would be quicker round a track though.
I have a book full of road tests over classic UK Imprezas at around 0-60mph in 5.3 seconds, 0-100mph in 14.8 seconds, quarter mile in 14.2 seconds and a Top speed of 143mph (those are the figures for the 208bhp car too).
Here are some figures for the Focus ST from EVO magazine:
0-60mph in 6.7 seconds, 0-100mph in 16.8 seconds, quarter mile in 15.3 seconds and a Top speed of 150mph
And the Golf GTI MkV DSG: 0-60mph in 6.9 seconds, 0-100mph in 16.1seconds, quarter mile in 15.1 seconds and a Top speed of 145mph
I don't know about which would be quicker round a track though.
16 October 2008, 08:38 AM
#50
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CAN THE CLASSICS KEEP UP WITH NEW GTI'S
Thanks for your replies. I did test drive a new Octavia VRS two years ago, which is similar to a Golf GTI and to be honest the VRS felt quicker in second and third because of the low down torque. If you dial out the off the line advantage, you will see that the classic Impreza and the Golt GTI etc both do 60-100 in a similar time, i.e. just under 10 for the classic scoob, just over for the VAG cars. I was actually stunned that my classic scoob is slower on the motorway than my old A3 TDI (boosted to 280 lBFT torque) unless you use the gears. But I am happy with my standard old car, I think it still handles and pulls great, provided you use the gears! Having driven a lot of new cars lately, believe me the old girl, even standard can cut it with the new ones handling ones
16 October 2008, 10:23 AM
#51
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Classic = £2-5k
New golf gti = £18k?
No comparison really. Buy a classic, spend £12K on upgrades, beat most cars hands down and its still less than a golf!
New golf gti = £18k?
No comparison really. Buy a classic, spend £12K on upgrades, beat most cars hands down and its still less than a golf!
16 October 2008, 11:12 AM
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Std Vs Std on a public road i'd say they'd be near enough even. Comparing modded against standard is a bit pointless but i would like to point out that an Ed30/S3/Cupra can hit 305bhp for as little as £550 (all the same engine) and given that the GTI has only 18% transmission loss compared to 25% of the scoob in a straight line from a rolling start the GTI would take the win even if against an 07 STI.
As for handling read this and it explains how the 4WD works compared to FWD & RWD.
As for handling read this and it explains how the 4WD works compared to FWD & RWD.
Keeping the revs on through the corners, thats when the scoobies beat the golfs gti /ed30, focus st, cupra r, s3. As said before a properly driven scooby will beat the above. In the wet there is no comparision.
16 October 2008, 11:17 AM
#53
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If you are talking about a standard unmodded Classic against a modern GTi (2.0T with FSI engine) then its no contest, the GTi would win hands down.
The 2.0TFSI engines are direct injection and have a fantastic spread of torque - almost flat from 1800-5000+ rpm coupled with very little turbo lag. Its a different driving experience altogether, whatever the 0-60 times say. The chassis on the latest VAG cars (A5 platform) is also very well sorted.
IIRC didn't one of the TV shows (5th Gear??) show a Golf GTi beating a MY08 STi around a track.
Obviously a modded Classic may well be faster, but of course the GTi can be remapped etc too, so you have to compare like with like. The advantage that the Subaru would have is that as the power goes up they still get the traction, whereas a FWD starts to struggle. On the VAG cars I reckon there is torque limiting in 1st gear to improve traction which can make the O-60 times look artificially slow. Having driven both cars fairly extensively the GTi is a lot lot quicker in day to day driving and gives pretty good economy too. Its just the onward march of technology and product improvement.
The 2.0TFSI engines are direct injection and have a fantastic spread of torque - almost flat from 1800-5000+ rpm coupled with very little turbo lag. Its a different driving experience altogether, whatever the 0-60 times say. The chassis on the latest VAG cars (A5 platform) is also very well sorted.
IIRC didn't one of the TV shows (5th Gear??) show a Golf GTi beating a MY08 STi around a track.
Obviously a modded Classic may well be faster, but of course the GTi can be remapped etc too, so you have to compare like with like. The advantage that the Subaru would have is that as the power goes up they still get the traction, whereas a FWD starts to struggle. On the VAG cars I reckon there is torque limiting in 1st gear to improve traction which can make the O-60 times look artificially slow. Having driven both cars fairly extensively the GTi is a lot lot quicker in day to day driving and gives pretty good economy too. Its just the onward march of technology and product improvement.
I suppose then you will get a true reading of a cars evolution.
16 October 2008, 11:27 AM
#54
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What isn't really covered here is that we are really only talking 1 or 2 seconds - takes longer to say "1 or 2 seconds" than the time itself. Hardly a huge amount of time so in the real world there really isn't anything in it.
What we are talking about here with "Can it keep up" is if I choose to take up the offer of a race (we know when its on don't we?) am I going to be trounced?
Well, on the road it really boils down to who will take the biggest risk on the A road of your choice. If its flat out on the motorway its who bottles first.
The only real test is on track where its ability or car and driver that counts.
Personally, I'd much rather an Impreza than any of the hatches mentioned whether its quicker or not.
What we are talking about here with "Can it keep up" is if I choose to take up the offer of a race (we know when its on don't we?) am I going to be trounced?
Well, on the road it really boils down to who will take the biggest risk on the A road of your choice. If its flat out on the motorway its who bottles first.
The only real test is on track where its ability or car and driver that counts.
Personally, I'd much rather an Impreza than any of the hatches mentioned whether its quicker or not.
16 October 2008, 11:54 AM
#55
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Re: Can the classics keep up with new GTI's?
The Impreza doesn’t come close in the twisters tab, a 172 would kill it round corners or under the brakes but it has no grunt or potential for any really. The Impreza will win every time out of corners, and acceleration.
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16 October 2008, 01:11 PM
#57
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I wish I could get my Scoob handling anywhere near as good......
16 October 2008, 02:00 PM
#58
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whats the weight of the 172 compared to a classic?
16 October 2008, 02:08 PM
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He needed more commitment then, I was never troubled by a uk spec (obviously std) classic scoob in my 172. On the right road you cant keep up because the corner speed of the Clio is higher, but anything where you can get up into 5th in the Scoob all is lost. LOL
I wish I could get my Scoob handling anywhere near as good......
I wish I could get my Scoob handling anywhere near as good......