Today's a great day for democracy
04 December 2008, 08:50 PM
#61
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That would have been deemed as trolling a few weeks ago, Pete
From a professional point of view, all I can say is that lots of people get convicted from DNA traces being found - most of them are from people who have previous convictions though.
Mainly burglaries and other more 'serious' crimes too. It's rare for an innocent person that has been arrested and then eliminated to be found from DNA and then linked to a new crime. Most offenders are of the repeat kind.
Difficult one.
Last edited by fatherpierre; 04 December 2008 at 08:51 PM.
04 December 2008, 09:16 PM
#62
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You make a valid point regarding repeat offending being the main benefit, but my way would see the 1st conviction happening far earlier in the repeat offenders cycle ..... I would be happy for my details to be stored in a database.
04 December 2008, 10:22 PM
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Why don't all of us just get a spare set of house keys and car keys cut, then just stick them in the post to Her Majesty's Government. That way if the need arises they can pop round whenever they like and turn the place over.
The rate at which these Labour control freaks have been creating new rules and regulations will eventually result in the lot of us being on some DNA database if nobody stands up for our rights.
And Martin2005, do you really contend that whilst Scotland has its own Parliament that our 'government' is truly democratically elected?
Kevin
The rate at which these Labour control freaks have been creating new rules and regulations will eventually result in the lot of us being on some DNA database if nobody stands up for our rights.
And Martin2005, do you really contend that whilst Scotland has its own Parliament that our 'government' is truly democratically elected?
Kevin
04 December 2008, 10:35 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by SunnySideUp View Post
Personally, I would favour a national database of DNA and fingerprints - of every single person in the country.
Personally, I would favour a national database of DNA and fingerprints - of every single person in the country.
One of the concerns is that DNA testing can determine who is suseptable to which hereditary diseases. This can in turn be used by employers, insurers and the like to determine who they will employ/insure.
The government tells us the DNA database is secure and it could never be leaked and used in this way but going on their track record I'd say it's only a matter of time before a national DNA database is in the wrong hands.
Call me paranoid but i've still yet to be given a convincing reason why the police should have my DNA.
04 December 2008, 11:27 PM
#69
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Who's being paranoid, I mean, it would never happen, would it. Would it
Plot summary for
Gattaca (1997) More at IMDb Pro »
In the not-too-distant future, a less than perfect man wants to travel to the stars. Society has categorized Vincent Freeman as less than suitable given his genetic make-up and he has become one of the underclass of humans that are only useful for menial jobs. To move ahead, he assumes the identity of Jerome Morrow, a perfect genetic specimen who is a paraplegic as a result of a fall. With some professional advice, Vincent learns to deceive DNA and urine sample testing. When a colleague is killed he is finally scheduled for a space mission, but a colleague suspects his origins and the police begin an investigation. Written by garykmcd
Gattaca Corp. is an aerospace firm in the future. During this time society analyzes your DNA and determines where you belong in life. Ethan Hawke's character was born with a congenital heart condition which would cast him out of getting a chance to travel in space. So in turn he assumes the identity of an athlete who has genes that would allow him to achieve his dream of space travel. Written by {AVision200@aol.com}
Vincent is one of the last "natural" babies born into a sterile, genetically-enhanced world, where life expectancy and disease likelihood are ascertained at birth. Myopic and due to die at 30, he has no chance of a career in a society that now discriminates against your genes, instead of your gender, race or religion. Going underground, he assumes the identity of Jerome, crippled in an accident, and achieves prominence in the Gattaca Corporation, where he is selected for his lifelong desire: a manned mission to Saturn. Constantly passing gene tests by diligently using samples of Jerome's hair, skin, blood and urine, his now-perfect world is thrown into increasing desperation, his dream within reach, when the mission director is killed - and he carelessly loses an eyelash at the scene! Certain that they know the murderer's ID, but unable to track down the former Vincent, the police start to close in, with extra searches, and new gene tests. With the once-in-a-lifetime launch only days away, Vincent must avoid arousing suspicion, while passing the tests, evading the police, and not knowing whom he can trust... Written by Cynan Rees {cynanrees@hotmail.com}
Plot summary for
Gattaca (1997) More at IMDb Pro »
In the not-too-distant future, a less than perfect man wants to travel to the stars. Society has categorized Vincent Freeman as less than suitable given his genetic make-up and he has become one of the underclass of humans that are only useful for menial jobs. To move ahead, he assumes the identity of Jerome Morrow, a perfect genetic specimen who is a paraplegic as a result of a fall. With some professional advice, Vincent learns to deceive DNA and urine sample testing. When a colleague is killed he is finally scheduled for a space mission, but a colleague suspects his origins and the police begin an investigation. Written by garykmcd
Gattaca Corp. is an aerospace firm in the future. During this time society analyzes your DNA and determines where you belong in life. Ethan Hawke's character was born with a congenital heart condition which would cast him out of getting a chance to travel in space. So in turn he assumes the identity of an athlete who has genes that would allow him to achieve his dream of space travel. Written by {AVision200@aol.com}
Vincent is one of the last "natural" babies born into a sterile, genetically-enhanced world, where life expectancy and disease likelihood are ascertained at birth. Myopic and due to die at 30, he has no chance of a career in a society that now discriminates against your genes, instead of your gender, race or religion. Going underground, he assumes the identity of Jerome, crippled in an accident, and achieves prominence in the Gattaca Corporation, where he is selected for his lifelong desire: a manned mission to Saturn. Constantly passing gene tests by diligently using samples of Jerome's hair, skin, blood and urine, his now-perfect world is thrown into increasing desperation, his dream within reach, when the mission director is killed - and he carelessly loses an eyelash at the scene! Certain that they know the murderer's ID, but unable to track down the former Vincent, the police start to close in, with extra searches, and new gene tests. With the once-in-a-lifetime launch only days away, Vincent must avoid arousing suspicion, while passing the tests, evading the police, and not knowing whom he can trust... Written by Cynan Rees {cynanrees@hotmail.com}
04 December 2008, 11:58 PM
#70
05 December 2008, 12:15 AM
#71
We get loads of DNA & Fingerprint hits back from people who were not considered as suspects. And its not just major crime - a lot of it is run of the mill thefts, frauds and damages.
Remember DNA alone can not convict as it is not 100% unique - even fingerprints (which are) will need other supporting evidence.
And, to be honest, there is no chance of mixing up samples when they are taken from a suspect/person as the info is added to the system straight away in the case of fingerprints and then cross matched against the DNA sample when it is sequenced.
Remember DNA alone can not convict as it is not 100% unique - even fingerprints (which are) will need other supporting evidence.
And, to be honest, there is no chance of mixing up samples when they are taken from a suspect/person as the info is added to the system straight away in the case of fingerprints and then cross matched against the DNA sample when it is sequenced.
05 December 2008, 07:33 AM
#72
The government tells us the DNA database is secure and it could never be leaked and used in this way but going on their track record I'd say it's only a matter of time before a national DNA database is in the wrong hands.
Even if it was leaked, the information is useless: see above.
Is there any chance we could restrict this argument to just the people who actually understand how DNA profiles work?
M
05 December 2008, 08:06 AM
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05 December 2008, 08:40 AM
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05 December 2008, 08:44 AM
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The issue with "mankind" is that we have a hunger for information, this has always been the case and is part of our make up, great developments have been made through the appropriation of knowledge. The trouble is that the desire for information grows with every advance. It will never stop, but at best just be tempered by cases such as the thread starters.
It will start out as "junk DNA" then before you know it science will improve the current methodology in crime detection but require more DNA to enable it to work effectively. The Government will launch a PR campaign, scientists will bang on about the benefits and how your civil liberties won't be affected and before you can even say "Oh bollox" it'll be too late... and once they have the full DNA string, well.... that's a whole new thread
It will start out as "junk DNA" then before you know it science will improve the current methodology in crime detection but require more DNA to enable it to work effectively. The Government will launch a PR campaign, scientists will bang on about the benefits and how your civil liberties won't be affected and before you can even say "Oh bollox" it'll be too late... and once they have the full DNA string, well.... that's a whole new thread
05 December 2008, 04:02 PM
#76
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Les
Last edited by Leslie; 05 December 2008 at 04:03 PM.
05 December 2008, 04:06 PM
#77
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Les
05 December 2008, 04:11 PM
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Is there any chance we could restrict this argument to just the people who actually understand how DNA profiles work?
Nice to know we have an expert in DNA on the forums though
05 December 2008, 04:21 PM
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It was a good judgement, last time I looked Britain was still a free country, as soon as you have to provide DNA, give your fingerprints or carry an ID card the freedom has gone.
Even if it is a good idea and would solve crimes (a very few apparently) then you are not free.
Even if it is a good idea and would solve crimes (a very few apparently) then you are not free.
05 December 2008, 04:26 PM
#80
Obviously people can voice opinions, but when they base those opinions on a complete lack of understanding it's faintly annoying. Now when someone talks b*ll*cks about Imprezas then loads of people will pick them up on it, but the subject of DNA profiles seems to leave most people in a cloud of paranoia and prejudice because they simply don't understand what is involved. Except instead of saying: "Hang on a minute, could someone please explain DNA profiles to me?" this being SN, they sound off anyway.
So here's the best analogy I can come up with at short notice. Anyone remember Blade Runner, and the snake scales with serial numbers? Now, imagine every cell in your body has a twenty digit serial number. The number is the same in every cell. The number is entirely random. Utterly - it carries no information about you an any way. If someone finds a cell they read the number - let's say it's 12345678901234567890. Now that number can only be matched to a person if it's on a database: while you get the number at birth no-one is recording the number at that point (although some senior police officers would love to). And all a match would tell you is who the number belongs to. That's it. Nothing else. No more information. Not even what gender you are - that needs a separate test. Again, there is no useful information in a DNA profile; just a random number which is found in only about one in three billion people.
The samples are not stored: if they are analysed there is none left. If they aren't analysed they are thrown away because storage costs would be silly and the FSS and police forces don't have the money. The government doesn't store them because it never has them: they go direct from police to analysis.
Finding DNA at a crime scene does not ensure a conviction: the must be other evidence. In fact the CPS won't even proceed if there is only DNA evidence.
This has been a public service announcement.
M
So here's the best analogy I can come up with at short notice. Anyone remember Blade Runner, and the snake scales with serial numbers? Now, imagine every cell in your body has a twenty digit serial number. The number is the same in every cell. The number is entirely random. Utterly - it carries no information about you an any way. If someone finds a cell they read the number - let's say it's 12345678901234567890. Now that number can only be matched to a person if it's on a database: while you get the number at birth no-one is recording the number at that point (although some senior police officers would love to). And all a match would tell you is who the number belongs to. That's it. Nothing else. No more information. Not even what gender you are - that needs a separate test. Again, there is no useful information in a DNA profile; just a random number which is found in only about one in three billion people.
The samples are not stored: if they are analysed there is none left. If they aren't analysed they are thrown away because storage costs would be silly and the FSS and police forces don't have the money. The government doesn't store them because it never has them: they go direct from police to analysis.
Finding DNA at a crime scene does not ensure a conviction: the must be other evidence. In fact the CPS won't even proceed if there is only DNA evidence.
This has been a public service announcement.
M
05 December 2008, 04:28 PM
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05 December 2008, 04:31 PM
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05 December 2008, 06:11 PM
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So here's the best analogy I can come up with at short notice. Anyone remember Blade Runner, and the snake scales with serial numbers? Now, imagine every cell in your body has a twenty digit serial number. The number is the same in every cell. The number is entirely random. Utterly - it carries no information about you an any way. If someone finds a cell they read the number - let's say it's 12345678901234567890. Now that number can only be matched to a person if it's on a database: while you get the number at birth no-one is recording the number at that point (although some senior police officers would love to). And all a match would tell you is who the number belongs to. That's it. Nothing else. No more information. Not even what gender you are - that needs a separate test. Again, there is no useful information in a DNA profile; just a random number which is found in only about one in three billion people.
Now what does that remind me of? Let me think......
05 December 2008, 07:05 PM
#84
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And as I mentioned earlier, the closer we come to relying on DNA (and we/they will!!) then the more likely will your dna end up all over the place. And it won't be the real criminals that lose out in that case. It'll be those 'who have nothing to hide, who have nothing to fear .....'.
Dave
05 December 2008, 07:55 PM
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05 December 2008, 11:14 PM
#86
It was never intended to - it was designed to stop the silly nonsense about the government selling off the database to insurance companies to make money etc etc. There are enough serious arguments of the type that you mention to genuinely be debated, without rubbish being dragged into it and clouding the proper issues.
M
05 December 2008, 11:59 PM
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I can understand why it might not always be proof.
But if I was on a jury and some guy's DNA was found on the underwear of some poor kid that had been abused it would be proof enough for me. dl
06 December 2008, 09:39 AM
#89
Establishing someones presence at a crime site does not mean they committed it.
eg you could kill someone in self defence or it could be murder.
DNA seems to be good for solving old crimes, but surely criminals will change their MO if they wish to avoid detection.
The odd thing is (AFAIK) sex crime (which DNA is good for solving) doesn't seem to be decreasing. Is that right?
If that is the case - what is the point of this database?
06 December 2008, 11:50 AM
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OOoooh.
That would have been deemed as trolling a few weeks ago, Pete
From a professional point of view, all I can say is that lots of people get convicted from DNA traces being found - most of them are from people who have previous convictions though.
Mainly burglaries and other more 'serious' crimes too. It's rare for an innocent person that has been arrested and then eliminated to be found from DNA and then linked to a new crime. Most offenders are of the repeat kind.
Difficult one.
That would have been deemed as trolling a few weeks ago, Pete
From a professional point of view, all I can say is that lots of people get convicted from DNA traces being found - most of them are from people who have previous convictions though.
Mainly burglaries and other more 'serious' crimes too. It's rare for an innocent person that has been arrested and then eliminated to be found from DNA and then linked to a new crime. Most offenders are of the repeat kind.
Difficult one.
Les