DCR59

Must admit, I love all this banter between us and the Scots.

But really we bring all this on ourselves.
Every World Cup our media builds it all up, so much so, that 3/4 of the nation actually believe we ARE going to win it.
Then, every time we blow it ............big time. Always the same.

No wonder they laugh at us.


And really it's not just the Scots who hate us.
Go on holiday anywhere in Europe and you'll see the groups of lager louts with their English tops on, pissed and fighting. It's just embarrassing.
No wonder everyone hates us.
And it's not jealousy, maybe pity.


But back to the football.
Germany 3 wins
Italy 4 wins
Argentina 2 wins.
England 1 win.

Are we so inferior in football term to deserve this.
They're all countries we've fought in war, and defeated. But that was with the help of the Scots, Welsh, Irish, and more.
Maybe if we want to be more successful at football it has to be a British team.



Dave

SiPie

DCR59

I was at Hampden in 1978 waving off a Scottish team, a team that Ally McLeod (RIP) had made every Scot believe, need only turn up in Argentina to win the world cup

Classic, sometimes we all have to laugh at the home nations

Alan C

Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of expectation. What's the point of going into a match or competition thinking ... let's see how we do?

What the problem is that when we do get it wrong.... the media are the first to slate and call for sackings etc.... that's the up and down part of this.

Tam was right... the media is as far removed from me as can be and true England football fans are there through hell and high water... if you're not going to be highly positive, supportive and supremely confident then there's no point going.

English club teams do extremely well (I include the mix of world class overseas talent here) but when you have England stars peppered through all the best club sides in Europe, then we SHOULD expect to do well.

If they were all really crap and played for lower league teams and (please let me indulge myself here ) Scotland..... then you'd rightly have a lower expectation that meant anything remotely edging to a decent win against a decent side would be heaven.

The England team has underperformed for so long, with real world class talent, that the expectation sometimes gets hold... I mean, who's getting a little excited now with the run of club and country teams... is your expectations and hopes raised a little? Of course... enjoy it.. just don't brag until you're in a position of power...

DCR59

Alan, I'm as guilty as anyone. Everytime a major competition comes along, I'm one of those 3/4's, I start to believe.
But your right we always end up underperforming. Why?
I can't see any reason for it, except media pressure. Does it get to the team eventually. Does the German / Italian teams get the same treatment from their home media? I don't know. But ours seem more interested in who's ******* who, and WAG's (I'd ban all the WAG's from the host Country - it doesn't help)

Bit off topic there.
But Maradona cheated us in the first goal, but his second was a peach (just about as good as Archie Gemmills against Holland)
I put that in since I've got a few friends North of the Border.

PS. Finally if you do own a Subaru, you'd want to live in Scotland too. Fantastic driving roads, and always nearly empty from other traffic.
Need to get back up there soon; maybe springtime for the Jim Clark Rally.

Dave.

Alan C

Dave that was some exceptional fence sitting there.....

angrynorth

There is a slight descriptive error with the whole "hand of God" phrase. It should actually read "hand of a footballing god".

No matter what your view on his fatty, coke consuming, nefarious personality; Maradonna is one of if not the greatest players ever to play the game. An absolute genius.

Pele, Maradonna, Best, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Scholes (the only player Zidane feared) and the new addition Ronaldo (the one without the penchant for pies and Mars bars) are all outstanding players and true genii. If you take off the red and white crossed lenses for a second and watch their talent and skill it is indisputable.

Common signs of genius are petulance, exuberance, addictive personality disorder, arrogance and a relentless self-belief. All of which Maradonna possesses in vast quantities. Those qualities alone don't make him a true genius, but if you add in his ability and desire to win it most certainly does.

angrynorth

PS, I'm not Scottish so there is no bias in that respect.

I am a Mancunian, Manchester United fan though. As most of the match going football fans will know, the red inhabitants of the (admittedly insular and "chip on the shoulder" type) Republik of Manchester look down upon the England team and offer little support for the England football team. We even like to chant pro-Argie songs to the little-Ingerlunder supporters of various teams thanks to the Argie influence we've had in the team over the past few years.

That all boils down to the ABU (Anyone But United) brigade that look for United players as the first scapegoat should anything go wrong with England (Beckham - WC 1998, Neville - Euro's, Ronaldo and Rooney - 06 WC ad nauseum). You don't like us or respect our players = we don't like you.

I want to declare though that this possible bias has absolutely no influence on my opinion of Maradonna. When he scored that handball goal I was just a kid and I was gutted (I didn't know better ), but even at the time I watched what else he did, saw the other goal and was completely mesmerised. For a couple of years later as a 6 or 7 year old I idolised him and watched him whenever I could. I was even lucky enough to watch him play in the flesh in a friendly at Old Trafford many years back.

As a person, I imagine he is a total C U Next Tuesday, but as a footballer he is the complete God Endowed-with Neverending Impenetrable Unbelievable Skill.

Better than Pele in my eyes.

fatherpierre

He was head and shoulders above Pele.

There's no player ever that can sit near the cheating tw@t in terms of all round ability. He had everything, and then some.

The rest of your post was rubbish though

Like anyone cares what Man U 'fans' sing lol.

Alan C

I'm pleased you admitted that as it makes throwing those statements back at you worthless.

Your obvious arrogance and unpatriotic stance puts you firmly alongside those
Jocks we've spent this thread slating. I'm positive this means absolutely nothing to you and you'll brush this off without a problem.

What you will find is that this self perpetuating arrogance is exactly why you feel 'we don't like you'.. simply adding more arrogance and a 'stuff you all' attitudes makes it worse.

This blinkered attitude also shows when you name only Man U players on your scapegoat list. When it's obvious to everyone else that every other England player has their share of the slagging off. never mind the stats where the majority of the players have come from Man U.

I'm afraid on top of all your insular and blinkered comments, you've also fallen face first for the media comments that represent the thoughts of ZERO true English supporters... Tam... you were right again.

zip106

I think you're all being a bit harsh.
I know she's made some crap records, looks like a honed race horse, nicks other peoples kids from Third world countries and has just divorced a Mockney for the second/third time, but she doesn't mean any harm.

I never thought one popstress could divide a SN nation like this.

angrynorth

Aww, thanks for the nice comments. I actually feel quite proud to be part of this insular and cocky brigade and your added disdain for me and my kind only serves to reinforce that honour.

For the record though, you might have it a bit backwards. Pre the 1998 Beckham incident where the small town fans were calling for his head, giving out death threats and burning effigies of Mr Beckham, you would find that most United fans were also England fans. Bryan Robson cemented that for us.

It was the backlash and vitriol that was dished out post '98 WC that caused many United fans to turn their backs on England. Before that, it didn't really matter as the scapegoat thing was dished out quite evenly amongst lots of club's players. Since that though, many little-Inglunders have overwhelmingly looked for a United player to blame for England's shortcomings, and those fans along with the gutter press go after them with unparalleled levels of hatred and disdain. What I'm saying is that you lot hated us before we started calling on our club loyalty and returned the hate.

You just have to look at the whole "Winker" thing at the last world cup. Rooney totally deserved to be sent off, he reacted in an unnecessary and potentially violent way and was spotted by the referee. Ronaldo merely appealed for some kind of punishment in the way that every player does. Admittedly the wink was a bit weird and certainly incendiary, but Rooney wasn't sent off because of him, and he wasn't the reason for England's **** performance and ejection from the competition.

But you lot armed with your super-soaraway-Sun and TalkShi!te radio went after him rather than addressing the real issues England have.

The absolute best thing about this whole thing though is that United have always thrived on the siege mentality. United players are groomed to be hated by opposition fans and they deal with that by sticking it to you. It motivates the core of the team and drives them to perform so they can prove you wrong.

We are the team that you all love to hate and we love that.

You are missing out though, England could and would benefit from the core dedicated United supporters. If you've ever been to a game where United are the visiting team, you will know and you should admit (because most people do) that our away support is amongst the best in the land. Yes our home support is dire and full of losers in Jester hats, but the lads that do the aways were always part of the proper England support, IE none of this drum and dambusters rubbish, but original hearty full 90minute singing.

We all turned our backs on England when you turned your backs on us, and I can't see it changing in the near future as long as you keep coming after us. Like the damned - but begrudgingly respected Scousers, we have an incredible sense of local identity which far surpasses national identity. Something which I doubt you will understand.

I know I'm arrogant on this particular topic by the way, so you don'have to come back with that one, I also doubt you could say anything that will change my view of these events or my perception of us from the small town brigade.

By the way, if you discount my feeling that Maradonna is an all time great and a genius just because I'm a United fan and openly insular then it is you who has their eyes closed and is blind to the truth. Globally, none United fans with no allegiance to Argentina or England have been saying this for decades so why can't you see it?

I'll happily admit that Frank Lampard is a player that I admire, which is a difficult thing to say as a United fan. I think he's a bit of a bellend on a personal level, and he definitely takes more shots on goal than anyone should ever be allowed to, but in my opinion he is the lynchpin of one of the best sides out there at the moment. Fabregas is another one, an unbelievable player in a great, if wimpy and spoilt child-like side. You have to overcome your club and national allegiances if you want to recognise talent.

Edit:
One more I forgot to add that list. Thierry Henry, God I hate that w@nker, but he was one hell of a player in the Premiership, I'd have killed to have him play for us, again one of the true greats.

Sidenote: I'm the least anti-scouse, proper Manc you are likely to meet so this has nothing to do with M62 rivalry, but Steven Gerrard? Give me a break! One of the most overrated players to ever grace a field. Never shows up to big games, a total hypocrite lambasting Ronaldo and Drogba for diving whilst doing it all the time himself, always going for the Hollywood pass yet only manages a completion rate of about 60%, can't properly dictate a midfield. He scores quite a few stormers and pulls the rats out of the mire on a regular basis, but all that does is hide his inadequacies! </rant, sorry Liverpool chums >

angrynorth

Oh, and don't get me started on John "The Lionheart" Terry. A player from the same mould as Terry Butcher, something which England fans bizarrely want to see.

Not much real talent, all studs, elbows and grit but no composure and little skill. Again the Sun baiting little-Inglunder is responsible for this type of player always coming through the ranks. For some reason England fans always want to see a battler, they want to see someone come off the field with blood on their shirt and that is enough for them.

Whilst I can understand that, as being a United fan I love Ji-Sung Park because he sweats and toils for us, end to end and "gets" the mentality. It doesn't mean I'd like to see him in the team every week lining up against skillful sides.

England lack creativity and composure, there's loads of heart and determination, but that means nothing when you are playing "footballing" sides, they'll just walk rings around you. Watching that England v Germany game the other day was like watching a mid-table premiership game... loads of clod-hoppers and thumpers but little creativity and flair. I know you will just take this as a United fan comment, but Michael Carrick is exactly the kind of player England need, creative, a good reader of the game, great passer. He's a bit of a wimp and won't put many tackles in, but that is not his job. In my opinion he's overlooked to fit in Lampard and Gerrard who are pretty much the same player. This always leads to a slowdown or stutter in midfield which results in the lack of forward play. Also, one of the biggest mistakes England made was forcing Scholes out because he had a goal drought, if you thought that was a good decision and didn't recognise everything else he did you need your bumps feeling.

Theo Walcott might address the creativity problem in a couple of years as he certainly has the eye, flair and pace but he needs to bulk up a bit yet. Ashley Cole also has the ability to drive forward and create, but he ends up being hampered by the midfield.

Come to think of it, I'd actually really like England to succeed, but until they stop with the scapegoats, begin to grow some ***** and drop the Hollywood names and stop making lame excuses for being rubbish I think I'll stay on the fence.

If you can admit to any of those failings or at least see my point about the whole breeding of the bruiser type player over the skillful player then I'll feel a little bit better going to sleep tonight.

How did I end up ranting about England by the way? I've not commented on England for years.

angrynorth

Some sense.


(I know you don't care, and I appreciate it )

Alan C

So Beckham, Rooney etc were slagged off because they were Man U players rather than being derided for their actions? Don't make me laugh any more than you already have done. Again, you read the back pages of the Star and the Sun and suddenly up come the burning tyres and out come molotov cocktails... The 'You Lot' mentality shines through. So your pride is well founded. Congratulations for creating a tiered society when none needs to exist.

If the core Utd supporters are anything like you, then England is better off without that baggage and all the ultra analysis.. especially as your loyalty is so thin and your overconfidence palpable.

Why on earth would I consider your view on Maradona as being anything to do with you supporting Man U... you're so full of yourself and completely overate your personal standing.

I totally agree on Maradona's standing as a Football great. Why would my club support or histoiry in football (of which you know nothing) even be added into the equation?

I'm not even going to attempt at arguing a point regarding Gerard or any other player as you're so entrenched as to be lost.

You really do need to take those Man U specs off. You seem to have turned being a fan of football into an overt (I'd add criminal and dangerous to the extremes) and measured past time. A mini-Army, if you will, that gives football the bad name it deserves sometimes.

And all this reverse Physcology! Just a barrier.

fatherpierre

I know she's a ropey bit of mutton, but she's back on the market with £300m in her back pocket

Luan Pra bang

Angry north you have some real issues and a typically scottish style chip on your soldier. ManU have been praised the length and breath of the UK for their football achievments Especially in the days when they were the only british club really competing in europe. You seem to fail to see how highly regarded the team is even if some people dislike the city and its people.

Fergie is regarded as one of the best managers in the world and many have wanted him to be the England coach. Many ManU players have got away with bad performances over and over again with very little of the critisicm that has been aimed at Gerrard and Lampard. You seem to be so completely delusional that the reality will never penetrate your insular thoughts. I am also impressed that you have managed to see Gerrard widely regarded all over Europe as one of Englands best players as overrated. You should try to wake up and see the reality a bit more then you may not be so bitter and enjoy life a bit more.

Alan C

This was a classic too. Like Mancs are the only one's to have some form of local Identity..that us inferior 'non-Mancs' can't possibly understand?? Wow. You'll be telling us where to pray next...

I agree with Luan - Your instant judgements of others and 'superior than though' mentality do point to someone with issues. Like it wasn't obvious from the other gems...

Such as;

• We all turned our backs on England when you turned your backs on us
• You are missing out though, England could and would benefit from the core dedicated United supporters. (my personal favourite)
• But you lot armed with your super-soaraway-Sun