SunnySideUp

To some owners, the mere fact that it 'looks' as if you have done something to boost power is enough in itself ........ even if there is no power increase at all - the 'look' is all important.

As long as it is treated in the same way as putting pin-stripes along the car then everyones happy

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

So in your opinion my car would run fine with the standard tmic, and the fmic is just bling correct?

Banny

SunnySideUp

I was stating that to move the IC from Top to Front, on it's own, will not give any noticeable power increase.

I have no idea what set-up you have.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

<---- view my scooby

SunnySideUp

That will look really good when you've got the white finish on the bonnet, lip and spoiler

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

I am going the opposite way and considering doing the roof black

SunnySideUp

I did think it was shiny for primer .....

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

careful there Pete, you will be accused of having a sense of humour

SunnySideUp

Oooops, don't want that - now do we

harvey

iTrader: (48)

scoobi-G, or anyone else that thinks their top mount is up to the job, I have ACT guages here for around £50 and you determine the charge temperatures for yourself.
As I have reported on numerous past threads, the ACT on a 2 litre STi 3 Wagon shot past the scale of the guage in use at 69.9 C in a sprint from 0-100 mph. I have done A LOT of work on this. O/E top mounts on ALL Classics are wanting. On M/Y 93-96 on original cars and on 97-00 cars with only a modest power hike.
New Age WRX is already making hot air close to 300 bhp on O/E turbo and clearly wanting at 350 bhp +. UK STi with modest mods and 330 bhp has 38-42C ACT in sprint to 100 mph when OAT is around 8 C. ACT taken from lap top reading ECU.
It does not matter if you don't believe these findings but you will change your opinion if you actually take time to convert an opinion to a factual observation.

SunnySideUp

harvey - thanks for that.

As you have the facts, could you tell me what power increase I could expect on my standard UK MY00 Classic Wagon if I stuck a FMIC on ... and that alone.

mickywrx

iTrader: (29)

I don't have the actual print off from Teg to hand, but the RR day where my car made 236bhp was organised by Harvey and covered by Jap Performance, so I do have a scan of the page.



The only things changed after this were: Apexi power intake for the K&N panel filter, FMIC fitted, Nur Spec-R for the Magnex system and threw a Z4 ecu in. I also fitted a Walbro fuel pump. Oh and turned my boost controller down.

No mapping, ask any of them, no one has touched my car and I'm not about to have ago myself. No turbo swapped still using the good old TD05 16g. No injectors changed, 380cc injectors still in place. I did buy a Power FC but sold it to Neil at Slowboy Racing last year.

Last time it was on the rollers was coming up 2 years ago, graph below;


Since then I've blown the gearbox up once and fitted a Fuelab FPR that I won at SSO last year for finishing second in class.

Also have just found a scan of the printout from Teg too;



Micky.

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

exhaust, filter and now ECU

Also, did I pick up that the car's run on a top mount didn't go to plan?
Therefore the base reading doesn't work for a comparison.

You seem like a reasonably smart chap, and your bird the same so look at it with logic...

What does a front mount give you?
cleaner, colder air (hopefully!)

How can putting cleaner, colder air alone in the engine give you power?
by allowing you to put more fuel in and potentially advance the timing further in the knowledge of consistant clean, cold air.

So, the best you could hope for in your situation is that the ecu advances the ignition of its own accord.

More likely scenario:
You had issue with the first (I use the term very loosely) run, it pulled the timing and was generally poorly.
You change the ECU (same as resetting).
You get a fair bit more air from the change in filter, the maf reads this and chucks in more fuel.
The early ECUs are not known for being great at advancing timing on their own, from my99 they are alot better but the early ones are quick enough to retard or pull timing but not going the other.

Now, I am an advocate of the front mount, I use an APS core and designed and fabbed my own pipework for it, I have used front mounts on my scoobs for about 4 years now and would never go back.
But, to state that fitting a front mount will net you near on 100bhp is at best folly, at worst mis-information that could cause a newbie problems that was blindly following you without the use of thought.

At the very least you need to state that you changed the exhaust, the filter and the ecu as to state that there were no other changes (other than the FMIC) is irresponsible

harvey

iTrader: (48)

About 14.369 bhp

What turbo are you running? VF28?
What power do you think you have at present?
What air charge temperatures do you achieve at present. This is a key question.
What FMIC do you plan to fit? Core design and boost drop across the core have to be taken into account. Some FMIC kits perform better than others. Some expensive well known names do not perform as well as efficient value for money kits.

If the M/Y 00 UK car is below 280 bhp I would not bother with an FMIC. If you are going further then an FMIC is probably a good move.

If you fit an FMIC without a remap you are taking what to me is an unacceptable risk. Some people get away with it but, like certain peers of the realm, they are on very thin ice. What is certain is that you are not getting the best out of the modification. ie fitting the FMIC. Why fit one if you are not going to get full benefit? So as far as I am concerned, fitting an FMIC and that alone is not a logical move or question, unless of course you are a Chav, looks are more important than performance and the well being of your engine has no relevance.

The additional power from a front mount comes, in part, from the lower air charge temperature and to some extent, this happens even without further adjustment or modification. Many of you will have noticed that your car performs better in cold crisp weather than hot summer days.
Another aspect to consider, even ignoring the cooling ability of the installation is the flow efficiency of the system. Some FMICs, despite their added pipe length are less restrictive than some O/E TMICs and I guess the same holds true for some of the monster after market TMICs.

I hope this helps.

dan83590

Great informed replies Harvey. Lets just hope the people in question are reading this AND taking it in.

Strictly speaking, after any mod the engines well-being should at least be checked.

SunnySideUp

Yes, I would doubt the 14.369 BHP increase ..... I suspect it will be Zero

I am running whatever power Subaru calculated for my car to be a reliable rocket ..... about 218?

I was under the impression that a FMIC should only be considered at over 350 BHP (some say 400) .... these are not my figures, but repected tuners in the Scooby World.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Changed my front mount core from a autobahn88 to a hybrid and it seems to pull harder, smoother revving and better at the top. So all in all there is some improvement over the autobahn88

Banny

mickywrx

iTrader: (29)

Added some replies in italic, and yes you're right, but I had forgotten I'd put the view my scooby on a diet.

IF ANYONE DECIDES TO DO WHAT I HAVE, THEN ON YOUR OWN HEAD BE IT.

Just because it's working for me, doesn't mean someone else's car will be ok.

Still, 330bhp @ 1Bar of boost isn't to shabby.

Don't try this at home, kids.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Whether it is Zero 5 or some other number is of no relevance on a 218 bhp M/Y 00 WRX. You are wasting your time thinking about an FMIC until you are the other side of 280 bhp ON YOUR MODEL AND YEAR, simply because the O/E TMIC generally has ACTs under control until around that power level. At the point ACTs go out of control, then there are gains to be had in terms of power AND safety of the engine.
Each model and year has a different threshold.

I guess you have not really thought this through or perhaps you have not read and digested what has already been said. Talk of 350 bhp and 400 bhp is just hot air if you do not relate this to the models and years.
What models and years are you talking about and do you have any figures as to ACTs for specific examples.

Thanks for the info Banny.

Mick. 330 bhp from your car at 1 bar is fantastic result.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Anyone who has a classic running with more than just the exhaust filter and remap mods would be well advised to listen to Harvey. An FMIC isn't about adding extra power per se; it is about engine safety and efficiency first and foremost. It's also not just about putting an FMIC on the car and expecting to perform wonders on it's own - it requires supporting mods and further mapping to work optimally.

If you want to learn more about what an FMIC conversion involves and what it actually yields then you can have a look at my experiences, here:

https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...e-go-fmic.html

Ns04

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Hi harvey,

Can I ask you a serious question and I ask this because you seem to know more than most about this and I want to know the answer - not loaded in any direction. Why if a FMIC works so much better for higher power Scoobs (dependent on MY as you say) have Subaru persisted with the TMIC for even their higher power STIs etc. Surely it would make sense for them to go the FMIC route and exploit the potential gains to be had from the supporting mods.

Finally a question about my car. I have a UK Turbo 2000 classic. I would like to upgrade to around 350bhp over time but as I said earlier for some strange illogical reason I would really like to retain a TMIC - I was thinking of going with the Hyperflow from Aus obviously with the supporting mods (turbo, map etc.)

Being blunt am I wasting my time in your opinion and would I just be better gettng over the whole TMIC thing and going the FMIC route bearing in mind I am not looking for more than aorund 350 bhp.

Thanks in advance.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

The reason Subaru have persisted with tmic, is due to cost, neatness and ease of fitment. It has no relation to potential further tuning with supporting mods.

Banny

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

F1. The reason is simple mate. It's cheaper! Subaru don't want you to modify the car and the std TMIC is ok at the std 220. With the new Sti's the std TMIC is much better and can cope with the Std output of the STi and STi PPP, so why opt for the more expensive FMIC set up?

The Evo has had an FMIC from the ouset you'll note.

For your car, if you really must stay with the TMIC, then you could go for one out of the STI8 (you'll need to do some custom fabrication to get it to fit). That should be adequate for your power levels.

BUT fundamentally, the TMIC is still in the wrong place, i.e. on top of a baking hot engine! Also, the bonnet scoop is of dubious efficiency at sustained higher speeds with the classic, so the bigger TMIC becomes redundant if air isn't reaching it properly. To get around this, you need to fit a bigger bonnet scoop and the associated undertray gubbins when you fit the STi8 TMIC.

By the time you add up the hassle and expense of this, it would have cost the same to take the more effective FMIC route.

Ns04

Tidgy

should also be added that to change from the scoob top mount to a front mount would involve a redesign of the entire air inlet path, big big bucks.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Not sure I agree with that as cutting up my car and moving things around engine bay wise to make a FMIC fit seems somewhat comparable in terms of hassle and expense.

Tidgy

depends what your after, is the extra performance worht the cost.

bearing in mind for an uprated hyperflow top mount your talking £700, you can get a decent front mount inc fitting for £650.

so front mount works out cheaper, if you go for a top class top mount that is

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Obviously, the TMIC has the advantage of not having to cut into the inner wing and bumper, but in terms of labour time and costs involved, it's about the same IIRC from Harvey (who has done both).

David at APi said it succinctly when I was contemplating whether to go TMIC or FMIC.

"Just do it properly and get a front mount"

PS would also like to hear from mappers whether you can generally get the same degree of ignition advance with a TMIC as an FMIC, all other things being roughly equal.

I recall Bob saying to me that he was impressed that he could add 5 degree of advance over my previous map with the std TMIC.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

£700 if you buy it in the UK, but if I just happened to be going to Australia in March.... considerably cheaper.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Very interesting.
I am flat out right now and will pass on all the info I can when time permits.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Cheers Harvey, appreciated.