My wife will be accompanying myslef at Dono and will also be driving the 22B as its her first time on track so im planning on getting an instructor for her cus I know it will only end ion tears if I go out with her

 

It seems from reading this, that the lack of instructors for newbies is a wide-spread problem.

How can we fix this ?

How many instructors does SIDC/organisers pay for ?

How many more do we need ?

How much more would it cost ?

Are the instructors solely there for tuition, or do they have other duties that distract them ?

 

I Agree with you guys re being V nervous the first time out on track.

Last Donno was my first time out on a real track. Luckily when I went out there was someone to follow (who was thankfully not going very fast either).

Warm up laps are very useful - but more useful to people who are experienced on track but not familiar with the one in question.

I like Stefs idea of 15 mins (thats about right) of follow my leader. Maybe you could start of Very slowly then build up to an acceptable speed. Everyone could learn the lines / how fast you actually can go without pushing it.

What you really need is someone to take you out for about 5 laps, then swap over to the passenger seat and talk you through for at least another 5.

Just knowing simple things like what gear to be in for each corner can help tremendously.

(I had this type of Instruction at Goodwood - I really needed more, but even so it was a godsend)

Ps I have always had track insurance. Echo Johns comments, if I smash into you, you are on your own, my insurance won't pay out and neither will I (sorry !)

 

Is this the longest thread EVER!

 

With regard to the beginners issue;

When you first take up motorcycle racing you are a novice and have to wear an orange jacket to signify to other that you are a novice. When you have completed a set number of events and have attained a set number of points you are then deemed to be of sufficient experience to get rid of the novice title and jacket.

Would this approach work with non-competetive track days. Make first timers and the inexperienced display a novice mark somewhere on their car - a flourescent orange rear number plate blank for instance - which could then be removed after completion of say, 5 events.

Chris.

 

Chris B walking the track suggestion were you at oulton ? it was f***** freezing had i have walked the circuit i would probably have slipped and landed on my **** at the first and i don't think my insurance covered the eventuality ad stuffing myself into a barrier without being surronded by my tin box and you can forget skating around Lodge besides the point you know everyone would only end up turning it into a race and taking each other on the inside and i had nowhere near enough tread on my loafers.
but you never know it may of helped those who don't know the track.

Regards

Tim

 

Excelent suggestions lads, im sure Stef and Rob Mac will take these into consideration, the track walk is a good idea as we had to go out in People Carriers and were driven around the circuit at the RS National day at Silverstone. This was really helpful and prepared us for when we went on track, maybe this can be incorporated into an SIDC for all newbies to the specific track?

Harj...

 

OK, now we're getting somewhere.

DB.
We normally have two instructors at SIDC events, which should be enough. Donno's own days have none really, as Rob is normally there as a chief marshall more than an instructor. At our events he's there purely to help fellow drivers.

So perhaps a 1/2hr session in the morning set aside for newbies, accompanied by anyone that knows the circuit relatively well. The actual 'instruction' doesn't necessarily all have to occur at this point as the instructors are there all day, but it should be long enough for the newbies to get acclimatised to the layout of the track under less pressure.
The idea of a couple of faster cars out for the last 15mins 'practising' overtaking maneouveres is also a good one, perhaps identified by using their headlights?
A bright sticker on the rear (plate) of newbies cars is also a good idea, nothing too large, it just needs to be visible to approaching drivers who will hopefully then be more considerate.
I think we can sort these things out if people like the ideas.

Stef.



[This message has been edited by Stef (edited 31 January 2001).]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Chris B walking the track suggestion were you at oulton<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I was. I got there before the track opened. It was warmer than Donno' a few weeks ago!

Chris.

 

Some sound ideas, and as a track novice, the following would put me at ease.

1. If its not open pit, do ducks and drakes for the first session to learn the lines and then a debrief afterward to ensure drivers know the hazzards i.e. off camber corners, slippy/wet parts of the track.

2. If it is open pit, how about the first 15 minutes for beginners only so they don't get intimidated by the speed of faster drivers blasting past until they understand the track better.

Keep up the good work lads

thanks

S

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>My wife will be accompanying myslef at Dono and will also be driving the 22B <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AT LAST!!!! We've managed to sign a decent driver for BSRT

Seriously..

I've been very lucky in my trackdays.

1st time was at Knockhill and I managed to have JohnS sit alongside me for the first few laps.. Must admit it was really to be told "ah you're fine mate, drop me in the pits and away you go".

2nd. John Felstead sat with me at Donnington and really improved my driving. Much smoother and faster after his tuition.

3rd time was the National day at silverstone. Now they had instructors available for 10 quid per session.. So I signed up for 60 quids worth.. 6 sessions that day. Then by grabbing the same instructor for each session, I had my own personal track tuition day. Was also very handy when one of the Sapphires tried to drive me off the circuit. Silly b3gger didn't realise I had an instructor on board until he was black flagged

One thing I do when at a new track is to try to get an instructor for the first session.

Stef it may even be worth considering running an event that is newbies only.. That is for people that have done less than 5 or 6 track days. Something like a 1/2 day track day school, looking not only at driving and track etiquette but mechanical issues as well. Then in the second half the instructors/experienced people could join in as well.

Also why not have Newbies (which I still consider myself to be) carry the X on the rear of their cars like newly licensed racers.

Richard

 

Rich.
We are already looking at an SIDC newbie day, something similar to what Alex has been talking about elsewhere. The 1/2 day thing sounds good. Newbies could pay for either a 1/2 day and get loads of tuition on a near empty track or a full day and be joined by the 'vets' after lunch, who just pay for 1/2 day. I like that Rich, nice one.
It all comes down to cost at the end of the day I suppose. There's no doubt a venue like Donno is ideal for this, but to make it cost effective we'd have to take another day at short notice, like the Feb 18th day. Perhaps issuing just 30 places for the morning with the remainder of the after-lunch slots being made available to whoever? It may even be worth investing in more instructors as well?
I'll see what I can do.
Where's Donno's phone number......

Stef.

 

Great stuff...!

I'd be more than happy to comply with the ideas above. Wear my L plate, etc. with pride!!

As soon as my SIDC membership is through, I'll be sticking my name forward for track time.

Cheers,
Squizz.

PS - Was there any scrutineering at Oulton? Only I had to undergo that torture at Castle Coombe...Maybe Dingy wouldn't have slowed you up then?

 

My experience of driving on a track is limited to Saloon car and formula VW at Mondello Park in Ireland. The day was started with a briefing with a map of the track and it pointed out where all the brakeing points,turn in points, apex and accelleration points are. This was also highlighted on the track by means of coloured cones and they were set out at a safe limit. For example the brakeing point cone was set at 150 feet from the corner and you were told to start feeding in the brakes from there till your confidence grew. After a few laps brakeing distances could be shortened and accelleration could be applied earlier. I hope this has not already been mentioned.

Cheers

Alan

 

i called up at listers on saturday 20 th jan and the very same car had a sold sticker on it, how come ?
mark

 

A "newbie" day is a great idea.

Oulton was my first track day.

There is a lot to think about while on track if you are new and it is made very difficult with the more experienced guys breathing down your bumper.

A more "relaxed" familiarisation process to track driving for newbies, and people ( experienced or not) to new tracks, combined with decent instruction, would be very beneficial and make everyone's day safer as far as I can see.

I know I briefly held a couple of people up at Oulton ( Stef and a red 5 dr?), not through ignorance but probably concentrating too much round the bends. I spent half the time letting everyone by as I just wanted to go at my own pace, and not lose it big style and take someone else with me.

So, bring on the newbie days please and apologies if I pi55ed anyone off.

 

Russell.
No probs mate. Myself and I'm sure other 'trackies' have no problem sitting behind cars until it's safe to pass, especially round bends where you can't pass anyway. The worse offenders are those that don't move over during a complete lap and those that aren't patient enough to wait at least a lap before ovrtaking on the wrong side.
Sort these problems out and track days will be perfect.....ish.

Stef.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HUNTY:
<B>
Is this the longest thread EVER! [/quote]

If only.......

 

Watch it squire. Ta for the mention though

Amazing what 15 minutes with someone giving basic tips can do if you have an open mind isnt it m8

I think this discusion is becoming very productive.

It would certainly be a HUGE help for me on open track events if we had a system of novice crosses on the rear of the car like are used in circuit racing. Anything that helps me to determine what experience people have when i come to pass them can only be a good thing.

I understand what its like when all this track driving is new to you, your using up so much of your mental capacity just trying to work out what you should be doing yourself, it leaves very little for other things like looking out for fast aproaching pocket missiles. Thats why i always drive with my headlights on, at least it gives you a fighting chance of seeing me.

Walking the track would take too long chris, i used to do this when i competed in sprints but that was mainly because you had just 5 runs lasting 1 minute, driving the track gives far more oportunity to build your speed gradually so i dont believe its required or even of any use to a novice.

I really like the idea of a 15-30 minute session for the complete novices to go out on there own and learn without pressure. I believe the first 30 minutes on any track are the most vital to getting the most out of the day in safety. I would be more than happy to drop everything and sit with people if there arent enough ARDS trained instructors to go round.

I think having the novices out first session is a mistake though, i think it would be more beneficial for them to go out second session. That way they have 20 minutes to sit down quietly and take in what was said in the briefing and read the briefing sheet that they will get from Rob or Stef. (we must get that sorted, i think it is essential).

It will also give them chance to have a look on the pit wall at what track driving is all about, without thinking "****, i am out first". I know from when i started sprinting (a long time ago ) i was first out on track and i didnt like it.

Also, if the experienced people go on track first, it gives 20 minutes or so of cars cleaning the track of all the **** that makes it very slippy. If its a little greasy or icy it also means the people who are happy to find the state of the track can advise the newbies of the conditions, again taking the presure off them.

What do u think?

 

I have a policy of only drive other people's cars on track!!!

First time - Silverstone - Formula Ford - the missus paid (ta dear).

Second time - Brands - Astra Coupe - courtesy Vauxhall.

Third time - Mallory Park - Golf GTI/Lotus Elise/Ferrari 308/Formula Ford/Formula Vauxhall Lotus/Tyrrell F1 - courtesy Autocar.


Anyone want me to give their Scoob/EVO etc an outing just apply above....

 

John.
I guess there'd be no harm in setting aside the first 1/2 hour for experienced chaps to give them their 'fix', and then allocating the next 1/2 hour to the newbies. They can then sit with each other in both sessions.
Perhaps we should try it at Donno and see how it works?
I can ask people as they sign in whether they consider themselves a 'novice' and issue a sticker of some description to them. A white cross? A luminous circle? Ideas?

Stef.

 

Stef

Black Cross on Yellow background = Novice ( &lt; 1 year experience in Motor Racing ).

And I was trying for post no 200

 

Sounds good to me Stef.

Why dont we use what is used in MSA race meetings, you can't miss them.

It's very simple. Have a bright yellow background with a black cross on it. If we make this say half the size of a standard rear number plate, have it sticky back plastic blue peter style then people can just stick it on the number plate for the day. Easy peasy.

I know this sounds a bit naff, but hows about a small sticker that you can give the newbies to apply to there dash under the rev counter. It would simply have an arrow pointing right, just as a reminder that if someone aproaches from behind to move to the right.

If you've got someone who is a little flustered, there is nothing better than a quick and easy visual aid to calm things down.

 

Black cross on yellow background it is then.
I can get Stikki Pete to make the stickers up. Is it rectangular, circular or oval? Any picci's anywhere?
Not sure about the arrow though John, we'll be asking them to play TOCA next!
Still, if the newbies want them...

Stef.

 

One system used to be fairly easy to administer a bit like Stef suggested at the start of the day you ask each person to opt for one of three groups as follows.

1. 1 st timers / beginners & the nervous.

2. intermidiates ( done a bit of track work )

3. fast & confident ( experienced at track days ).

This system gives everybody what they want and after lunch you can opt to go up or down a group the system eleviates alot of pressure often experienced but not discussed by many due to ego or embarassment such as tailgaiting and trying to pursue / follow somebody quicker . i have run this system on bike track days and i have to say it worked very well and people respected each others choice of classification more than if everyone had just gone out there and tried to compete or keep pace as on bikes i can assure you its far more lethal a combination and with regard to mix surprisingly enough it works out about an even 33 % in each category

it also would keep everybody happy in regards to number of cars on track at any one time and each group is let out to do say 6 laps each then the next group goes out giving the previous group time to cool down both cars and themselves.

anyway thats my opinion whether or not it would be workable is down to the attendees
and the difficulty of organising it and of course peoples honesty but i would think given the people i spoke to on saturday the latter would not be a problem.

Regards

Tim.

 

[Playing devils advocate here]

I'm all up for safety on the track and some structure, but let's not get carried away - in case it all turns into bureacracy. A guy with 50 hours of track time (and without an L plate) isn't necessarily more safe to be around than a guy with only a few hours.

Having a sticker on the back of a newbie, won't make the newbie more safe.

And in my opinion, you should be treating everyone on the track as novices - unpredictable and with a mind of their own (or not).

If you drive with the utmost care round whoever you see on the track, you should be OK.

I think (for SIDC trackdays) there should be an early morning session (only an hour - let's not consume the day) where whoever feels they NEED tuition can have it, for the safety of him and others.

 

As an outsider I agree with david - some people seem to be trying to lead a dream world of a racing career on the track at what is supposed to be a fun day.
If a car holds you up for a couple of straight - whats the big deal - you have all day on track....

People make mistakes, but give them a bit of time and have a word if they are amazingly bad on their manners. Is a trackday not just a fun day out?

Martin

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NITO:
<B>Cem...I think I'll bring a jug of warm water, a J and a B with me next trackday for a laugh

[/quote]

JLOWDOB ??

 

aside from this being a great productive thread.....IS IT THE RECORD LONGEST IN THE HISTORY OF THE BBS?

wall

 

Ok My 2p's worth.

As a complete track virgin, but someone I hope with a little common sense I would suggest the following format for SIDC track days.

1.Arrive and everyone attends the briefing.
2. First 1/2 hour session is given over to the experienced drivers.

This would enable them to
A. Gauge the track conditions before newbies went out.
B. Give rides to the newbies so as they know, at least where the road is and where the grass is.
C. Have a go before the mobile chicanes(me) come out.
D. Give JF time to unmelt things in his westie
E. Give the newbies time to give their car one last inspection before they go out.

Then

1/2 hour session for newbies only, WITH instructors/old hands. I would'nt make this compulsary but STRONGLY recomended.
Newbies would have the stickers as outlined above.

I would also suggest that the number of people allowed on track at one time be halved at this point. The last thing we want is another car spinning and getting T-boned.

Anyway after the first hour and half, normal trackday.

Couple of questions remain. How long would 'newbie' status remain and how would 'experienced' status be gained. It would be easy to produce a small paper log book on which a stamp could be gained for each track day attended. Bad behavoir would be rewarded by having a stamp cancelled. Thus an experienced track hand could find themselves trundling around with the rest of the track newbies if badly behaved enough. The provision of log books is easy, they buy em. Track days are expensive so what's an extra coupla quid and an ink stamp at the end of day?

I can't see how the above can be too much redtape. Everyone get's a go, in the safest environment possible.

When I went to brands I was impressed with the amount of backup and support for drivers. It would be worthwhile letting people know in advance what is available and how much(typically) things cost. Full credit to Stef for organising things.




[This message has been edited by Neil Smalley (edited 01 February 2001).]