Mitchy260

You believe a car with 343bhp and 260lbft of torque is enough to blow 99% of road cars away? The new breed of hot hatches are mapping to 330/340 and the same in torque.

Times have moved on, performance has moved on. The CSL version is a tad little faster than the standard version, but not by much.

I'm not saying these are not good cars, my points were mainly due to the now outdated looks and the fact that they are not at all that fast (In straight line sense)

The majority of people never see a track, they do see lots of straight motorway and DC though

I believe JB recently posted on the subject of M3 performance and his reviews were not too good.

skoobidude

Some good comments and reasoning on here. Thanks all for the response so far.
Not too bothered on the track thing as I'll probably never take either car to a track.
I'd be quite keen to learn of servicing costs for both.
Note, a few peeps getting mixed up with standard M3 figures compared to that of the CSL.

Keep 'em coming.

Nick

Hoppy

Mitchy, you're having a laugh mate. There's more to making a quick car than mere bhp. And having the power running through the front wheels is not a good start! If you've ever tried to keep up with a sub-200bhp Caterham you'll understand.

M3 is quick when you wind it up, CSL is mega fast on track. No FWD hatch on the planet will see which way it went.

Andy, a big part of the CSL's trick is in the rubber. They're Michelin Pilot Sport Cups if memory servces. And yes, getting on for £400 a cornner. Plus they only last five minutes since they're very soft and only come with 5mm tread new If that wasn't painful enough, don't even try to drive the car when it's cold and wet - tyres are useless!

Nick, if you never track a CSL you'll never find out how quick it is and could get caught out by a well-punted Scoob around those fabled twisties On the other hand, just owning a thoroughbred might do it for you You'll pay for the pleasure though.

SPEN555

If your not considering going on track then I don't think you should be considering the CSL. Therefore that leaves the RS4, decision resolved

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Add to the debate

YouTube - GTboard.com: BMW M3 CSL vs Audi RS4 V8 2nd race

Banny

Jacey Boy

RS4 is hurendously expensive to run, tyres are mega and fuel economy is even worse

Mitchy260

You are talking about track based performance here, 99% of the population of drivers will never go near a race track.

I was talking purely about straight line speed of which both the M3 and it's CSL version are not blisteringly quick. A new age hothatch (With remap) will easily keep up, if not pass on the motorways/DC's. (The VAG bunch, the S3, Cupra and GTI230 for example are producing some silly figures 330bhp/340lbft)

There is more to bhp, yes you are correct. Torque and weight also prove a vital statistic into what makes a car quick.

Wasn't having a laugh mate, i was just talking about straight line Straight line is boring to some, but seriously i cannot remember the last time i drove on a winding country road. All 100% of my driving is done on the DC/motorway and around towns, so to me personally, im after a car that has straight line grunt

Hoppy

You keep moving the goal posts Mitchy. But it still makes no odds

I have only ever said that a CSL will really shine on a track, and that if you don't ever go there, then the RS4 is the better bet.

Now having said that, have you checked the video link above? It shows a CSL walking away from an RS4 in a straight line Which surprised me, but if it was against a FWD hatch, it would be gone 100 yards before the hatchback had even stopped spinning its wheels.

And no hatchback is giving 330bhp with just a remap. They are playing with different turbos, which is cheating. But if cheating is allowed, let's stick a turbo on an M3. How much power would you like - 500bhp is easy.

Only joking with you mate

RS Grant

The MKV Golf Edition30 GTi and current shape S3 Audi (almost sure its the same engine/turbo) are re-mapping to c330bhp mate. I came up against an AMD Demo Edition30 at Knockhill and it was really impressive!!

IIRC, it was running a cat-back Milltek, panel filter and a remap at the time and was only JUST slower than my Impreza (355bhp and 390lbft) in a straight line, and around the bends was actually a bit quicker I reckon. Think the guy ha stuck up a few Knockhill in-car videos on youtube actually, I'll have a root around.

Turbo'ing an M3 is pretty expensive from what I've read on here and Passionford... would be better going for an E90 335i if you want a blown petrol Bimma IMO.


Cheers,
Grant

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Rolling start takes away the 4WD advantage

CSL has 373bhp doesn't it & RWD so it should spank the RS4 anyways

As for hot hatches, c'mon

TX.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

The big expense is the depreciation though isn't it ie £60k down to £25-30k today? Buy one for £25k today & it shouldn't be too bad Economy is on a par with a Scoob.

TX.

F1 CJE UK

iTrader: (8)

yep csl one of the best cars ever made....

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

The CSL has 360bhp and is about 1385kg in weight, compared to 414bhp and 1620kg for the RS4. So I would expect the CSL to be faster in a straight line.

Banny

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

i didn't realise we were saying which would be best in the wet .i wouldn't feel confident in any car going fast on a wet rd i don't drive my scoob fast on a wet rd, why risk it go round one corner fast and there is standing water/ big puddle and your likely to go off the rd in most cars.

pippyrips

Bo**cks

My RS4 Is no more expensive on petrol than my old JDM STI and i've just sourced 275,30,19's for 118 each

terryb

At the end of the day the OP needs to test drive both cars. My CSL gives me the biggest grin of any car when I press the Sport button and floor the throttle

hodgy0_2

CSL -- Cardboard boot --- does that mean you can't put your wet swimming gear in it!!!!

Hoppy

Okay, I'm interested now. Logic to me says a remapped 2l Golf will not make more than an extra 50bhp on the OEM turbo, which means a max of 275bhp out of an Edition30 without changing the turbo.

You're claiming double this

RS Grant

2.0 TFSi EDT 30 Software upgrade, power increase from 230bhp to 305bhp £530
2.0 TFSi EDT 30 Software upgrade, power increase from 305bhp to 320bhp* £90*

* additional 'RACE' program for car when bought with 305bhp software upgrade.


I took that information off STAR Performance: VW Tuning although I think they use Revo software rather than AMD stuff.


Cheers,
Grant

^Qwerty^

Is that hurendously expensive compared to other cars of similiar performance or just in general for a ~400bhp car?

I only ask, because I don't think the tyres, brakes and service costs are any more or less than other cars of similiar performance and I'm getting 25mpg on my commute in to work, and can return 30 on a run.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

Hi Pippyrips, that's surprising to hear as I thought that the RS4 is thirsty on petrol.
What's the fuel consumption like in town and what are the service schedules and costs of servicing?
They have (as all cars) dropped quite a lot now but it's the running costs that put me off...
Cheers

Mitchy260

I was sceptical too, but the truth is out there on all the VAG based forums, the old 210/225bhp units used to remap upto around 270bhp, and there were always stories of LCR's @ 270bhp stuck to the ar*e end of 343bhp M3's, you would think a 70hp advantage would ring true but with the mountains of torque the cars were producing, the LCR's kept up quite convincingly.

Now the new breed of 2.0t cars are out and from the looks of it, (well they have been for 2yrs now so not exactly new) they are proving to be little pocket rockets

The Cupra has a standard quoted figure of 240hp, but there are hundreds of cars that have been tried and tested pushing out around a further 20hp upto 260hp as standard when run. Coincidentally very similar to the S3 figures which of course has the same engine, turbo etc (Marketing ploy, who knows, but there is stacks of evidence out there to support)
Exactly the same for the GTI ed 230, cars are producing quite a bit more than that upto 250-255 as standard.

Now of course, it is ludicrous to compare these cars with that of the M3 CSL, keep them both standard and the CSL wins hands down in all aspects, but many of the hothatch brigade are opting for simple remaps that boost power and torque considerably, there are a few 340/350hp cupras running around on standard turbos, just the usual simple mods, remap, filter, exhaust, nothing more.

I think my point was just to say that the new hothatches (New Focus RS aswell) are a match for straight line performance.

I agree it's pointless and unfair comparing standard and modded, but i did say remap in my post. These HH's do exist though, times have moved on, what used to be 200/250hp FWD cars are now 300/350hp

There is a revo mapped Ed230 (Standard turbo), pushing 13.2 @ 111mph, no matter what way you look at those figures, that is quick for a hatchback, he is not the quickest either, there is another chap in the 12's at 118mph terminals, although unsure of his mods list

Santa Pod Forum Shootout.. Mk2's needed! - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

Remember these cars are FWD aswell, so cannot be launched in the same manner as RWD/4wd

Like i said, times are moving on

jespin

He's a mate of mine, I was with him at Pod at the weekend when he ran his 13.2 time. He also was running timing gear in the car and ran a 5.2 0-60 time and an 11.1 0-100 time. When you bear in mind the traction problems, whilst rolling it's an animal. Not yet had any problem with a few E46 M3s, had the legs on an RS4 until well into 3 figures too. You can add 997 C2S and Z4M to that list aswell.

Matteeboy

That's until I bring my wife's 85bhp Jimny to the circuit...

terryb

275/30/19s for £118??

Either they were a mega bargain or you've put el cheapo tyres on a performance car!!!! Hopefully the former, for the sake of all other road users out there

Mark1983

iTrader: (2)

No, it isn't.

The boot mat is made out of recycled cardboard material and 2kg lighter than the standard M3.

@ people believing the crap that comes out of Clarkson's mouth.

I've been round the Ring in a CSL and it great on track with a noise that sends shivers down your back.

RS4 if you want a fast everyday car. CSL if you want a track biased car with that certain X factor.

Jacey Boy

Come on!, RS4 does around 15mpg, servicing is expensive, road tax is also £400 p/y

Hoppy

They could be Vredestein Ultrac Sessanata which are highly rated in magazine reviews. See this Tyres thread:

https://www.scoobynet.com/other-marq...0-tyres-2.html

I found Sessantas in Scoob-friendly 225/40x18 at Camskill Cheap Tyres Discount Tyres & Japanese Import Car Parts Spares Tuning Performance :: for an amazing £91

Hoppy

Thanks for your post Mitchy.

I was just dubious when you said a Golf GTi Edition30, which gives about 220-ish as stock, could deliver 330bhp without a change of turbo.

I don't doubt these cars can make big power no problem, but to do that without fitting a bigger turbo suggests that the original OEM turbo had masses of head-room. If that was the case, then standard car would be laggy and have a poor bottom end, which it clearly doesn't.

Where then does the stock small turbo get extra the lungs to blow 330bhp? Beats me

rickya

iTrader: (18)

All this hot hatch taking on M3 CSL's etc, if you pardon my french, is absoloute tosh. No offence to original poster, its just my opinion! Its not just all about bhp figures. As others have said you have to take into consideration FWD or RWD; rev range; peak power at what revs; in gear acceleration; engine capacity; how efficent an engine is i.e. the M3 breaks the 100bhp per litre in a NA car easily; suspension setup; handling; gearbox type & speed; weight distribution; steering feel & feedback.

A car like an E46 M3 & CSL have been designed with all these various attributes in mind & cannot seriously be compared to french/spanish & even german cheap hot hatches IMO.