Red light camers/Emergency vehicles
09 November 2008, 06:46 PM
#61
It's the three points and the effect on my insurance.
I guess it is just an unwanted side effect of using cameras as policemen.
09 November 2008, 06:55 PM
#62
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In using emotion you also need to balance the real effect of causing a 20" hold up to wait for a green.
D
09 November 2008, 07:37 PM
#63
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Maybe you should be getting irate at others that cause this scenario rather than people who understandably don't want another 3 points on their licence and the potential then of even losing their job/livelihood and all that after half a dozen trips to a court the other end of the country since they did what used to be the right thing.
In using emotion you also need to balance the real effect of causing a 20" hold up to wait for a green.
D
In using emotion you also need to balance the real effect of causing a 20" hold up to wait for a green.
D
There has been debate about the courts but the thread starters question is simple.
So sat there you have a simple choice:-
1. Move and take the possible fine and the hassle of the courts.
2. Stay at the lights and delay someone who may be fighting for life.
For me that would take my mind a nano second to weigh up and I would move.
For me it is sad that people even consider No2 to be the correct choice. Outside what the police and courts would do I would be unable to sit there.
If you are able to sit there then again that probably says alot about todays society.
I do have an insight as I had an MI four years ago in the early hours of the morning. I got to hospital 20 minutes after making the call, if it had been mid day the same journey would have taken over 40 minutes and I probably wouldn't have made it.
Cheers
Lee
09 November 2008, 08:21 PM
#64
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Lee No2 isn't the correct choice and I think we all know that. It is however an unfortunate and possible consequence of the way we are cajoled and bullied by certain tyrants and petty bureaucrats in power. If you are on 9 points (as many decent safe people are for trivialities) you really do face the possibility of losing your livelihood and job over something you will totally be at the mercy of others to prove you innocent. Let us agree on that maybe?
Would I really sit on the white line with my handbrake firmly on at a red with an ambulance with the blues and twos behind me? Probably not in a million years but I would like to think I am bitter enough through experience to try and prove that point. Hope that isn't off topic
D
Would I really sit on the white line with my handbrake firmly on at a red with an ambulance with the blues and twos behind me? Probably not in a million years but I would like to think I am bitter enough through experience to try and prove that point. Hope that isn't off topic
D
09 November 2008, 08:44 PM
#65
if the police are behind you, you do not have to move, because by the policeman forcing you to go through a red light he is in fact endangering your life, which is against the law.
true fact, spoke to my mate whos old bill today.
true fact, spoke to my mate whos old bill today.
09 November 2008, 09:46 PM
#66
See the "Signals by authorised persons" section of the Highway Code.
09 November 2008, 10:26 PM
#67
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Thats absolute tosh as is most of the replies on this thread
If you get zapped by the camera then the emergency vehicle would also get zapped as well obviously. I don't believe for one minute that a magistrate would convict you having moved out of the way for an emergency vehicle and if it has happened to someone on here my advice would be to stop playing "the victim" and appeal against it because it would be a very wrong decision to convict in these circumstances.....
09 November 2008, 10:46 PM
#68
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Thats absolute tosh as is most of the replies on this thread
If you get zapped by the camera then the emergency vehicle would also get zapped as well obviously. I don't believe for one minute that a magistrate would convict you having moved out of the way for an emergency vehicle and if it has happened to someone on here my advice would be to stop playing "the victim" and appeal against it because it would be a very wrong decision to convict in these circumstances.....
Also, there have been cases where people have been done for moving out of the way of an emergency vehicle. I'd imagine there have been successful and unsuccessful appeals against tickets like this. I'd weight up the situation and, more than likely, if there was such a camera over the lights wouldn't move to trigger a flash.
10 November 2008, 12:10 AM
#69
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I would also suspect those that were done, if they do exist, are ones who completely go through the red light across the junction rather than moving to one side to let them through,
Happy to be proved wrong but I've never seen evidence of anyone ever being done for this, it's always someone they know who knows someone......
10 November 2008, 10:21 AM
#70
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Have there been? Can you point me to one or two, or is it just internet folklore, i.e. it's true, a mate of a mate of a mate was done etc...?
I would also suspect those that were done, if they do exist, are ones who completely go through the red light across the junction rather than moving to one side to let them through,
Happy to be proved wrong but I've never seen evidence of anyone ever being done for this, it's always someone they know who knows someone......
I would also suspect those that were done, if they do exist, are ones who completely go through the red light across the junction rather than moving to one side to let them through,
Happy to be proved wrong but I've never seen evidence of anyone ever being done for this, it's always someone they know who knows someone......
I passed a red light to let a police car through and got £60 penalty
Daily Mail, Wednesday, 10 th August 2005
A driver thought he was doing the right thing by moving over for a police car with flashing blue lights. Martyn Knight was soon thinking again – after the officer booked him for nudging through a red traffic light.
Mr Knight was on his way home from work when he drew up at pelican lights in his Renault Clio. A police car raced up behind and the 19-year-old barman moved on through th elights and on to the side of the road.
The ‘helpful' move of a few feet cost him a £60 fixed penalty and three points on his licence.
“I thought the police car was on a 999 call and needed to pass,” said Mr Knight, from Sketty, near Swansea. “I moved just beyond the lights to allow the police car through. I still can't believe what happened next. The policeman said he thought I'dbeen drinking and gave me a breath test which came up negative. Then he checked my car for faults and couldn't find any. Then he gave me the fixed penalty for jumping the pelican red lights. I thought it was some kind of joke to start with. It was really upsetting.”
His father Alan said: “I am furious. Martyn did the right thing to let this police car through. It looked like it was on an emergency call. Someone tries to do the right thing and gets out of the way for an emergency vehicle and they get three points on their licence. What is going to happen if people stop giving way to ambulances or fire engines because they are afraid of getting booked? We have already spoken to a solicitor and sent a complaint to the Chief Constable.”
A South Wales Police spokesman said a formal complaint about the alleged incident, in Dillwyn Street in the centre of Swansea, had been lodged.
He added: “This is being investigated. Until the outcome is known we are not in a position to comment.”
Last month, rail maintenance worker Mark Freeman was fined £60 and given three points after a camera snapped him going through a red light to allow an ambulance on an emergency call to pass.
When he refused to pay the fixed penalty the case went to magistrates in Doncaster. But Mr Freeman was advised he would be facing huge legal fees unless he entered a guilty plea.
The law does not make allowances for motorists breaking traffic laws to let emergency vehicles through.
Daily Mail, Wednesday, 10 th August 2005
A driver thought he was doing the right thing by moving over for a police car with flashing blue lights. Martyn Knight was soon thinking again – after the officer booked him for nudging through a red traffic light.
Mr Knight was on his way home from work when he drew up at pelican lights in his Renault Clio. A police car raced up behind and the 19-year-old barman moved on through th elights and on to the side of the road.
The ‘helpful' move of a few feet cost him a £60 fixed penalty and three points on his licence.
“I thought the police car was on a 999 call and needed to pass,” said Mr Knight, from Sketty, near Swansea. “I moved just beyond the lights to allow the police car through. I still can't believe what happened next. The policeman said he thought I'dbeen drinking and gave me a breath test which came up negative. Then he checked my car for faults and couldn't find any. Then he gave me the fixed penalty for jumping the pelican red lights. I thought it was some kind of joke to start with. It was really upsetting.”
His father Alan said: “I am furious. Martyn did the right thing to let this police car through. It looked like it was on an emergency call. Someone tries to do the right thing and gets out of the way for an emergency vehicle and they get three points on their licence. What is going to happen if people stop giving way to ambulances or fire engines because they are afraid of getting booked? We have already spoken to a solicitor and sent a complaint to the Chief Constable.”
A South Wales Police spokesman said a formal complaint about the alleged incident, in Dillwyn Street in the centre of Swansea, had been lodged.
He added: “This is being investigated. Until the outcome is known we are not in a position to comment.”
Last month, rail maintenance worker Mark Freeman was fined £60 and given three points after a camera snapped him going through a red light to allow an ambulance on an emergency call to pass.
When he refused to pay the fixed penalty the case went to magistrates in Doncaster. But Mr Freeman was advised he would be facing huge legal fees unless he entered a guilty plea.
The law does not make allowances for motorists breaking traffic laws to let emergency vehicles through.
I don't know at which point the flash goes off when you run a red light, but I'd hazard it would be enough to get you even if not going completely through. But I can't imagine there are too many cars around where the wheels move 90 degrees to allow a sideways movement from stationary
I'd imagine there are more examples of this.
10 November 2008, 10:34 AM
#71
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In general the trigger loop is about 6 feet past the stop line, its 2 sets of loops, you have to go over both for it to go off. Most ATS cams arm 1 second after red is on.
Just to add something to this which I dont think has been mentioned yet, response drivers are trained how to deal with this situation.
Its not as if the emerg vehicle behind does not know what to do.
Firstly, if needed, you wait it out. Turn the sirens off (these add pressure to the MOP at the front) and when traffic starts to flow again you carry on.
Secondly, you use the other side of the road - this is the most common way around the problem. Its not possible at all junctions (then see above) but its sometimes a much better way to get over the junction than to push the MOPs through a red light.
The response driver should be forward planning their route a good 100 - 200m ahead and as such a good driver will be past the ATS with no problems.
Just to add something to this which I dont think has been mentioned yet, response drivers are trained how to deal with this situation.
Its not as if the emerg vehicle behind does not know what to do.
Firstly, if needed, you wait it out. Turn the sirens off (these add pressure to the MOP at the front) and when traffic starts to flow again you carry on.
Secondly, you use the other side of the road - this is the most common way around the problem. Its not possible at all junctions (then see above) but its sometimes a much better way to get over the junction than to push the MOPs through a red light.
The response driver should be forward planning their route a good 100 - 200m ahead and as such a good driver will be past the ATS with no problems.
10 November 2008, 02:05 PM
#73
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Manchester Evening News and here.
The Daily Telegraph
Pepipoo
All just Internet hearsay, but why would people make this stuff up?
The Daily Telegraph
Pepipoo
All just Internet hearsay, but why would people make this stuff up?
10 November 2008, 02:46 PM
#74
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Had a conversation with our claims inspector this morning, he is a senior magistrate at Mansfield Magistrates Court.
He's never known a magistrate uphold a red light camera fine where there is proven evidence that the vehicle moved through the light to allow an emergency vehicle through.
The two factors he would need is proof the car was moving at very low speed, which the camera would show and proof of an emergency vehicle attending a response call.
If the fine was upheld in his opinion it would be dissmissed on appeal.
Cheers
Lee
He's never known a magistrate uphold a red light camera fine where there is proven evidence that the vehicle moved through the light to allow an emergency vehicle through.
The two factors he would need is proof the car was moving at very low speed, which the camera would show and proof of an emergency vehicle attending a response call.
If the fine was upheld in his opinion it would be dissmissed on appeal.
Cheers
Lee
10 November 2008, 07:45 PM
#75
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So, you sit there - if needed - two tones off to let everyone know you are happy to wait it out. Light goes green, 999s back on and away you go with the flow of traffic.
It happens, not that often admitidly - but never the less it does.
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