Martin2005

Well aparantly they are considering an a very wide ranging scope for this enquiry, which can surely only be a good thing.

Some are even pressing for a scope so wide that it covers PM Thatchers sales of WMD related technology to Saddam in the early 80s. Thats probably stretching it a bit far, and could easily be used a way of distracting from the more immediate issues.

richieh

About post 21 I asked you a question. Since then you have avoided answering the question in a series of very weak attacks and diversionary tactics typical of a poor manager or politician.
To make it easier for you i will repeat the question.
Given the results of the Kelly enquiry would you trust the results of another enquiry? -some reference material can be found here david kelly attending paramedics doubt - Google Search
Simple yes or no would suffice.
My reasoning is to enquire for myself then consider what evidence is available and make a descision based on that not blindly accept what i am told by those who think they are my betters. I am sorry if this doesnt fit in with your sheep like mentality to accept what you are spoon fed but thats the curiousity of the human mind I'm afraid-you should try it some time
cheers
richie

Martin2005

This was a reasoned debate, then you post this????

I want the truth, I want to know what happened, why dont you?

Why are so afraid of an enquiry, I don't care who does it as long as it presents the facts and reaches a fair conclusion based upon the evidence...why do you find that position so difficult?


Let's hope this enquiry covers the Kelly affair again. But as with all of this you wont be happy until something is found that you WANT to believe.

And if I had a 'sheep like mentality', I'd be with you and the rest of the looney toon conspiracy theorist on here wouldn't I? The very friggin reason you want to attack me is because I'm NOT the sheep here FFS.

I have absolutley no idea where you are coming from on this issue, I don't understand how you can be so sure of the facts that you don't think an enquiry can help, and I have no idea whatsoever at what point you might be persuaded differently by an enquiry. You seem far more interested in trying to insult me than getting to the truth

richieh

Oh god this is like swimming in cement.
Once again you ignore the question i asked.
I am not afraid of any enquiry i just dont believe that the full truth will come out given the outcome of the Kelly enquiry.
I'd say you were sheep like IF you blindly follow what you are told without thinking for yourself.
So i will ask you again-would you trust the results of this new enquiry given the way important evidence in the Kelly enquiry was ignored/ dismissed?
Please feel free to further ignore the question and come back with another piece telling me what i am thinking though .
cheers richie

Martin2005

I don't understand what the big issue is with the Kelly report, I honestly don't. Do I believe the government had him killed, well no I think that is unlikely. Should I ignore the hutton report and just believe he bumped off by Tony Blair, err no again.

I keep saying lets get to the truth, don't we both want that?

As for your question, I am happy to accept the results of a full public enquiry that has proper terms of refference run by a non-partisan and repretable judge, then absolutely yes,....wouldn't you?

richieh

Ineed i would like the truth but personally am not convinced that we will get it.
Are there any judges that are not appointed by the home office then? if so then perhaps but untill the judiciary are seperated from politics(whatever party) i cant see it happening due to vested interests eg wanting to stay a judge.
Got to go to work now for the princely sum of £6 ph but in the morning i'll try to explain my concerns over the Kelly enquiry so you can decide if they have any merit.
cheers richie

hodgy0_2

With enquiries alot depends on the frame of reference which in turn dictates the questions that can be asked.

The Government gave a very very tight frame of reference for the Kelly enquiry and appointed a very clever choice of Judge, I’m not saying he was Govt stooge, but the Govt certainly knew from his reputation that he would keep to the “script” as defined in the terms of reference.

It’s easy to get the answers you want if you frame the questions in the correct way, but the problem with the totally cynical view is that it leads to things like the 9/11 deniers who all believe (see my earlier post on Belief) it was a US government plot despite all the evidence to the contrary.


The bare facts are undeniable, they said Iraq had WMD, Tony Blair told an interviewer at the time when pressed on this “if you knew what I knew” – well what did he know?

I have my own personal opinions, but if a “no holds barred” proper independent enquiry was held I would accept the results

ultimatly it maybe left to history to provide the ultimate judgement

richieh

just in from work to find hodgy0_2 has beaten me to most of it will just add this Kelly death paramedics query verdict | UK news | The Observer -same report in all newspapers in case you think the one i selected is politically biased-its things like this that give me little faith in any govt organised enquiry due to their ability to pick and choose what evidence is listened to.
cheers
richie

Leslie

What is your answer to that Martin?

Les

Martin2005

My answer, why does my answer matter?

Well for what it's worth, the same as I keep saying; lets have a full public enquiry into all these events.

Is there another answer?

Leslie

The whole point though is that can we trust the result of such an enquiry after all that has gone before? That was the original question earlier oin this thread. It is an indication of the degree of trust in politicians placed by the people these days.

My question was based on what you thought of the evidence given by the paramedics which was not accepted by the enquiry?

Les

richieh

Your answer matters due to you dismissing anyone who doesnt agree with your middle management rosey tinted view on this as a conspiracy theorist-so why do you think the evidence of a pair of 'experts' should be not even looked at by the enquiry?
Also given the ability to pick and choose which evidence they listen to do you honestly believe the truth on these type of matters will ever be aired in the public domain?
cheers richie

Martin2005

Well all thats left then is cynicism; if you will not have an enquiry because you refuse to believe it will be fair and balanced. Where on earth do we go from there?

I'm as keen on the truth (warts and all), I don't have a dog in this fight. Having said that I don't understand what the logical conclusion is to the Kelly affair, it's counter-intuitive to think that he was killed by the government AFTER he had spilled the beans. Do we have some rougue elements in M15?? perhaps maybe thats the answer

What kind of enquiry would satisfy you, because I want the same?

richieh

I've not said no enquiry but i dont believe any enquiry run/organised by any govt will be open and truthful given that they will ignore evidence which is plainly what they did with the paramedics in the Kelly case.

Did Dr Kelly tell all he knew do you think or was he viewed as a 'ticking time bomb' by those in authority?

No one has mentioned MI5 apart from you but to use a historical quote "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest". (try google if you dont understand the significance of the quote btw)

So do you honestly believe that we will get a truthful transparent enquiry when its invoked by those with a vested interest in the 'right' result?

In my personal experience(which you have no clues about before you make more assumptions) those in a position of power will do all they can to hold on to that power by fair means or foul regardless of the consequences untill they are caught out or kicked out.

Feel free to think before you answer any of the above, or if you like keep ignoring the facts with your fingers in your ears shouting I cant hear you and keep telling everyone how great everything is when to almost everyone else it isnt.
cheers richie

Tidgy

tbh i can't see the point in this.

y spend millions of tax payers pounds, when its not gonna change a thing, make no difference to us whatsoever, especialy when theres bigger fish to fry, like the economy.

Martin2005

Lets move on

richieh

Sorry but i'm not trying to wind you up -I've asked you a few genuine questions which youve evaded quite while well whilst coming back with comments calling me and others names and avoiding the issues which entitles me to use a similar barbed attitude towards yourself.
If you are not prepared to consider my veiwpoints and cannot dismiss them with fact or prove me wrong then feel free to **** off yourself.
failing that dig me up on msn and try talking to me there as this isnt the best way of trying to have a reasoned conversation to say the least and it may be easier for you to understand my veiwpoint and you can have a good swear at me without any fear of someone infracting you or rtm'ing you etc.
To me it seems we are at polar opposites whereby i am a realist but for whatever reason you seem to err on the side of idealist which is great but doesnt mean we cant flog out some kind of common ground over this does it?

My stance is that i'd love the truth but dont see it coming out and i've asked you if you do.
You've evaded answering this and got increasingly tetchy-ffs i know its monday too and i dont like it any more than you do
I know lets try this to start heading toward common ground-petrol is too expensive do you agree(if you say gordon deserves the tax income so the home sec can watch **** mind i'm taking my ball and olive branch home)
cheers richie

coolangatta

So many really intellectual, insightful and world politically sure footed people on NSR
I can't for the life of me understand why you aren't all called, by HM Gov, each time we have an international crisis. Just doesn't make sense

richieh

Who says we dont-we could tell you the truth but then we might have to kill you
richie

Leslie

All your heroes say that when they have run out of ideas I'm afraid!

Les