Today's a great day for democracy
04 December 2008, 04:20 PM
#31
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If you listened to Jeremy Vine at lunchtime, he listed several examples.
One was the murder of the model in Croydon (Sally-Anne Bowman), whose killer was caught due to his DNA being taken after a fight in a pub.
There were other examples, but I can't recall them all. One was a murderer whose sister was stopped for drink driving and they matched the murder DNA to him somehow and he wasn't even a suspect.
I agree the potential for mistakes is huge, but then the miscarriages of justice that already happen must be far greater.
One was the murder of the model in Croydon (Sally-Anne Bowman), whose killer was caught due to his DNA being taken after a fight in a pub.
There were other examples, but I can't recall them all. One was a murderer whose sister was stopped for drink driving and they matched the murder DNA to him somehow and he wasn't even a suspect.
I agree the potential for mistakes is huge, but then the miscarriages of justice that already happen must be far greater.
Didn't the murderer you quoted have his dna matched AFTER the offence. i.e. it had nothing to do with having dna taken for a previous offence (he was in a fight and dna taken matched those from the murder).
Even without DNA, I think he'd have been caught anyway as he had a string of other sexual offences and he was a local. Only a matter of time before he became a suspect but the dna ensured he became a suspect earlier on in the process.
OH, and be carefuly quoting jeremy vine's show, it's often dumbed down bbc tabloid journalism half the time with weak interviewing and many incorrect "facts" and poor research. A show for creating discussion points, sure, but don't take anything they say as gospel. It's a shame, as the bbc used to be very highly regarded news-wise but those days are long gone.
Last edited by Dracoro; 04 December 2008 at 04:23 PM.
04 December 2008, 04:25 PM
#32
I just don't see why the police should have a record of someone who is not a criminal.
I understand there are others who disagree and I am sure they have all gone to their local police station to volonteer their DNA samples.
To them I say - good for you.
04 December 2008, 04:50 PM
#34
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Lets face facts. It's only going to be a very small number of truly "innocent" people who's DNA will be saved.
If you've got yourself arrested in the first place, the chances are you were up to no good!
They can have my DNA / finger prints on file if they want, I've nothing to hide!
Just an idea, but if EVERYONE had to do this, then would people think first before robbing / burgalary / assualt / rape etc etc? Doesn't take much to leave DNA evidence!
If you've got yourself arrested in the first place, the chances are you were up to no good!
They can have my DNA / finger prints on file if they want, I've nothing to hide!
Just an idea, but if EVERYONE had to do this, then would people think first before robbing / burgalary / assualt / rape etc etc? Doesn't take much to leave DNA evidence!
04 December 2008, 04:58 PM
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If you listened to Jeremy Vine at lunchtime, he listed several examples.
One was the murder of the model in Croydon (Sally-Anne Bowman), whose killer was caught due to his DNA being taken after a fight in a pub.
There were other examples, but I can't recall them all. One was a murderer whose sister was stopped for drink driving and they matched the murder DNA to him somehow and he wasn't even a suspect.
I agree the potential for mistakes is huge, but then the miscarriages of justice that already happen must be far greater.
One was the murder of the model in Croydon (Sally-Anne Bowman), whose killer was caught due to his DNA being taken after a fight in a pub.
There were other examples, but I can't recall them all. One was a murderer whose sister was stopped for drink driving and they matched the murder DNA to him somehow and he wasn't even a suspect.
I agree the potential for mistakes is huge, but then the miscarriages of justice that already happen must be far greater.
04 December 2008, 05:00 PM
#36
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And if you had the death penalty in place that would kill off crime over night, just like it has in the USA. :rollyes:
04 December 2008, 05:02 PM
#37
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Lets face facts. It's only going to be a very small number of truly "innocent" people who's DNA will be saved.
If you've got yourself arrested in the first place, the chances are you were up to no good!
They can have my DNA / finger prints on file if they want, I've nothing to hide!
Just an idea, but if EVERYONE had to do this, then would people think first before robbing / burgalary / assualt / rape etc etc? Doesn't take much to leave DNA evidence!
If you've got yourself arrested in the first place, the chances are you were up to no good!
They can have my DNA / finger prints on file if they want, I've nothing to hide!
Just an idea, but if EVERYONE had to do this, then would people think first before robbing / burgalary / assualt / rape etc etc? Doesn't take much to leave DNA evidence!
a) You don't need to be *arrested* for your dna to be taken.
b) And if everyone is on the database then a *black market* will come into being where you can get other people's dna *planted* at the scene of a crime.
BUt, if you've done nothing wrong etc etc ....... yeah right!
Dave
04 December 2008, 05:04 PM
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04 December 2008, 05:05 PM
#39
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Sorry, I disagree. If you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.
Many marders/rapes etc have been solved from having DNA obtained from a relatively minor crime.
When your house gets broken into, your family harmed and your Scoob stolen, would you be happy if they can't catch them because the criminal's DNA has been destroyed because they were not convicted last time?
Many marders/rapes etc have been solved from having DNA obtained from a relatively minor crime.
When your house gets broken into, your family harmed and your Scoob stolen, would you be happy if they can't catch them because the criminal's DNA has been destroyed because they were not convicted last time?
Dna cannot be used to convict people, it is only an indicator/ clue that the feds use. (or so they tell us
)Mart
04 December 2008, 05:09 PM
#40
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You are all very defensive, anyone would think you had part time jobs as master criminals.
You will never get a perfect solution in the fight against crime.
If you have not been arrested, you DO NOT have to give a DNA sample, its volentary.
How many innocent law abiding people have enemies who will go out and commit crime in order to leave YOUR DNA at the crime scene?
Get real will ya!
You will never get a perfect solution in the fight against crime.
If you have not been arrested, you DO NOT have to give a DNA sample, its volentary.
How many innocent law abiding people have enemies who will go out and commit crime in order to leave YOUR DNA at the crime scene?
Get real will ya!
04 December 2008, 05:09 PM
#41
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Lets face facts. It's only going to be a very small number of truly "innocent" people who's DNA will be saved.
If you've got yourself arrested in the first place, the chances are you were up to no good!
They can have my DNA / finger prints on file if they want, I've nothing to hide!
Just an idea, but if EVERYONE had to do this, then would people think first before robbing / burgalary / assualt / rape etc etc? Doesn't take much to leave DNA evidence!
If you've got yourself arrested in the first place, the chances are you were up to no good!
They can have my DNA / finger prints on file if they want, I've nothing to hide!
Just an idea, but if EVERYONE had to do this, then would people think first before robbing / burgalary / assualt / rape etc etc? Doesn't take much to leave DNA evidence!
And so down the slippery slope to dictatorship we slide.
There are a very well known race who had a similar idea used 60 odd years ago, we dont look on it favorably now, so why should we suggest it again.
Mart
04 December 2008, 05:12 PM
#43
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I guess if we need the EU to sort this type of thing out, it is possible that there is something basically wrong with our "democracy".
I just don't see why the police should have a record of someone who is not a criminal.
I understand there are others who disagree and I am sure they have all gone to their local police station to volonteer their DNA samples.
To them I say - good for you.
I just don't see why the police should have a record of someone who is not a criminal.
I understand there are others who disagree and I am sure they have all gone to their local police station to volonteer their DNA samples.
To them I say - good for you.
04 December 2008, 05:13 PM
#44
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You are all very defensive, anyone would think you had part time jobs as master criminals.
You will never get a perfect solution in the fight against crime.
If you have not been arrested, you DO NOT have to give a DNA sample, its volentary.
How many innocent law abiding people have enemies who will go out and commit crime in order to leave YOUR DNA at the crime scene?
Get real will ya!
You will never get a perfect solution in the fight against crime.
If you have not been arrested, you DO NOT have to give a DNA sample, its volentary.
How many innocent law abiding people have enemies who will go out and commit crime in order to leave YOUR DNA at the crime scene?
Get real will ya!
no one has to give DNA voluntarily, BUT the whoile crux of this case is people
who have been arrested, and PROVEN INNOCENT have had ther DNA retained.
Once you are arrested, you have no tights to retain DNA, and it WILL be
taken BY FORCE if needs be.
Mart
04 December 2008, 05:14 PM
#45
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FFS some of you need a reality check 
Its soon to be 2009, the world we all live in has changed. And all this namby pamby softly softly PC bollox has taken us into this moral less society we have today.
Its time the country got real and grew some *****.
Its soon to be 2009, the world we all live in has changed. And all this namby pamby softly softly PC bollox has taken us into this moral less society we have today.
Its time the country got real and grew some *****.
04 December 2008, 05:18 PM
#46
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
But don't worry - I didn't do anything wrong so I had nothing to fear
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
But don't worry - I didn't do anything wrong so I had nothing to fear
Godwin's Law.
Now stop being silly.
M
04 December 2008, 05:19 PM
#47
04 December 2008, 05:20 PM
#48
Lets face it if the police refused to take part in giving samples then you know ther is something wrong with the system.
We are being led to believe that DNA is 100% fool proof and that is very far from being the case.
And thats before we take human error into account, which as the use and collection of said data increases will also increase accordingly.
So if by some mix up ones DNA becomes linked with a serious crime and the jury are told catagorically that it was the defendants and its fool proof.
Guilty as charged
We are being led to believe that DNA is 100% fool proof and that is very far from being the case.
And thats before we take human error into account, which as the use and collection of said data increases will also increase accordingly.
So if by some mix up ones DNA becomes linked with a serious crime and the jury are told catagorically that it was the defendants and its fool proof.
Guilty as charged
All police officers give a DNA sample. The difference is that it goes on a different database. So you're half right.
You cannot be convicted on DNA evidence alone. And if you claimed a mix-up it wouldn't be hard to get retested.
M
04 December 2008, 05:24 PM
#49
Please re read your post, and look at what you have said!
no one has to give DNA voluntarily, BUT the whoile crux of this case is people
who have been arrested, and PROVEN INNOCENT have had ther DNA retained.
Once you are arrested, you have no tights to retain DNA, and it WILL be
taken BY FORCE if needs be.
Mart
no one has to give DNA voluntarily, BUT the whoile crux of this case is people
who have been arrested, and PROVEN INNOCENT have had ther DNA retained.
Once you are arrested, you have no tights to retain DNA, and it WILL be
taken BY FORCE if needs be.
Mart
By and large people are not proven innocent, but assumed innocent because the prosecution failed to prove the case against them. Which could be for any number of reasons. Legally there is no difference, morally there a massive gulf between acquitted and didn't actually do it. I'd quote some examples, but I'd quickly be on the wrong end of the libel laws.
Last figure I heard, 40% of Crown Court trials result in acquittal: are you seriously telling me that 40% of the people in the dock didn't do what they are accused of? If it was even 5% I'd be very surprised.
Edit: just noticed this from the story as reported by the telegraph:
One of the victors is Michael Marper, 45, who was arrested in March 2001 and charged with harassing his partner, but the case was dropped three months later after the two were reconciled. He had no previous convictions.
M
Last edited by _Meridian_; 04 December 2008 at 05:30 PM.
04 December 2008, 05:25 PM
#50
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Please re read your post, and look at what you have said!
no one has to give DNA voluntarily, BUT the whoile crux of this case is people
who have been arrested, and PROVEN INNOCENT have had ther DNA retained.
Once you are arrested, you have no tights to retain DNA, and it WILL be
taken BY FORCE if needs be.
Mart
no one has to give DNA voluntarily, BUT the whoile crux of this case is people
who have been arrested, and PROVEN INNOCENT have had ther DNA retained.
Once you are arrested, you have no tights to retain DNA, and it WILL be
taken BY FORCE if needs be.
Mart
If you have been arrested, YOU MUST give DNA if the police request it.
If you are NOT arrested, if they ask you for a DNA sample, you can volunteer to give it but you DON'T have to.
Nobody is PROVEN INNOCENT in court.
You are either PROVEN TO BE GUILTY or NOT PROVEN TO BE GUILTY.
Just because the courts could not prove it, it does not actually prove a person is innocent.
And whats a pair of tights got to do with it? Do you wear them?
Last edited by wagrain; 04 December 2008 at 05:28 PM.
04 December 2008, 05:43 PM
#51
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Not many. But I bet that criminals will collect DNA (e.g. dirty glasses from pubs) that they can subsequently plant at a crime scene. Possibly so much random DNA to confuse the authorities that the case becomes uneconomical. Also as stated above, no doubt I would have to prove my innocence at my expense, a bit like speed camera charges now.
04 December 2008, 05:48 PM
#52
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Sorry, I disagree. If you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.
Many marders/rapes etc have been solved from having DNA obtained from a relatively minor crime.
When your house gets broken into, your family harmed and your Scoob stolen, would you be happy if they can't catch them because the criminal's DNA has been destroyed because they were not convicted last time?
Many marders/rapes etc have been solved from having DNA obtained from a relatively minor crime.
When your house gets broken into, your family harmed and your Scoob stolen, would you be happy if they can't catch them because the criminal's DNA has been destroyed because they were not convicted last time?
And I would want to take and keep the DNA of people entering this country from certain other countries that are known to support and/or train terrorists.
I accept there will be some mistakes along the way. dl
04 December 2008, 06:02 PM
#53
Thank God we have that wonderful institution - the EU - to protect the democratic rights of the majority of Britons who do not support her majesties government
God Save the Queen!
04 December 2008, 06:03 PM
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[quote=wagrain;8322958]
If you have not been arrested, you DO NOT have to give a DNA sample, its volentary.
quote]
No one disputes this, however ..the case in question, is that persons who
have not been proven guilty, have had there DNA retained.
Once you have been arrested, however you loose the "R" ight, to retain
your DNA.
Mart
If you have not been arrested, you DO NOT have to give a DNA sample, its volentary.
quote]
No one disputes this, however ..the case in question, is that persons who
have not been proven guilty, have had there DNA retained.
Once you have been arrested, however you loose the "R" ight,
to retain your DNA.
Mart
04 December 2008, 06:20 PM
#55
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I HAVE been arrested and I CERTAINLY wasn't "up to no good" as was shown when CPS refused to prosecute me.
But MY DNA would now be on record if people like you had your way.
FFS THINK before you type, please.
There are literally THOUSANDS arrested daily who never get prosecuted, for one simple reason: they aren't guilty, and the police investigation shows it.
04 December 2008, 06:29 PM
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04 December 2008, 07:02 PM
#57
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It is most certainly not a good day for democracy because the democratically elected governments policy has been overridden by a non elected bunch in a different country
It's one thing to mass debate over the good and bad of storing DNA information on innocent people but to say it is a good thing for democracy is somewhat bonkers
It's one thing to mass debate over the good and bad of storing DNA information on innocent people but to say it is a good thing for democracy is somewhat bonkers
04 December 2008, 07:32 PM
#58
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It is most certainly not a good day for democracy because the democratically elected governments policy has been overridden by a non elected bunch in a different country
It's one thing to mass debate over the good and bad of storing DNA information on innocent people but to say it is a good thing for democracy is somewhat bonkers
It's one thing to mass debate over the good and bad of storing DNA information on innocent people but to say it is a good thing for democracy is somewhat bonkers
04 December 2008, 08:31 PM
#59
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Rubbish. Wake up and smell the coffee. One set are slowly but surely eroding all our civil liberies, the other are trying to protect them.
Who cares which lot were elected by a minority, or which lot weren't, I know which lot I'd trust and it ain't Lying Labour!
Who cares which lot were elected by a minority, or which lot weren't, I know which lot I'd trust and it ain't Lying Labour!
04 December 2008, 08:45 PM
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Personally, I would favour a national database of DNA and fingerprints - of every single person in the country.
Imagine how many crimes would be solved?
A better deterent to committing a crime I have yet to see.
This is my opinion.
Imagine how many crimes would be solved?
A better deterent to committing a crime I have yet to see.
This is my opinion.