I'm not going to get involved in this too much, but I think it's wrong to post pictures of such an incident on a public board without good reason and without the owners knowledge or consent. Yes, human's like to see macabre things but when everyone was pointing and snapping away, the driver was in the back of an ambulance, actual condition uknown. If he was so 'unhurt' why did it take so long to get him out?
Perhaps I feel a bit stronger about this sort of thing than most people, as I've experienced it myself when I went off at Donno. At the time, anyone taking pictures I just wanted to knock out!!!

Regarding the standard of driving, I only experienced one particularly bad bit of track etiquette yesterday (DBM Scoob not moving over, same car John?), I heard lots of other complaints, most of which I tried to deal with the best I could. We clearly need to be more thorough with people in the briefing, and come down harder on those that clearly flout the rules of etiquette. On a positive note, Oulton are the only circuit I've ever driven on that use the blue flags on a regular basis, which helped me out enormously. Perhaps other circuits should follow suit.
Overall, a great day marred by too many incidents. Still, live and learn.....

Stef.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stef:
, the driver was in the back of an ambulance, actual condition uknown. If he was so 'unhurt' why did it take so long to get him out? QUOTE]

Word had already got back to the pits, from the marshalls that the guys were OK before the car was wheeled back.

As for why it took so long, I expect the car being upside down has something to do with it..

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by johnfelstead:
<B>It is very easy for me to pass guys like this, it takes barely a second for me to be clear, if i were in a normal car then that would be a different story.[/quote]

So.. are you saying it'd be OK for normal Scoobs to "undertake" MX-5's for example, given their peformance advantage? (in the same situation) ?

What would happen if the MX-5 driver complained to the marshalls.. ?

 

I've been blue flagged before I was young, it was my first time, the single seater had no mirrors excuses excuses very embarrasing

That does rely on their being quite a number of marshalls round the track though no ? donno seemed to have lights instead (or was that me not paying attention again) didn't notice any flag waving going on. (Yes I know, perfect example of bad track etiquette)

 

David.
Word also got back to you that there were four people in the car.....

John.
David is right. Just because you consider your car able to safely undertake very quickly doesn't make it right. I know how frustrating it is to be held up, but you old timers need to set an example.

Stef.

 

I was out with John on the first 'session' after the circuit opened when we got held up by a Scooby that kept left instead of right.

It was a Blue, X-Reg 4 door IIRC. I think the number plate had Subaru Haslemere (or something similar) written on the bottom of it.

The driver got even more confused when a marshall tried to wave him over to the right.

Chris.

 

Stef, we live in the real world mate, people will always take photos and they will always apear on public BBS's. It doesnt matter what you or anyone else thinks, thats the reality of the situation.

The car i had a problem with was blue, dont think it was DBM though, more a 22B type blue although once passed i just forgot about all the details, next time (if there is one) i will make certain i remember so this guy can recieve some education.

It may help in future at the briefings to hand out an A4 sheet with a diagram on it showing the basic track rules, a picture is much better than a verbal instruction i find.

Maybe this guy was on the **** the night before and half asleep in the briefing, who knows??

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stef:
Word also got back to you that there were four people in the car.....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.. people on the pit wall mused that there were 4 people in the car.. OK, that was heresay, and was reported as such. But I heard from a Marshall directly that "they are all OK" (which didn't correct me on the number of people, but it did let me know from a reliable source that they were OK).

 

OH please, this was a specific one off, i am not saying it is the right thing to do at all, but if you were in my car at the time and saw the total cockup this guy was making and how long i sat there, like half a lap, you would get what i am saying.

Those of you who have seen me on track know how safety concious i am, i was stating facts for this one off incident, dont make this out to be "this is an OK thing to do cos i am fast" type thing.

[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 28 January 2001).]

 

No being there yesterday (you wouldnt all want to have been embarassed by my S4).

I think it does serve a purpose to see the photos. It does make you think and hopefully be more carefull the next time you go on track. I always remember the photos of Ian Cooks car at Castle Coombe. Sobering to see.

I hope it doesnt put off Listers coming again. Its always nice to see a UK main dealer coming along. Ive been passed a number of times by Tim doing demo rides.

Jonathan

 

John.
High horse? I was just agreeing with someone else's comment, but now that I am the organiser of some of these events I have to set a good example, as do the more experienced attendees such as yourself. I spent over a lap behind a DBM Scoob before the marshalls finally got his attention with the blue flags. Oh, and are you sure it was just the once?
Regarding the posting of pictures, yes we are all entitled to our opinions. That was mine.

Stef.

 

damn, beat me too it stef Sorry about that.

Yes, i am sure it was the once. Like once in god knows how many years i have been driving on track. Wish i wasnt so friggin honest at times and just told you guys what you want to hear rather than the truth, as you just love twisting peoples words.

 

Have to agree with Chins

1) Hope it doesn't put off Tim & Listers coming along to an SIDC event again.

2) Hope that a big off works as an incentive/education to others to modify their track behaviour.

I would like to hope that the SIDC good driving reputation continues. I would hate it for BHLG & others to base future decisions as to availability & co-operation on yesterday.

 

My final thoughts.

I was on the far end of the pit wall during the incident with salsa-king, craigamungos and audiodave and was looking through my telephoto lens at the accident, no photo's were taken as I'm not a sick person just concerned. When the ambulance approached at slow speed our fears grew but a pit lane Marshall told us the occupants were OK. I confirmed this by asking RobMac.

When the MY01 was towed off we were pleased that the passenger compartment had stood up so well with the roll and there would not have been any crush or trapment injuries. I took photo's of the wreck for my own use and to show how well the MY01 protected those inside.

As regards posting the pictures I agree that the owners permission should be sought first.

We must be in the minority but we liked the way the MY01 looked B4 the crash with its modifications. Perhaps an inch lower with WRC headlamps and it would be spot on.

Lee

 

Well I tell you what............I`ll swap that facced car for my piece of **** right now and thats no joke.

 

I think this topic has got abit out of hand,
rightly or wrongly pictures were taken but only after we were told that everyone was ok,
I think john has enough track experiance to make the decision that he did and at the end of the day it's been done.
So we are all mates here so lets act like it rather than slag everyone off.
Once again thanks to Stef and dingy for the experiance in the cars or should i say rockets.

 

Yes, my car made it to the BBS and also onto Scoobytrax, but it was either me posting them or, in the case of the video, i was asked if i would have a problem with them being there, I said no i didnt have a problem because it may help someone else NOT to make the same mistake. At least i was asked ! The fact it was "not owned" by anybody shouldnt even come into it !

Im only glad the driver (who i know) and his passenger are still able to walk around and talk about this. Im sure they can or will be able to laugh about it at some point.

 

Arron.
The P1 situation isn't getting any better then?

Ian.
Agree completely.

Stef.

 

WHAT THE FACK talk about abuseive nature!

 

To put a balance on things, I think that most of the structured comments above offer something constructive. Jonfelstead is quite right in what he says about motorsport and the curiosity of humans. I know this because I have a similar background to jonfelstead in motorsport and have also spent sixteen years investigating serious and fatal road accidents. What does worry me is that these days are not classed as a RACMSA approved events and as such drivers could face criminal prosecution if they get carried away or have a big off and someone is killed as a result. Civil courts also identify a persons 'Common Law Duty of Care' towards third parties and a fun day could cost you your entire fortune! When inexperienced drivers get up towards competetive speeds and start driving on the limit, truth is that no matter how much you fancy yourself as a driver, without considerable experiencial learning behind you, when things go wrong, they go very wrong, very quickly and the consequences can be horrendous. I am not canvassing business for my company or anyone elses for that matter but both drivers and organisers of trackdays must start to revise their thinking in relation to what is acceptable and how far such drivers are allowed to go. Trust me, if this posting upsets you, wait until someone is killed and reflect on what I have written today. I speak with authority on this subject and would ask that you consider how the above would affect you. If you want to go full on in a competetive environment, buy a race or rally car but done roll a f***ing road car at 100mph. Killjoy no, concerned, yes.
Finally, I am glad to see that all escaped uninjured, after all it may be a bent scooby but its still a piece of tin! Humans are far more precious that that...

Fact. At 100mph a car covers approx 143 feet per second. The average road is 21 feet wide and it takes approximately 1/7th of a second to run out of road before you hit the scenary (and thats if you have the full width available to you before you start to crash). If it takes an alert driver about 2/3rds of a second to react to a situation, you are already roughly 70 feet off the road and often very poorly indeed before you realise that you are having an accident. Whats more, if you barrel roll at that speed, you will pull about 8G and would die even if you hit nothing and landed in cotton wool.

REMEMBER

'HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS NEED HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVERS' - PLEASE DONT LET IT HAPPEN TO ANYONE ON THIS BB. GET YOURSELF SOME STRUCTURED PROFESSIONAL TRAINING FOR THE PRICE OF TWO TYRES OR SIMPLY SPECTATE, IT MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFESTYLE AND YOUR LIFE.

REGARDS TO YOU ALL

MIKE@PD

 

please dont take what i am saying as having a go at everyone for having an excursion.

There is always the risk of going off track, you may have a mechanical failure or just make a mistake, these things do happen especially as a novice.

What i am tired of reading though, is this culture that seems to be growing that unless you look like your car is right on the edge and occasionally having excursions, you arent driving quickly or pushing the car to the limits.

A good track day driver always has some margin in hand, so if you make a bad judgment or have a minor failure you can deal with that.

We are not out there racing, its a fun activity. As Mike has quite rightly pointed out, we are in road cars, not fully caged up racing cars, we cant afford to have that big off.

If you want to go race and drive to the absolute limits, buy a race car and go racing. You will soon discover how little you know.

If you were to see me in a rally you wouldnt recognise my driving style at all, because i would be right on the edge all the time as thats what rallying is all about, being quicker than the other guy. But on a track day i am never above 90% of the cars ability.

I have only ever had 2 off track excursions in 7 years of track days. One was at cadwell park due to a mechanical failure that dumped water onto my tyres. The other was at anglesy when i made a mistake trying to see how much of an angle in a slide i could get with some new spec tyres.

Please dont get into the mental attitude that track day driving is about being the fastest or most spectacular guy out there, because the cars are not strong enough to protect you if you have a big off.

 

Trying to get back to the thread.... (Lets not get too judgemental of curiosity, Actually I'm interested in the picture because I could have gone the same way!)

I came around that corner after adjusting my tyre pressure slightly fron Front 35 Rear 40, to Front 38 Rear 35. (More inclined to understeer me thinks?)

The car understeered without really feeling like it even came close to breaking traction (I guess because of the dip...) I ran just onto the raised concrete strip. It then caught back again and the back stepped out quite suddenly - I caught it, and got away quite nicely... luckily.

Its the mother of all corners. I've never had the M5 behave like that apart from when I drove around a roundabout with a diesel spill on it.

I've got much more respect for that corner now! Glad to hear nobody hurt. I wonder if the driver could recount the incident for the insight it could give any of us?

Before anybody thinks to flame me, I'm probably going to be driving that very corner again soon...like many of us, near if not on the cars limit.

Paul Fisher.
///M5
bit broken. needs to be fixed for next time :-)

 

Forgive me, but I find this thread interesting and helpful: it shows where the car had its off, and there's been explanation as to what happened.

I don't think that anyone on has been particularly morbid or wrong, even the photographer. If someone had been injured, I'd hope that the picture(s) wouldn't have been posted, but they'd have been taken for sure.

Remember that it's exceptionally easy to flame someone electronically - try to ask yourself if you'd make the same outburst in a pub, face to face, with everyone watching. I find that it tempers my emotion if appropriate, and acts as a good sanity check.

I'm considering a track day, and have been for some time, but really don't want to be involved at all in an incident like this.

Would Donnington be a good bet to use as a starting point?

Would people recommend turning up to a couple as a passenger before taking my car out?

 

Donnington is a lovely track and has a special place for me ( aahhhh) my second track

Haven't driven Oulton but been there and some parts of it are non forgivinging, just like Brands.

Donnington "attacked" in the correct frame of mind is an excellent for the track virgin. As it is not too big not to be able to learn (to a degree) in a day

Richard

 

"Oh, bad luck chap. Hope you're ok. Move to one side while I take some snaps please ..."

Chiark
I did my first track day at Donnington and came off at Craner Curves [who hasn't] backwards at 90 into the gravel trap and damaging another cars headlights with some debris.
The session was stopped and my car was towed back, fortunately no damage.
Loads of vultures gathered round taking pictures there too.
So do a track day, they are great. Just make sure you get your hair done so you look your best for the David Bailey's.

 

So, is it part of track etiquette to remove one's helmet after an off?

Sounds like if you don't come off at that corner at Donnington then you're really not trying hard enough.

Ta for the constructive comments (and the lack of flames). I'll be there as a passenger at least.

 

i mustn't be trying hard enough then.

You dont have to go off track in order to be able to say you are trying. I would say if you do go off track then you are driving beyond your ability and should rethink your aproach.

It really does **** me off when i read all these threads at times, it seems you need to be visiting the gravel regularly to be considered a Hero, when in fact if you are going off all the time you are making bad mistakes as a driver and are waisting other peoples track time as they dig you out.

 

Sorry John, I was taking the urine. Hence the smiley.

I'd rather not come off a track, but as I've never been on one before I'd rather start somewhere where I'm not going to stuff my car or present a threat to other users.

This thread has made me wonder whether I should do a track day, and on balance if it makes me think "yes" and learn from someone else's misfortune then there's been a purpose in it all.

I'm going to attend as a spectator and hopefully passenger. I'd dearly love to be taken out by people who know what they're doing as I don't profess to driving excellence or even competence in the realm of high-performance driving. Any chance of booking passenger laps, with money to charity if appropriate?

Cheers,

Nick.

 

....I agree with Mr Felstead, as a road and stage rally navigator myself the gung - ho approach doesnt wash with me, those drivers i've been with who are out for the "big yeehah" but never finish an event are obviously not the "quote" better driver than someone who is marginally slower but doesnt throw it off... the amount of times I've sat in an upside down rally car looking at the driver and shaking my head before smacking him over the head with the roadbook Maybe track days are different ?? I dunno
John F - any chance of a passenger ride at Donnington??

 

I wont be at donington on the 18th, i will be competing in a rally in Canada

Everyone is welcome for a run on track with me, it's a shame i dont get more time on track to give passenger rides as there is always more demand than time. Just come say hi at the next event and i will do my best to get you out on track with me.

getting back to some of the questions. I would wholehartedly recomend Donington as a first track day, its a very easy track to build your speed up on gradually.

I would suggest you book Rob Mac or similar for your first few runs, getting the right advice from day one is crucial i believe. They will have you going faster, quicker and in greater safety than trying to take it all in by yourself.

I have sat in with a large number of novices myself to help out and its quite astoinding how much safer and quicker they are after a few laps of some very simple advice. Everyone makes diferent mistakes or bad judgments first time out, the best way of resolving these is to have an experienced person, preferably an ARDS instructor like Rob sat with you to guide you through the early stages.