The Zohan

Well Woolies has some 30k+ employees so why not woolies as well then.

Hi Pete, agree about the associated jobs/uindustores althogu of they do go out of busines then there will still be a demande (albeit reduced for parts to keep the current cars OTR

However;
Tata is a joint owner and has just announced a deal with Ferrari so perhaps some difficult questions should be asked of Jag/LR and Tata - if they have money to throw away on F1!

I would not want ot see LR or Jag go down - i think all these cases need to be examined carefully

Petem95

Of course - this is free market capitalism, not some false economy (at least that's the idea)

Firms like this need to restructure and adapt to the difficult economic circumstances. It's survival of the fittest - not bail them out with tax payers money and let them keep operating in an ineffective manner - they'll just be back for another bailout....

How is the UK supposed to complete on a global scale if we churn out ****e that nobody wants because the inefficient firms know they are 'invicible' because they just get a blank cheque at tax payers expensive...

As soon as you bail out one company, then where do you draw the line?..

yoza

Unless I have completely miss the point, Jaguar Landrover have not applied for any handouts from the government, they have enquired about a loan, which if they get they will have to pay back.

Please correct me if Im wrong, as I am a bit slow on the uptake.

OllyK

Absolutely.

moneys

iTrader: (5)

Right lets get a few things right. Firstly Tata have not asked to be bailed out they have asked the government to be gaurantors on a loan, (the banks who WE all saved are not lending money to anyone) this is the same as all the savings accounts we have that are safe upto 50k.

Tata are commited to investing 800million pound into the industry to look into greener fuels and also new technology. The issue is that at the moment people cannot buy cars because finance is not available. 95% of american cars are bought on finance.

All industries are effected at the moment except food ones. (we all need to eat) people need to start questioning the banks who have been bailed out and are not doing what they promised which is lend money to people to get the wheel turning again, the banks created the majority of this recession so its about time they helped us back out of it.

If a company like JLR shut then its not just 15000 jobs but its more like 60000, the stats say that for every line worker there is usually another 3 in the supply line. For the last 2 years JLR has recorded profits, this is the first time any british car company has done this year on year, all the money has been re-invested or pilfered away by Ford before they sold it.

One of the main reasons the 'big 3' got the initial knock back from the american government was because they turned up at a meeting begging for money in the PRIVATE JETS. FFS people thats not how to do it is it.

TATA has sponsored Ferarri because you cant get better publicity than that in F1, TATA although its a big company is a generally unknown company so sponsorship of one of the biggest F1 teams is a good move if you ask me.

JLR is doing everything it can to cut costs at the moment to keep people in a job, going to the government to ask for what they have asked for is totally acceptable if you ask me. If something isnt done soon to get the banks moving with handing OUR cash out then i will gaurantee you all that things will get a HELL OF A LOT WORSE.

Another big thing in this whole recession crap is that the press are making things 100 times worse, they are constantly publishing half a story on so many companies and therefore putting people at an unease to deal with the companies that are in the papers. People need to get behind one another, if you are not under threat in your job and you dont think you will be then carry on as normal, the worse thing you can do is lock yourself away and keep all the money under your bed, we need to keep the money circulating to keep people in work.

The reason that woolies folded was only accelerated by the recession, they were heading towards closure anyway, they have been badly managed for years, when was the last time you shopped at woolies?

There are a lot of comanies around that are not doing to bad, however they are using the recession talk as an excuse to get rid of people. When these companies re-advertise the jobs they are for a hell of a lot less hourly wage than the jobs were previosly, companies are using it as an excuse to get a hell of a lot richer.

pacenote

Moneys thats spot on mate, good post

phil_wrx

iTrader: (2)

i know the credit crunch is to blame for a lot of this but how much blame will the goverment take for there stupid new road tax charges runing the british car market? that must of had some impact on them?

lozgti

Daft thing is I actually like the XK8

PeteBrant

Oustanding post Moneys. Hopefully will clear up some issues for people.

mrtheedge2u2

PB.... we agree..... there is a god somewhere!!!!

Moneys' post was indeed very good....... the bit about the media is bang-on the, er, money.... I have stopped listening to the media as it is nothing but bad news with them going on about how you will not have a pot to **** in.

Floodboy

The problem I have with this, as a tax payer, is that TATA have looked at the market for guarantors and decided that the rates they will be charged are too high and its cheaper to get the money from US.

PeteBrant

Why does this bother you as a tax payer?

All Tata is asking for is for a "normal" level of credit be extended to them by the banks, and for the government to help with this by underwirting the lonas made by said banks.

The exposure to the tax payer is negliable - If Jaguar folds, then as tax payer, we might lose out.

scoobyman223

iTrader: (7)

Damn right listen up guys i work at landrover gaydon and WE ARE NOT AFTER A BAIL OUT ITS COMPLETE CRAP, why does the press who lets face it where partly responsible for the demise of ROVER who i worked for seem to point the bloody finger at jag/landrover every given chance ie Breaking news 800 million bail out due ,whos name due you see time and time again banded on the news JAG/LANDROVER what about HONDA/BMW/MERCEDES/LDV the list goes on this so called bail out is to prtect all of the uk manufacturing not just LANDROVER please do not belive everything you hear in the press as they are complete tossers and need bringing to task before they become responsible for yet another downfall,lets face it if they keep on with the bad press who's gonna buy a car from a company that in there eyes needs bailing out,people can be very narrow sited and belive what they read/watch,look at the slagging Clarkson used to give Vauxhall/Rover and people listened at didnt buy the cars!!
Come on people look at the bigger picture and think for yourselves this is worldwide not just JAG/LANDROVER.

PeteBrant

Best of luck to you - I genuinely hope that it all gets resolved so that Jag/Landrover carry on as normal.

SD

I wish JLR and all who work there all the best but the problem is that the economy HAS to contract and readjust. The economy over the last few years has largely been fueled by consumer borrowing (often of the back of increasing house prices) and this has now had to stop as you can't keep borrowing forever.

An unfortunate side-effect of this is that industry around the world has to lower production and reduce costs. That's the point of the re-adjustment. Bailing out every company (large or otherwise) that needs to undergo change isn't going to work because at the end of the day people just aren't going to be able to spend again like they did before, so they won't be able to buy all these goods.

It's a shame, of course, but the bubble just got too big and this is the result.

Simon

PS And before people go on to me about redundancy, yes, I've been made redundant from 2 of the 3 job's I've had in the past. It's crap, it's demoralising, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

lozgti

Spot on

PeteBrant

Its not bloody bailing it out!

JLR has a level of credit extended to them right? Due to the credit crunch, that level of credit has ben reduced. And the Banks did not put it back to normal levels when they themselves had been given government help.

So through no fault of thier own, JLR are suffering as a result, all they want is normal levels of credit.

lozgti

I think the point was (and the whole country seems to have forgotten what we have all been up to over the last 10 years) that businesses be it shops/cars/whatever have all grown fat and expanded riding a wave of spending mania.

The days of £299 a month Jags and BMW's outside a council house have gone and the companies are all going to have to take this contraction on the chin.

I'm sorry but they have had the good times and if they didn't provide for bad times or thought they wouldn't come because Gordon said so, then tough.

I'm a bit sick of hearing of suffering banks,companies,shops etc.I know it brings misery but there is a penalty for the way most people have behaved over the last few years.Companies and the public.In fact its as frustrating as listening to people who complain they were lent to much money and thats the banks fault

Edit...even if its not a bailout it should be something solely for that company to sort out

nsld

The credit fuelled froth has gone out of the market and the result is that very quickly people stop buying the non essentials like a new car every year.

Car manufacturers are massive overproducers, in the US the unions drive the business (and will kill it)

Governments guaranteeing credit is nothing new, have you people never heard of the export credit guarantee system? For years, every time a dubious export deal (usually weapons) comes up we the taxpayer underwrite the value of the deal 100% so if mr tinpot dictator doesnt pay BAE for his weapons we do.

Want to build a dodgy damn in Turkey, no probs ECGS to the rescue.

Two things need to be looked at, 1, the govt has for yeats underwritten credit lines for business, at least now its on a commercial basis so the bank preferential shares pay back at 10% which is an exceptional deal. As long as the loan guarantees are commercialised properly there is no reason why the taxpayer shouldnt get involved when mainstream providers cant.

The reason they cant get good rates from the mainstream sources is the fact that credit insurance is now too expensive thanks to random companies like AIG!

and 2.

We make too many cars for the demand in the market and have been overproducing for years, hence the cheap lease deals. There has to be contraction in supply to match the contraction in demand. The reported 30% decrease could and should have been spread more evenly but the manufacturers had there eye off the ball.

As for help for small business owners, we are getting VOA assessed again for business rates at the height of the rental market! ffs when will this govt learn anything about value!

yoza

Just another note, as flooding the market has been mentioned.

JLR dont build a Jaguar X-type or Freelander until it is ordered.

The LRX if we get it , cant come quick enough, there are only so may floors you can paint.

LRX Concept

Nice looking motor in the flesh, even the recycled plastic bottles are comfortable...