Why are FMIC kits so big?
30 January 2009, 02:31 PM
#91
Just my thoughts:
My car runs a very steady 340/340 on a STi8 TMIC and has done for some years now.
I wouldn't consider going front mount until well into the 400s.
STi8 TMIC is better than most aftermarket TMICs.
Here are the views from one of the most respected tuners around (Andy Forrest Performance):
"The top mount intercooler (TMIC) which sits under the scoop on the top of the engine on all these cars can be susceptible to under-bonnet heat, especially following being stationary after heavy driving. For this reason it is sensible to allow the "heatsoak" to dissipate with good airflow at low boost after fast road driving or if you have had to sit stationary for a while.
The core area exposed to airflow and the volume and mass of the core have increased as the years progressed. The Samco or similar intercooler hoses available for the UK MY97-00 models have superior strength and airflow and are a very worthwhile modification.
The effectiveness of the OE intercoolers varies throughout the years. The early 93-96 slanty type will limit power to around 310 bhp whilst the 99-00 can run to around 330 bhp. The STI MY01 onwards is capable of over 450bhp with an appropriately sized turbo.
Fitting a later type intercooler is a popular upgrade although it is by no means a simple task. Some custom fabrication can be required in most cases. There are a number of after market top mount intercoolers which are true bolt on items which are capable of high 300 bhp.
The front mounted intercooler (FMIC) is an effective upgrade, particulary on the MY93-96 cars as it keeps the intercooler in a cool area reducing heat soak and ensures an adequate cool air flow at all speeds, the downside of fitting a FMIC before it is really necessary is the increased lag after a gearshift and sometimes it induces compressor surge."
AndyForrestPerformance
Litchfield with their Type 25 also choose to stick with the OE TMIC at 415/420. Type25
Much depends on your model and state of tune. On very early models it's easier to fit a FMIC than a STi8 TMIC, but only worth doing if the current limits of the TMIC have been reached. For all the other models, the STi8 TMIC is far easier to fit than a FMIC - no question.
We are Hybrid stockists and sell a fair qty of FMICs, but I still stick with the STi8 TMIC on mine as it works so well.
Hope it helps add something into the thinking pot
Bob
My car runs a very steady 340/340 on a STi8 TMIC and has done for some years now.
I wouldn't consider going front mount until well into the 400s.
STi8 TMIC is better than most aftermarket TMICs.
Here are the views from one of the most respected tuners around (Andy Forrest Performance):
"The top mount intercooler (TMIC) which sits under the scoop on the top of the engine on all these cars can be susceptible to under-bonnet heat, especially following being stationary after heavy driving. For this reason it is sensible to allow the "heatsoak" to dissipate with good airflow at low boost after fast road driving or if you have had to sit stationary for a while.
The core area exposed to airflow and the volume and mass of the core have increased as the years progressed. The Samco or similar intercooler hoses available for the UK MY97-00 models have superior strength and airflow and are a very worthwhile modification.
The effectiveness of the OE intercoolers varies throughout the years. The early 93-96 slanty type will limit power to around 310 bhp whilst the 99-00 can run to around 330 bhp. The STI MY01 onwards is capable of over 450bhp with an appropriately sized turbo.
Fitting a later type intercooler is a popular upgrade although it is by no means a simple task. Some custom fabrication can be required in most cases. There are a number of after market top mount intercoolers which are true bolt on items which are capable of high 300 bhp.
The front mounted intercooler (FMIC) is an effective upgrade, particulary on the MY93-96 cars as it keeps the intercooler in a cool area reducing heat soak and ensures an adequate cool air flow at all speeds, the downside of fitting a FMIC before it is really necessary is the increased lag after a gearshift and sometimes it induces compressor surge."
AndyForrestPerformance
Litchfield with their Type 25 also choose to stick with the OE TMIC at 415/420. Type25
Much depends on your model and state of tune. On very early models it's easier to fit a FMIC than a STi8 TMIC, but only worth doing if the current limits of the TMIC have been reached. For all the other models, the STi8 TMIC is far easier to fit than a FMIC - no question.
We are Hybrid stockists and sell a fair qty of FMICs, but I still stick with the STi8 TMIC on mine as it works so well.
Hope it helps add something into the thinking pot
Bob
Last edited by Aztec Performance Ltd; 30 January 2009 at 02:41 PM.
30 January 2009, 05:44 PM
#92
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Lots of good comments here. But. My question is, why do FMIC's have to be so big? Why is the only design freely available come with the need to chop your inner wings to bits?
Why not have a smaller front mounted cooler and have the pipework routed so they do not have to run through any panels?
I can't beleive the only option for a front mount is to cut various huges holes in our Subarus!!
Why not have a smaller front mounted cooler and have the pipework routed so they do not have to run through any panels?
I can't beleive the only option for a front mount is to cut various huges holes in our Subarus!!
30 January 2009, 08:11 PM
#93
Dan : If you wanted an intercooler to specifically handle your power ouput, performing in the UK only then the core size could probably be half the size it is on the Hybrid GT. The FMIC is designed to operate in any country in the world where local temperature and altitude are a consideration. On top of that the core has to be big enough to handle a range of power outputs up to say 600 or 700 bhp.
Please see post #29, page 1.
F1 :
I cannot speak for Subaru but I suspect that the TMIC package is much neater for Subaru in that it is far easier to fit on a production line. The TMIC provided as OE will also be cheaper than an FMIC and as Tidgy pointed out at post #84, a redesign of the car which is obviously expensive, would be required if Subaru were to change to an FMIC.
Also remember that Subaru have no interest in producing a car so that it is easy for you or I to extract more power. That is not one of their considerations at the design stage.
Look at the development of the WRX from 1993 when it had 215ps or thereabouts. The TMIC on the WRX has been redesigned and upgraded model on model since that time. Had it been adequate continual redesign would not have been necessary. The WRX power has not increased much in that time.
When I first had my MY2000 STi 6 Wagon I had absolutely no intention of fitting an FMIC as I thought that was overkill and I wanted to maintain the OE look. I soon found that by around 320-325 bhp the charge temperatures were already out of control. If you plan to run 350 bhp on your UK MY 2000 then in my opinion you are at risk unless you do something to control ACTs and you certainly won't get the best out of it.
I believe that fitting a Hybrid GT FMIC kit is the most efficient and cost effective solution and I have done a lot of work to come to that conclusion. Some time ago there were a lot of posts advocating the use of STi 8 top mounts which were claimed to be good to 400 bhp. I was interested enough to fit an STi 8 TMIC to my STi 3 Wagon but I concluded that had been a retrograde step over one of my own front mounts. It certainly cost more than a front mount by the time it was installed and the installation itself was more work than fitting a front mount. It is not something I will be repeating. Also without the big scoop the TMIC did not operate satisfactorily.
There had been minor alterations to the car and I decided to get another power run before removing the STi 8 TMIC and fitting a Hybrid GT. 24 December we ran 3 cars on the same Dyno Dynamics Rollers where it had previously produced 371 bhp when the TMIC was fitted. It did 392 bhp with 4C. ambient temperature and air charge temperatures at 38-42C. The car now has a front mount and will run again on the same rollers in the very near future but as the map needed more fuel it is certainly going to produce more power.
I can post the results when available but for the record the run on 24 December was from memory with 4C. ambient and 38-42 C. charge temperatures.
I cannot comment on the Hyperflow TMIC regards performance as I have never assessed one but remember it is not only the charge temperature you are concerned with. Is it a bar and plate and what is the pressure drop across the core?
At around £700 fitted, if that is in fact the price, the Hyperflow sounds like an expensive option when there is an already a proven solution with the Hybrid GT. £325 for the kit and we fit, inclusive of consumables for a fixed £180.
Yes the bumper needs to be cut but for the hundreds of people who have fitted FMICs in the past, I don't think it was a particularly big deal. If you don't want to do it yourself choose a competent installer of which there are many.
Lastly, if you get you car to around 350 bhp and still undecided, I can loan you an ACT guage and you can measure the charge temperatures yourself. Return the guage in good condition and it costs you nothing and if you want to keep the guage (or damage it) the cost is £50. Many people have an opinion about how good intercoolers are or are not but unless they are prepared to monitor ambient and air charge temperatures their comments may not be particularly valid.
Please see post #29, page 1.
F1 :
Why if a FMIC works so much better for higher power Scoobs (dependent on MY as you say) have Subaru persisted with the TMIC for even their higher power STIs etc. Surely it would make sense for them to go the FMIC route and exploit the potential gains to be had from the supporting mods.
Also remember that Subaru have no interest in producing a car so that it is easy for you or I to extract more power. That is not one of their considerations at the design stage.
Look at the development of the WRX from 1993 when it had 215ps or thereabouts. The TMIC on the WRX has been redesigned and upgraded model on model since that time. Had it been adequate continual redesign would not have been necessary. The WRX power has not increased much in that time.
When I first had my MY2000 STi 6 Wagon I had absolutely no intention of fitting an FMIC as I thought that was overkill and I wanted to maintain the OE look. I soon found that by around 320-325 bhp the charge temperatures were already out of control. If you plan to run 350 bhp on your UK MY 2000 then in my opinion you are at risk unless you do something to control ACTs and you certainly won't get the best out of it.
I believe that fitting a Hybrid GT FMIC kit is the most efficient and cost effective solution and I have done a lot of work to come to that conclusion. Some time ago there were a lot of posts advocating the use of STi 8 top mounts which were claimed to be good to 400 bhp. I was interested enough to fit an STi 8 TMIC to my STi 3 Wagon but I concluded that had been a retrograde step over one of my own front mounts. It certainly cost more than a front mount by the time it was installed and the installation itself was more work than fitting a front mount. It is not something I will be repeating. Also without the big scoop the TMIC did not operate satisfactorily.
There had been minor alterations to the car and I decided to get another power run before removing the STi 8 TMIC and fitting a Hybrid GT. 24 December we ran 3 cars on the same Dyno Dynamics Rollers where it had previously produced 371 bhp when the TMIC was fitted. It did 392 bhp with 4C. ambient temperature and air charge temperatures at 38-42C. The car now has a front mount and will run again on the same rollers in the very near future but as the map needed more fuel it is certainly going to produce more power.
I can post the results when available but for the record the run on 24 December was from memory with 4C. ambient and 38-42 C. charge temperatures.
I cannot comment on the Hyperflow TMIC regards performance as I have never assessed one but remember it is not only the charge temperature you are concerned with. Is it a bar and plate and what is the pressure drop across the core?
At around £700 fitted, if that is in fact the price, the Hyperflow sounds like an expensive option when there is an already a proven solution with the Hybrid GT. £325 for the kit and we fit, inclusive of consumables for a fixed £180.
Yes the bumper needs to be cut but for the hundreds of people who have fitted FMICs in the past, I don't think it was a particularly big deal. If you don't want to do it yourself choose a competent installer of which there are many.
Lastly, if you get you car to around 350 bhp and still undecided, I can loan you an ACT guage and you can measure the charge temperatures yourself. Return the guage in good condition and it costs you nothing and if you want to keep the guage (or damage it) the cost is £50. Many people have an opinion about how good intercoolers are or are not but unless they are prepared to monitor ambient and air charge temperatures their comments may not be particularly valid.
30 January 2009, 08:29 PM
#94
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Harvey. Thanks for taking time for such a detailed reply. I am not disputing the fact that a FMIC is much better than a TMIC. I fully understand each of your replies and I have listened.
Over the past couple of years of my membership here I have read plenty of threads where owners want to keep the original Subaru look. So why are there not more people retrofitting FMIC's that do not have the need for a so much cutting and pipework.
Am I being thick here!! What info am I missing?
Over the past couple of years of my membership here I have read plenty of threads where owners want to keep the original Subaru look. So why are there not more people retrofitting FMIC's that do not have the need for a so much cutting and pipework.
Am I being thick here!! What info am I missing?
Last edited by dan83590; 30 January 2009 at 08:33 PM.
30 January 2009, 09:09 PM
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F1 :
I cannot speak for Subaru but I suspect that the TMIC package is much neater for Subaru in that it is far easier to fit on a production line. ....
.......
..... Many people have an opinion about how good intercoolers are or are not but unless they are prepared to monitor ambient and air charge temperatures their comments may not be particularly valid.
I cannot speak for Subaru but I suspect that the TMIC package is much neater for Subaru in that it is far easier to fit on a production line. ....
.......
..... Many people have an opinion about how good intercoolers are or are not but unless they are prepared to monitor ambient and air charge temperatures their comments may not be particularly valid.
Thank you very much for such a detailed reply. I shall certainly give your post some thought.
A couple of points. I didn't so much mean that Subaru should swap to a front mount for all models, but was really wondering about their high end STI's - i.e. are they misisng a trick by not fitting a FMIC to them as standard although as you say it would make the production line somewhat of a logistical nightmare.
Secondly I am not completely adverse to cutting the front bumper etc. I just have an inate feeling that a Scoob should have a TMIC which is to be honest based on nothing more than a feeling. Like the fact that I think all Ferraris should be red LOL!
Even if I can get the power figuires I want with a TMIC it sounds like it may be a lot safer using a front mount.
Food for thought. Thanks again
01 February 2009, 05:37 PM
#96
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Harvey,
Thank you very much for such a detailed reply. I shall certainly give your post some thought.
A couple of points. I didn't so much mean that Subaru should swap to a front mount for all models, but was really wondering about their high end STI's - i.e. are they misisng a trick by not fitting a FMIC to them as standard although as you say it would make the production line somewhat of a logistical nightmare.
Secondly I am not completely adverse to cutting the front bumper etc. I just have an inate feeling that a Scoob should have a TMIC which is to be honest based on nothing more than a feeling. Like the fact that I think all Ferraris should be red LOL!
Even if I can get the power figuires I want with a TMIC it sounds like it may be a lot safer using a front mount.
Food for thought. Thanks again
Thank you very much for such a detailed reply. I shall certainly give your post some thought.
A couple of points. I didn't so much mean that Subaru should swap to a front mount for all models, but was really wondering about their high end STI's - i.e. are they misisng a trick by not fitting a FMIC to them as standard although as you say it would make the production line somewhat of a logistical nightmare.
Secondly I am not completely adverse to cutting the front bumper etc. I just have an inate feeling that a Scoob should have a TMIC which is to be honest based on nothing more than a feeling. Like the fact that I think all Ferraris should be red LOL!
Even if I can get the power figuires I want with a TMIC it sounds like it may be a lot safer using a front mount.
Food for thought. Thanks again
a front mount will 99% of the time drop inlet temps no doubt about it, lag isn't an issue either when mapped up correctly
01 February 2009, 05:54 PM
#97
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If you didn't want to have a large front mount you could allways relocate the top mont somehow. I'm sure Celica owners do this as it also has a top mount. Has it been done?
01 February 2009, 08:43 PM
#98
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Over the past couple of years of my membership here I have read plenty of threads where owners want to keep the original Subaru look. So why are there not more people retrofitting FMIC's that do not have the need for a so much cutting and pipework.
Am I being thick here!! What info am I missing?
Am I being thick here!! What info am I missing?
It costs a lot, but no cutting required I do believe.
Lateral Performance
Or send him a PM ScoobyNet - View Profile: Lateral Performance
01 February 2009, 08:47 PM
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I told you in post number 2. Speak to Mark at Lateral Performance.
It costs a lot, but no cutting required I do believe.
Lateral Performance
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It costs a lot, but no cutting required I do believe.
Lateral Performance
Or send him a PM ScoobyNet - View Profile: Lateral Performance
Why isn't there something more available?
02 February 2009, 09:26 AM
#100
Why isn't there something more available?
So why are there not more people retrofitting FMIC's that do not have the need for a so much cutting and pipework.
Because there is not the demand or what is available is either expensive and requires other major modifications or is expensive and under performing. Most people are happy with what is already available.
About eight years ago Forge produced a combined radiator/FMIC kit which could be installed with no bumper cutting. I drove two cars with this set up but neither had good ACTs and water temperatures on track (Croft) were a cause for concern. Forge may still have these kits today but they never took off, probably because the performance was not worth the expense. My interest at the time was to find a kit that would equal the Hybrid performance, instal without bumper cutting and compete on price.
Cutting the bumper is no big deal but if you want it done professionally we fit the Hybrid kits for £180 inclusive of sundries. If you want, we can fit some capping to the cut edge for a small additional charge and it looks quite original. Very neat and tidy. Other installers will probably do the same but the capping may be overkill on a neat installation anyway.
My STi UK at 328-348 bhp depending on what dyno figures you choose to believe is on the O/E TMIC, injectors and turbo. I have no plans to fit a front mount but if the turbo is change to increase power further it will certainly benefit from an FMIC.
I have found that STi 3,4,5 and 6 are already struggling before 320 bhp.
Early cars with slanted TMICs are struggling by 280 bhp area.
Because the deficiencies of the TMIC are well understood, successful quarter mile cars often avoid top speed running even when reaching top speed only takes 30 seconds or there abouts. The TMIC can cope with a short high power burst but not sustained power runs like top speed runs. TMICs also have issues of heat soak in static or slow moving traffic and how many Time Attack Subarus ran TMICs? Does anyone know?
The information above has been gained from years of experience and as ACT guages are relatively cheap, it is easy for anybody to satisfy themselves as to their ACTs.
Last edited by harvey; 02 February 2009 at 11:30 AM.
06 February 2009, 03:25 PM
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Just read through this thread which is full of helpful information.
Was starting to get worried to what the hell I have done to my car as I thought fitting a FMIC to my 93 WRX was a worthwhile investment in my particularly slow
project.
I understand that between FMIC and TMIC, the placement of the core is vital as is also the core design itself just as important. Yes, there was a lot of trimming and fettling to get it to fit as an intercooler of such a size that was not intented to fit to the front of such a vehicle and yes it does cost a reasonable amount of money and time to fit. I think that it is a worthwhile modification to increase both power and looks of my car after all, I like the cars lines and only want to enhance it.
I personally did have a noticeable gain in power and not too much lag and found the car more responsive from just fitting it alone, although I could not drive full throttle because of fuel cut. (Yes, still noticeable not on full throttle)
Good topic
Was starting to get worried to what the hell I have done to my car as I thought fitting a FMIC to my 93 WRX was a worthwhile investment in my particularly slow
project. I understand that between FMIC and TMIC, the placement of the core is vital as is also the core design itself just as important. Yes, there was a lot of trimming and fettling to get it to fit as an intercooler of such a size that was not intented to fit to the front of such a vehicle and yes it does cost a reasonable amount of money and time to fit. I think that it is a worthwhile modification to increase both power and looks of my car after all, I like the cars lines and only want to enhance it.
I personally did have a noticeable gain in power and not too much lag and found the car more responsive from just fitting it alone, although I could not drive full throttle because of fuel cut. (Yes, still noticeable not on full throttle)
Good topic
06 February 2009, 11:55 PM
#116
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07 February 2009, 10:21 AM
#117
FFS Ian. I have already answered this in your email. The purpose of obtaining the Autobahn was to try it out and see what it was like. If it was better than the Hybrid that is what I would be selling now. Please read the email I sent to you.
As the Hybrid core is capable of handling 600 or 700 bhp and the car in question is below 400 bhp there is no question of its ability to maintain optimum ACTs even with the number plate located as it is. If the core performance were marginal the number plate could be relocated but the advantage to that owner is there is no excuse for a police stop.
As the Hybrid core is capable of handling 600 or 700 bhp and the car in question is below 400 bhp there is no question of its ability to maintain optimum ACTs even with the number plate located as it is. If the core performance were marginal the number plate could be relocated but the advantage to that owner is there is no excuse for a police stop.
07 February 2009, 10:29 AM
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As the Hybrid core is capable of handling 600 or 700 bhp and the car in question is below 400 bhp there is no question of its ability to maintain optimum ACTs even with the number plate located as it is. If the core performance were marginal the number plate could be relocated but the advantage to that owner is there is no excuse for a police stop.
It's less hassle to retain it where it is, come MOT time etc...Although if you go with a standard font and only three quarters size, the police shouldn't pay you any attention!
07 February 2009, 10:40 AM
#119
FFS Ian. I have already answered this in your email. The purpose of obtaining the Autobahn was to try it out and see what it was like. If it was better than the Hybrid that is what I would be selling now. Please read the email I sent to you.
As the Hybrid core is capable of handling 600 or 700 bhp and the car in question is below 400 bhp there is no question of its ability to maintain optimum ACTs even with the number plate located as it is. If the core performance were marginal the number plate could be relocated but the advantage to that owner is there is no excuse for a police stop.
As the Hybrid core is capable of handling 600 or 700 bhp and the car in question is below 400 bhp there is no question of its ability to maintain optimum ACTs even with the number plate located as it is. If the core performance were marginal the number plate could be relocated but the advantage to that owner is there is no excuse for a police stop.
ok, but no need tor the ffs
07 February 2009, 03:12 PM
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Running with a numberplate in front of the IC is the same as blocking half of the TM Scoop ....... renders the whole thing pretty much a pointless excersise IMO.
The idea of a FMIC is to somehow cool the charge air more than would happen with a TMIC - personally, I doubt it makes much difference to 99.9% of the applications it is applied to .......... blocking the air with a numberplate (and therefore defeating the whole reason) is complete madness.
But, and this is important to some, if it makes you feel and look like a proper racing/rally driver it 'could' be worth the money? And that's OK by me
The idea of a FMIC is to somehow cool the charge air more than would happen with a TMIC - personally, I doubt it makes much difference to 99.9% of the applications it is applied to .......... blocking the air with a numberplate (and therefore defeating the whole reason) is complete madness.
But, and this is important to some, if it makes you feel and look like a proper racing/rally driver it 'could' be worth the money? And that's OK by me