In defence of my driving.
When at Donnington I did have tuition. I also took the advice of a rather nice Blow Dog who showed me the lines [after a fashion] and also noted my rather aggresive ... er style and suggested me driving smoother.
My driving [on the track] was greatly improved by the end of the day.
The reason [I believe] I came off was lifting off through Craners and unsettling the car.
I have been told this is a common error with track-day virgins when you should be keeping some traction as you go through. Time will tell.
When on the track I was trying to go as fast as I could. I reached the limit of my capability. I caused no problem for any other car out there [except the poor unfortunate behind me].
I went back on track after my incident [and a tenner in the local car wash] and still managed to end up enjoying my day.

 

And I had my tuition after my off as that was the earliest time I could book!

 

just got into work and read the thread.

Glad to hear that everyone is OK.

Not got anything more to add.

 

what a sobering thread and what sobering timing.....I was out for a track day at Monza on sunday, first track day since arriving in Italy, and was planning to take it easy to learn the track, learn the car (first track day in the elise), and just have fun, as there is no such thing as track-day insurance here, and I have no cash for a new car, nor repairs! Well, it was crazy to see the behaviour of most drivers, which displayed exactly the "I-must-be-on-the-limit" attitude that some have talked about. I mean....are we there to compete? No. Is there prize money at the end? No. Are we getting a big salary to be the fastest? No. Do we have spare cars...or worse spare lives? No. Well then why would I be travelling at a decent speed in my 111S around rather fast bends, and have anything from scoobys to hotted-up golfs and fiats, to ferraris, absolutely screaming up to me completely on the rugged edge? I mean, some of this cars where really nudging the limits, with fools in them trying to impress the mate or girl passenger, or the mates in the other cars. Lots of near misses but fortunately no crashes, but I think I'll spectate more and spend less time on track next time. I'm there to have fun and drive @ 80%, not to risk my finances nor my life: where is the fun in that? Even worse is to have some of these lonatics, who obviously don't think about this stuff until it happens to them and it's too late, kill my car or me in the process.

Sad but true, "open" trackdays are more and more the domain of irresponsable fools with more hp than braincells, no skill, and a deathwish.

Some of us are there to have fun, that's all, push at 80-90%, and get on track knowing 100% we'll get home happy.

Wall

 

You can see why Donno says, "No lap timing and no racing"

Trouble is you then get back and see comments about how quick someone was, and how so-and-so was only overtaken by someone else in a WestEvoCossie22b, so therefore that car must be faster etc etc.

Not to mention the pre-track day "banter" about how "we'll see the truth on the track".

I'm not impervious to this, and would probably also get the red mist coming down before a few laps (used to be quite good at racing bikes so my ego couldn't handle being overtaken) so I'll probably not take my car onto the track at an open track day. Maybe building a racing car and going club racing would be more appropriate.

R

 

i am as guilty as the next guy when it comes to pre-post banter.

The thing is, once on track in no way does that effect the way i drive.

I dont think everyone else can switch off that banter mode when they step into the car though, which is what does concern me right now.

I am trying to get accross that going off track is not what track days are about, pushing the car to 100% is not what track days are about.

I dread the day someone who i know hurts themselves badly doing a track day, i can see it coming unless attitudes change.

I have been around racing and rallying a long time, fatalities and serious injuries do happen regretable, but those who compete accept that risk and do everything in there power to make the car safe to withstand the inevitable crashes that are part of the sport.

You guys are not in that position though, you are in pretty fragile road cars, with normal 3 point seat belts. You are far more vulnerable to injury than if you were in a race car.

So maybe driving with that fact in mind may be a good idea?

 

Well said John,

Seems we need to calm down a bit all round.

Lee

 

I think we all get competitive when on the track and want to be 'faster' than others. The difference is how far you push it. John is absolutely right - surely you need to keep a safety margin or it's going to cost you loads for one. But secondly, already certain Trackday companies have been criticised for the standard of driving (one reason behind BHLG reduced availability of tracks). We dont want SIDC to lose respect, so we need to be careful. Of course pushing the car close to the limit is what these days are all about, otherwise there seems little point to me. The issue is how close we get to those limits. If people are spinning off regularly something needs to change, and really that just comes down to peoples attitudes. Scooby days are very competitive due to the closeness in performance we all have. The days I have done where I was the only Scooby were much more relaxed, but each to their own, provided it doesnt affect the ability to book tracks.

 

I must be missing something here, I go on track to push the car and myself to the limit.

I admit, I only go too fast on the slower corners / ones with a large runoff, preferably to the infield.

Why would anyone wan't to pay this much money not to drive fast

(Ps I have not come off yet but have had the car out of shape a fair number of times)

Maybe I shouldn't be coming to SIDC events ?

 

Gary,

I agree you should be able to push your car to the limits on a track day but none of us want a four car pile up at the end of the pit straight with people in hospital its in this situation we need to calm down.

Donnington two weeks ago seemed more relaxed with people checking mirrors and moving over, pre and post race banter still applied, Oulton had more of an hard edged race feeling. Every time you heard tyre squeal you expected a red flag. Mistakes can happen and people get caught out so I'm not calling anyone because I wasn't driving.

Thats just my feelings and I may be wrong other people may have other opinions and thats OK. Wouldn't stop going to SIDC events though Gary. If there's a problem I'm sure it will be sorted soon.

Lee

 

Chiark,

If you are worried about track days and damaging your car, try an airfield day. You will not feel so pressurised to perform well (there is usually little or no spectators) and the tracks are far more forgiving with plenty of run-off.

I know a couple of people who did these prior to Donno and felt a lot more comfortable knowing what to expect when the get on a "proper" racetrack.

Darren

 

This seems very hard to get across without sounding a spoil sport boring fart (which if you have seen my car on track you know isnt the case). I am not in any way against pushing the cars limits, but doing it to the point where you are going off track on a regular basis and judgeing the fact you are at the limit because you loose it and go off is doing you nothing but harm.

These are just my opinions, i dont run events or have any interest, except those of your and my safety.

It just seems to me that if someone doesnt state the fact that track days are not about loosing control of the car and going off regularly then some people inexperienced in these matters may think that is the way it should be done, its isnt.

I recieve a fair number of mails off line from people reading these posts, and i start to worry about the current image that is growing right now when i get mails saying they thought that spinning off is normal acceptable behavour.

Someone is going to get hurt or worse if we dont stop this attitude spreading.

I probably still havn't got what i am trying to say accross very elequently, what can i say, i am a northern monkey LOL

 

The reason I go to these things (and airfield days even more so) is to learn what the car / I will do in the event I overcook it.

This I would rather do an a racetrack, as even though it's still dangerous, it is far less dangerous to come of on a racetrack then an A/B road.

Maybe I'm getting confused about 'on the limit' is, from what you guys are saying, people are coming off regularly.

I must admit, people did seem to come off a little more regularly at the SIDC event (Donno 17th) that I have been too. I did find it a little more 'aggressive' than the other things I've been too. I wouldn't say unduly so though in either case.

Ps I have not noticed the attitude John is talking about myself

Pps John, I can assure you - you do not drive like a boring old fart

[This message has been edited by Gary Foster (edited 29 January 2001).]

 

right on john. In racing they say that if you don't have the occasional spin crash you are not trying hard enough. But in FUN NON COMPETITIVE TRACK DRIVING if you are having such episodes you are definitely trying too hard and endangering your, and others, finances and health. FUN NON COMPETITIVE TRACK DRIVING is about having fun with your car, driving it at 80-90% of your ability when on the roads you can only push it to 30-40% ..... not trying to push at 101%. That's just stupid. Where is the fun when you have no car left and you owe the bank 20k? Or when you are in hospital? Or on a wheelchair? C'mon guys, driving fast is dangerous so have fun but know and respect your limits. If you are almost losing it on a regular basis you are not.
I've had a spin once, and two or three near spins, as we can all make mistakes or get a little too confident. But when you have cars going off everywhere, people tailgating, overtaking on fast bends, overshooting braking points and getting all out of shape due to trying too hard, etc, all on the ragged edge of their ability, it's just dangerous and no longer fun.

wall

[This message has been edited by wall (edited 29 January 2001).]

 

John, I think your points are pretty well made though (not joking or sucking up)...

There is indeed a big difference between the normal banter "ooh, I'm gonna kick your <fill in expletive> next trackday", and actually running on track.

First priority should be that everybody should be able to get back to the pub and continue the banter after the trackday ...

An example I witnessed myself (and he will hate me for it): Harj is one of the top banter guys, but actually his behaviour on the Ring looked *very* sensible to me. From all I could see, he drove around with a lot of sympathy for the car and the conditions(sorry Harj )

About those limits ... maybe I'm a *really* bad driver then, compared to most, but my *own* limits are still far below those of my car. And I want to push it to 90 % of *my* limits and hope that with the experience gained my limits come a bit closer to the cars limits. I've only done 5 trackdays now, but I've seen enough accidents to know for sure that I would slap myself silly if an accident would be due to my stupid driving.

Even if I'm still far away from those car limits, I hope to have a rollcage/harness fitted before my next track day, so I'm a bit more protected from my own stupid mistakes.

For gawd sake, we should leave our ego's in the pitlane when we take off. I'll be happy to be the slowest driver on track, why not ? We're not comparing ¨d*cks here, we just want to have fun - and yes, feel some adrenalin. Sure, there's always a risk involved, but we can do without the unneeded ones. Difficult enough as it is.

I haven't been at Oulton, so I could not possibly comment on that day itself, but if a guy like RobMac gets so angry on this bbs, there must be something going on...

Therefor, I think this thread is one of the best ever about track days ... and thanks JF for being so vocal about it !

Of course, I would still kick your asses next time on track though *

Theo

* in case it is not clear: I'm joking, believe me ...

 

Wall

You reckon people don't push it 101% on the road ? have you not seen the pictures of crashed cars on here ?

I would rather anyone experience lift off oversteer, the effect of trail braking or chronic understeer on a race track before they experience it inadvertantly on the road. Thats a road with traffic, horses, kids etc etc coming the other way. Not to mention trees and banks to hit themselves.

Ps I drive incredibly slowly on the road.

Pps I don't think for one second I drive as extremely as a lot of the people on here do on the track

 

gary,
of course people push it at 101% on the roads too. Stupidity is not limited to race tracks, I know. In fact, on the road the stupidity-factor increases exponentially for the factors you mentioned (trucks, kids, bycicles, houses, etc).
I have even more of a problem with those not knowing the safe limits on the roads then those doing it on track.
sh&t I sound like such I bore....I actually drive as fast if not faster than most other cars I've been around on the road or track, but I like to think that I am careful enough to stay well within my limits on the road, and a little within my limits on the track. People know when they, and their machinery, are on the rugged edge: some choose to ignore it, until it hurts them or their wallets. I just hope they don't hurt me or others who are just having safe fun.

wall

 

Wall

Hang on, aren't Italians renowned for driving sensibly and never breaking the speed limits ? (Esp when piloting noisy red cars with prancing horses on the front)

Lol, only joking (run and duck for cover)

 

TRAGIC!!!
How much for the wheels?
Would they fit the pre MY01 model easily enough?

 

I think this is all getting a bit arsey to be honest.

Some of you have indeed had a lot of track experience, but at the end of the day the majority of you dont race cars for a living. We are just a load of normal blokes turning up in road cars and flying round the track. Some are experienced, and others are new to the game. The "Old hats" need to remember that some will be on track for their first attempt, and in the excitement will make errors.

Stop being so almighty and keep it how it should be. Some of the comments on here would make me think twice about going to a track day for my first go on track.

Great day out though!!!

 

John.
Gravel? Offs? Hmmmmm....I wonder who your comments are specifically aimed at?

Let me explain my personal thoughts on track days.
When I bought my Scoob, one of the main things I wanted to do with it was take it on a track. I didn't, nor do I, consider myself anything other than an average driver with perhaps a slightly generous helping of enthusiasm!
To me, a track offers a relatively safe environment on which to learn the limits of me and my car. Sure, I have a reputation for spinning and visiting the gravel on a number of occasions but I would like to think that I learnt something each time. I enjoy sliding my car round bends, and I'd never attempted it before I got on a track. Sometimes I got it wrong, but a track is surely a better place to try than the road? Only once have I left the track through 'normal' driving, the time I had to choose between slamming into the rear of a slow car that unfortunately moved into my line or leave the track and hope for the best. Perhaps if I was a better driver I could have avoided both the other car and the tyre wall, but I didn't. Luckily, my car was still driveable and my passenger and I were unhurt. I learned more from that experience than anything else I've ever experienced in my driving life.
I would like to think that my times in the gravel are behind me now. I think I've learned enough to avoid it unneccessarily, touch wood!
If people want to go on track and pootle round just to savour the experience, that's up to them. I don't. I enjoy driving on the limit, it's what gives me the buzz. Some of you guys have a motorsport background and have been driving on tracks for many years, and it's easy to comeon here and criticise other people's driving. I haven't, but maybe in ten years time I'll be saying what you are.
My point is, we all have to start somewhere. Now that I'm the organiser for SIDC events, I have to set a good example for other members. This new position will hopefully only add to my learning curve and make me a better and safer driver. In the meantime, I hope to carry on driving in the manner to which I am accustomed, albeit in a more controlled manner.
I enjoy it, and my passengers seem to enjoy it. It's got sod all to do with wanting to be the fastest person on track, I'll leave that to the people with over-powered, lightweight canoes!
It was the club's first visit to Oulton, and few people knew the track. Donno is different. Hopefully we can learn from Oulton and seek to improve future events.
We will, and we'll start at Donno next month.

Stef.

 

Stef, my comments are aimed at everyone. The sooner people wake up to the fact that they are driving road cars and not race cars the better. I am just trying to get you people thinking a little.

As for your comment about trying to be the fastest, all i am doing on track is having fun, my competitive driving is in my past right now because i dont have the funds to do it properly. I am very competitive, 2nd is no good for me in a race situation which means i will spend every penny i have to go and win. Thats why i dont compete anymore.

It would be very wrong of me to just sit back and watch people suck themselves in to an avoidable disaster. All i want to do at the end of the day is pass on some of my experience to others, to stop them making mistakes that could destroy there lives.

This is a serious subject that needs an open debate, it is not about having a go at any one person in particular. Try and have an open mind about this. I have seen a fellow competitor be paralised in a bad crash at a race meeting, i dont want to see any of you suffer that kind of injury by trying too hard in what are very unprotected road cars.

If these comments make me look all high and mighty then so be it, at least i have tried to educate you a little. It's up to you what you do with your lives, i am certainly no nanny for you. Just open your mind and think in advance about your aproach to driving, most importantly, be honest with yourself, it is very easy to just dismiss these thoughts untill its too late.

Finally, there is no such thing as an overpowered car, just an underpowered brain.

 

Again I must support what Jonfelstead is saying. Most people on here refer to getting their car out of shape when it jumps a few inches and sh+ts them up and when it recovers into a steady state they think that they are Burnsy. Trouble is at that point they are probably within 10% of it getting really out of shape and unless you have the psychomotor experiencial pre-programming to react without thought, 99% of drivers are in the lap of the gods. One of my close friends was tragically killed a couple of years ago driving a fully prepared Cozzy on a special stages rally. The stage was on a RAC approved tarmac race circuit in Lincs. He hit the armco end and it cut into the car behind the front drivers side wheel, sliced its way through to the gearbox and came back out near the drivers side rear wheel. Martin (Fatty to his friends)was a top clubman driver with countless clubman rally wins and championships under his belt. He was very talented and I know jonfelstead will remember the incident. Fact is that when sideways at 80mph, even a full Gp A welded cage with double door bars failed to stop the end of a piece of armco slicing through the car like a knife through butter and killing my mate. In rallying we have a saying which is 'To finish first, first you have to finish' its a quote that makes a lot of sense indeed.
Jonfelstead is being polite as am I but we are all grown men and women on here and everyone has to face up to reality and listen to those who know. The culture to which jonfelstead refers is not only going to end up with someone being killed but will end such access to tracks and circuits full stop.

This is the most interesting thread yet and I would like to say that no matter what you have contributed to it, beit contreversial or otherwise, there is a lot of thought provoking messages in its content and should at least make people consider the real issues.

Thank you all

Mike@PD


[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 29 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 29 January 2001).]

 

Sorry typing is no good !

[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 29 January 2001).]

 

Amen Steff

John

I hope (esp with your recent comments) we all understand the dangers involved in track driving - I think this is fairly obvious given the price paid for a days track insurance.

To me though, in all honesty, I go on track to drive fast. If I drive fast on track I feel I will be a safer driver on the road.

If I drove at 80% It would be pointless. What is there I can learn which would help me to deal with emergencies on the road ?

How can this not be so !

 

Just read Mike's post

Haven't got much to add, but

What is the point in driving around a race track if you are going to poodle around.

This is not a cheap experience, I can drive slowly on the carriageways.

(And yes, I appreciate you are only trying to help by making *completely clear* the dangers involved. And even a pratt like myself Appreciates having this spelt out by people who know what thay are talking about (Mike + John))

Gary

[edit Mike said 'Most people on here refer to getting their car out of shape when it jumps a few inches and sh+ts them']

Hey thats me ! (well I have to say it always feels like more than a couple of feet actually ) thank christ the car's always fixed it for me. I was never in any doubt that it was the car that saved me. Hell thats why I drive an Impreza - cause I'm a bleeding numpty.

[This message has been edited by Gary Foster (edited 29 January 2001).]

 

Gary, i am not getting accross to you what i mean, this is obvious. I also go on track to drive quickly, craner at 130MPH isnt exactly slow.

Next track day we are at together lets sit down and have a chat, maybe i'll come out for a run with you if you like.

It's very healthy to have this sort of discusion in the open, if it stimulates your mind even slightly then its worth while.

 

John.
I was just wondering how many other people 'regularly visit(ed) the gravel' that's all?
I do have an open mind but we are taling here as though someone rolls their car at every event!
I have only been doing track days for two years, and in all that time have only ever seen two serious incidents involving Scoobies, neither in which anyone was hurt badly.
Yes, too much education is never a bad thing, but it's unfair to have a go at anyone that goes off and label tham a bad driver. Yes, there are probably better ways and places to learn about car control but for me at the time the track was the place.
Now though, we have airfields and lots of driving courses available. Mike, it would appear you are involved in some form of driving tuition?
We all have a lot to learn, and I hope one day I am in a position to offer advice to others.
Oh, and what gave you the impression my comment about over-powered cars was aimed at you?

Stef.

PS Mike. Why not viit an SIDC event and see what you think?

 

What can i say? I give up.

 

John

130Mph Is about 30Mph faster through craners than I went !!!!

So I'm not pushing the car, my abilities are not in your league however

Yes would be nice to have a chat, I wish I could have gone out last time with you TBH, and yes I would appreciate some tuition from the passenger seat.

I'll just keep waffling on until then though.