Why are FMIC kits so big?
#61
To some owners, the mere fact that it 'looks' as if you have done something to boost power is enough in itself ........ even if there is no power increase at all - the 'look' is all important.
As long as it is treated in the same way as putting pin-stripes along the car then everyones happy
As long as it is treated in the same way as putting pin-stripes along the car then everyones happy
#70
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scoobi-G, or anyone else that thinks their top mount is up to the job, I have ACT guages here for around £50 and you determine the charge temperatures for yourself.
As I have reported on numerous past threads, the ACT on a 2 litre STi 3 Wagon shot past the scale of the guage in use at 69.9 C in a sprint from 0-100 mph. I have done A LOT of work on this. O/E top mounts on ALL Classics are wanting. On M/Y 93-96 on original cars and on 97-00 cars with only a modest power hike.
New Age WRX is already making hot air close to 300 bhp on O/E turbo and clearly wanting at 350 bhp +. UK STi with modest mods and 330 bhp has 38-42C ACT in sprint to 100 mph when OAT is around 8 C. ACT taken from lap top reading ECU.
It does not matter if you don't believe these findings but you will change your opinion if you actually take time to convert an opinion to a factual observation.
As I have reported on numerous past threads, the ACT on a 2 litre STi 3 Wagon shot past the scale of the guage in use at 69.9 C in a sprint from 0-100 mph. I have done A LOT of work on this. O/E top mounts on ALL Classics are wanting. On M/Y 93-96 on original cars and on 97-00 cars with only a modest power hike.
New Age WRX is already making hot air close to 300 bhp on O/E turbo and clearly wanting at 350 bhp +. UK STi with modest mods and 330 bhp has 38-42C ACT in sprint to 100 mph when OAT is around 8 C. ACT taken from lap top reading ECU.
It does not matter if you don't believe these findings but you will change your opinion if you actually take time to convert an opinion to a factual observation.
#71
harvey - thanks for that.
As you have the facts, could you tell me what power increase I could expect on my standard UK MY00 Classic Wagon if I stuck a FMIC on ... and that alone.
As you have the facts, could you tell me what power increase I could expect on my standard UK MY00 Classic Wagon if I stuck a FMIC on ... and that alone.
#72
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The only things changed after this were: Apexi power intake for the K&N panel filter, FMIC fitted, Nur Spec-R for the Magnex system and threw a Z4 ecu in. I also fitted a Walbro fuel pump. Oh and turned my boost controller down.
No mapping, ask any of them, no one has touched my car and I'm not about to have ago myself. No turbo swapped still using the good old TD05 16g. No injectors changed, 380cc injectors still in place. I did buy a Power FC but sold it to Neil at Slowboy Racing last year.
Last time it was on the rollers was coming up 2 years ago, graph below;
Since then I've blown the gearbox up once and fitted a Fuelab FPR that I won at SSO last year for finishing second in class.
Also have just found a scan of the printout from Teg too;
Micky.
#73
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exhaust, filter and now ECU
Also, did I pick up that the car's run on a top mount didn't go to plan?
Therefore the base reading doesn't work for a comparison.
You seem like a reasonably smart chap, and your bird the same so look at it with logic...
What does a front mount give you?
cleaner, colder air (hopefully!)
How can putting cleaner, colder air alone in the engine give you power?
by allowing you to put more fuel in and potentially advance the timing further in the knowledge of consistant clean, cold air.
So, the best you could hope for in your situation is that the ecu advances the ignition of its own accord.
More likely scenario:
You had issue with the first (I use the term very loosely) run, it pulled the timing and was generally poorly.
You change the ECU (same as resetting).
You get a fair bit more air from the change in filter, the maf reads this and chucks in more fuel.
The early ECUs are not known for being great at advancing timing on their own, from my99 they are alot better but the early ones are quick enough to retard or pull timing but not going the other.
Now, I am an advocate of the front mount, I use an APS core and designed and fabbed my own pipework for it, I have used front mounts on my scoobs for about 4 years now and would never go back.
But, to state that fitting a front mount will net you near on 100bhp is at best folly, at worst mis-information that could cause a newbie problems that was blindly following you without the use of thought.
At the very least you need to state that you changed the exhaust, the filter and the ecu as to state that there were no other changes (other than the FMIC) is irresponsible
Also, did I pick up that the car's run on a top mount didn't go to plan?
Therefore the base reading doesn't work for a comparison.
You seem like a reasonably smart chap, and your bird the same so look at it with logic...
What does a front mount give you?
cleaner, colder air (hopefully!)
How can putting cleaner, colder air alone in the engine give you power?
by allowing you to put more fuel in and potentially advance the timing further in the knowledge of consistant clean, cold air.
So, the best you could hope for in your situation is that the ecu advances the ignition of its own accord.
More likely scenario:
You had issue with the first (I use the term very loosely) run, it pulled the timing and was generally poorly.
You change the ECU (same as resetting).
You get a fair bit more air from the change in filter, the maf reads this and chucks in more fuel.
The early ECUs are not known for being great at advancing timing on their own, from my99 they are alot better but the early ones are quick enough to retard or pull timing but not going the other.
Now, I am an advocate of the front mount, I use an APS core and designed and fabbed my own pipework for it, I have used front mounts on my scoobs for about 4 years now and would never go back.
But, to state that fitting a front mount will net you near on 100bhp is at best folly, at worst mis-information that could cause a newbie problems that was blindly following you without the use of thought.
At the very least you need to state that you changed the exhaust, the filter and the ecu as to state that there were no other changes (other than the FMIC) is irresponsible
#74
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As you have the facts, could you tell me what power increase I could expect on my standard UK MY00 Classic Wagon if I stuck a FMIC on ... and that alone.
What turbo are you running? VF28?
What power do you think you have at present?
What air charge temperatures do you achieve at present. This is a key question.
What FMIC do you plan to fit? Core design and boost drop across the core have to be taken into account. Some FMIC kits perform better than others. Some expensive well known names do not perform as well as efficient value for money kits.
If the M/Y 00 UK car is below 280 bhp I would not bother with an FMIC. If you are going further then an FMIC is probably a good move.
... and that alone.
The additional power from a front mount comes, in part, from the lower air charge temperature and to some extent, this happens even without further adjustment or modification. Many of you will have noticed that your car performs better in cold crisp weather than hot summer days.
Another aspect to consider, even ignoring the cooling ability of the installation is the flow efficiency of the system. Some FMICs, despite their added pipe length are less restrictive than some O/E TMICs and I guess the same holds true for some of the monster after market TMICs.
I hope this helps.
#75
Great informed replies Harvey. Lets just hope the people in question are reading this AND taking it in.
Strictly speaking, after any mod the engines well-being should at least be checked.
Strictly speaking, after any mod the engines well-being should at least be checked.
#76
I am running whatever power Subaru calculated for my car to be a reliable rocket ..... about 218?
I was under the impression that a FMIC should only be considered at over 350 BHP (some say 400) .... these are not my figures, but repected tuners in the Scooby World.
#78
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exhaust, filter and now ECU
Sorry I'd omitted that, I'd forgotten that I'd trimmed all the stuff in the "View my Scooby" thing. It was all detailed in there.
Also, did I pick up that the car's run on a top mount didn't go to plan?
Therefore the base reading doesn't work for a comparison.
Boost controller set too high by the place that fitted it. I don't do electronics. Wasn't given a chance to turn it down though. I do agree, not an ideal comparison.. I just go off the results I have though.
You seem like a reasonably smart chap, and your bird the same so look at it with logic...
You're having a laugh aren't you. She's as thick as 2 short planks.
More likely scenario:
You had issue with the first (I use the term very loosely) run, it pulled the timing and was generally poorly.
You change the ECU (same as resetting).
You get a fair bit more air from the change in filter, the maf reads this and chucks in more fuel.
The early ECUs are not known for being great at advancing timing on their own, from my99 they are alot better but the early ones are quick enough to retard or pull timing but not going the other.
at worst mis-information that could cause a newbie problems that was blindly following you without the use of thought.
According to many, my car should have blown up years ago. I tend to not post in technical anymore as it's tiring saying the same, "Don't try this at home..." all the time. I hope you'll see where I'm coming from, could be worded better.
At the very least you need to state that you changed the exhaust, the filter and the ecu as to state that there were no other changes (other than the FMIC) is irresponsible
Sorry I'd omitted that, I'd forgotten that I'd trimmed all the stuff in the "View my Scooby" thing. It was all detailed in there.
Also, did I pick up that the car's run on a top mount didn't go to plan?
Therefore the base reading doesn't work for a comparison.
Boost controller set too high by the place that fitted it. I don't do electronics. Wasn't given a chance to turn it down though. I do agree, not an ideal comparison.. I just go off the results I have though.
You seem like a reasonably smart chap, and your bird the same so look at it with logic...
You're having a laugh aren't you. She's as thick as 2 short planks.
More likely scenario:
You had issue with the first (I use the term very loosely) run, it pulled the timing and was generally poorly.
You change the ECU (same as resetting).
You get a fair bit more air from the change in filter, the maf reads this and chucks in more fuel.
The early ECUs are not known for being great at advancing timing on their own, from my99 they are alot better but the early ones are quick enough to retard or pull timing but not going the other.
at worst mis-information that could cause a newbie problems that was blindly following you without the use of thought.
According to many, my car should have blown up years ago. I tend to not post in technical anymore as it's tiring saying the same, "Don't try this at home..." all the time. I hope you'll see where I'm coming from, could be worded better.
At the very least you need to state that you changed the exhaust, the filter and the ecu as to state that there were no other changes (other than the FMIC) is irresponsible
IF ANYONE DECIDES TO DO WHAT I HAVE, THEN ON YOUR OWN HEAD BE IT.
Just because it's working for me, doesn't mean someone else's car will be ok.
Still, 330bhp @ 1Bar of boost isn't to shabby.
Don't try this at home, kids.
#79
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I suspect it will be Zero
Each model and year has a different threshold.
I was under the impression that a FMIC should only be considered at over 350 BHP (some say 400) .... these are not my figures, but repected tuners in the Scooby World.
What models and years are you talking about and do you have any figures as to ACTs for specific examples.
Thanks for the info Banny.
Mick. 330 bhp from your car at 1 bar is fantastic result.
#80
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Anyone who has a classic running with more than just the exhaust filter and remap mods would be well advised to listen to Harvey. An FMIC isn't about adding extra power per se; it is about engine safety and efficiency first and foremost. It's also not just about putting an FMIC on the car and expecting to perform wonders on it's own - it requires supporting mods and further mapping to work optimally.
If you want to learn more about what an FMIC conversion involves and what it actually yields then you can have a look at my experiences, here:
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...e-go-fmic.html
Ns04
If you want to learn more about what an FMIC conversion involves and what it actually yields then you can have a look at my experiences, here:
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...e-go-fmic.html
Ns04
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Hi harvey,
Can I ask you a serious question and I ask this because you seem to know more than most about this and I want to know the answer - not loaded in any direction. Why if a FMIC works so much better for higher power Scoobs (dependent on MY as you say) have Subaru persisted with the TMIC for even their higher power STIs etc. Surely it would make sense for them to go the FMIC route and exploit the potential gains to be had from the supporting mods.
Finally a question about my car. I have a UK Turbo 2000 classic. I would like to upgrade to around 350bhp over time but as I said earlier for some strange illogical reason I would really like to retain a TMIC - I was thinking of going with the Hyperflow from Aus obviously with the supporting mods (turbo, map etc.)
Being blunt am I wasting my time in your opinion and would I just be better gettng over the whole TMIC thing and going the FMIC route bearing in mind I am not looking for more than aorund 350 bhp.
Thanks in advance.
Can I ask you a serious question and I ask this because you seem to know more than most about this and I want to know the answer - not loaded in any direction. Why if a FMIC works so much better for higher power Scoobs (dependent on MY as you say) have Subaru persisted with the TMIC for even their higher power STIs etc. Surely it would make sense for them to go the FMIC route and exploit the potential gains to be had from the supporting mods.
Finally a question about my car. I have a UK Turbo 2000 classic. I would like to upgrade to around 350bhp over time but as I said earlier for some strange illogical reason I would really like to retain a TMIC - I was thinking of going with the Hyperflow from Aus obviously with the supporting mods (turbo, map etc.)
Being blunt am I wasting my time in your opinion and would I just be better gettng over the whole TMIC thing and going the FMIC route bearing in mind I am not looking for more than aorund 350 bhp.
Thanks in advance.
#83
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Hi harvey,
Can I ask you a serious question and I ask this because you seem to know more than most about this and I want to know the answer - not loaded in any direction. Why if a FMIC works so much better for higher power Scoobs (dependent on MY as you say) have Subaru persisted with the TMIC for even their higher power STIs etc. Surely it would make sense for them to go the FMIC route and exploit the potential gains to be had from the supporting mods.
Thanks in advance.
Can I ask you a serious question and I ask this because you seem to know more than most about this and I want to know the answer - not loaded in any direction. Why if a FMIC works so much better for higher power Scoobs (dependent on MY as you say) have Subaru persisted with the TMIC for even their higher power STIs etc. Surely it would make sense for them to go the FMIC route and exploit the potential gains to be had from the supporting mods.
Thanks in advance.
The Evo has had an FMIC from the ouset you'll note.
For your car, if you really must stay with the TMIC, then you could go for one out of the STI8 (you'll need to do some custom fabrication to get it to fit). That should be adequate for your power levels.
BUT fundamentally, the TMIC is still in the wrong place, i.e. on top of a baking hot engine! Also, the bonnet scoop is of dubious efficiency at sustained higher speeds with the classic, so the bigger TMIC becomes redundant if air isn't reaching it properly. To get around this, you need to fit a bigger bonnet scoop and the associated undertray gubbins when you fit the STi8 TMIC.
By the time you add up the hassle and expense of this, it would have cost the same to take the more effective FMIC route.
Ns04
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 29 January 2009 at 10:24 AM.
#86
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depends what your after, is the extra performance worht the cost.
bearing in mind for an uprated hyperflow top mount your talking £700, you can get a decent front mount inc fitting for £650.
so front mount works out cheaper, if you go for a top class top mount that is
#87
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David at APi said it succinctly when I was contemplating whether to go TMIC or FMIC.
"Just do it properly and get a front mount"
PS would also like to hear from mappers whether you can generally get the same degree of ignition advance with a TMIC as an FMIC, all other things being roughly equal.
I recall Bob saying to me that he was impressed that he could add 5 degree of advance over my previous map with the std TMIC.
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 29 January 2009 at 02:00 PM.