Teachers demand 10% pay increase
14 April 2009, 09:11 AM
#32
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I think their are much more worthwhile "targets" sapping precious millions than teachers.
But if moaning about them makes some of you feel better, then so be it.
But if moaning about them makes some of you feel better, then so be it.
14 April 2009, 09:13 AM
#33
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I'm not disputing that the holiday is good. I will vehemently argue that there are VERY few teachers/lecturers who can take all the time off. There physically isn't enough time in the year to do it.
SO in essence, I/we lose it. I can only speak personally, but I probably only get to take the same amount as the average you've quoted.
Now, how happy would you be to lose your holiday entitlement through no fault of yours, without any equivalent recompense?
Dan
SO in essence, I/we lose it. I can only speak personally, but I probably only get to take the same amount as the average you've quoted.
Now, how happy would you be to lose your holiday entitlement through no fault of yours, without any equivalent recompense?
Dan
14 April 2009, 09:16 AM
#34
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But this whole thread is a PSLewis-bullsh1t wind-up (again). And as long as people know what it is and don't lose sight of this fact, then it will be quite entertaining (well done Pete
) - it's purely put up rise an arguement or debate.I certainly don't take his protesting with any degree of seriousness, but I'm more than willing to play along
Dan
14 April 2009, 09:32 AM
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A 10% increase on a £33k salary is awful when you consider the average nurse gets £26k and is getting 1.9%. 
If a teacher can argue they work in worse conditions than Nurses do then they could do with going back to school themselves...
If a teacher can argue they work in worse conditions than Nurses do then they could do with going back to school themselves...
14 April 2009, 09:50 AM
#36
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As my wife's a nurse, we've got both angles covered on this one!!
Totally agree that nurses don't get paid enough, neither do any of the emergency services.
Just to twist it around, I think that IT bods get paid far too much for what they do. Same with people in the financial sector.
Is this statement is based on fact? Have I worked in these sectors? No. But I'm pretty sure I know exactly what is entailed
However, whatever job role you're in, if you think you're entitled to a pay rise for the hard work you do, do you actually think, "I won't ask for a pay rise - I'm sure there's loads of other people out there who need it more than I do".
If you can agree with this statement, I would respectfully suggest that you sign up for some additional education
Dan
Totally agree that nurses don't get paid enough, neither do any of the emergency services.
Just to twist it around, I think that IT bods get paid far too much for what they do. Same with people in the financial sector.
Is this statement is based on fact? Have I worked in these sectors? No. But I'm pretty sure I know exactly what is entailed
However, whatever job role you're in, if you think you're entitled to a pay rise for the hard work you do, do you actually think, "I won't ask for a pay rise - I'm sure there's loads of other people out there who need it more than I do".
If you can agree with this statement, I would respectfully suggest that you sign up for some additional education
Dan
14 April 2009, 10:10 AM
#37
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Just reading back through this topic (waiting for some student song files to copy onto my computer - I'm at work 
)
by Pete.
I've also just read through the BBC news link.
You're SO right. About this statement. I'm not a fan of Unions - never have been and don't see this opinion changing. I'm not in a Union either.
I don't like this term "demanding"
Just so negative.
Dan
)
The NUT are as militant as the Miners were and need flattening IMO.
I've also just read through the BBC news link.
You're SO right.
About this statement. I'm not a fan of Unions - never have been and don't see this opinion changing. I'm not in a Union either.I don't like this term "demanding"
Just so negative.
Dan
Last edited by ScoobyDoo555; 14 April 2009 at 10:13 AM. Reason: wanted to add some text!!! :-)
14 April 2009, 10:40 AM
#39
Education is the silver bullet. Education is everything. We don't need little changes. We need gigantic, monumental changes. Schools should be palaces. The competition for the best teachers should be fierce. They should be making six figure salaries. Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge to its citizens, just like national defense. That's my position.
14 April 2009, 10:59 AM
#40
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Dan - probably right about my first wife. It was a long time ago and I'm not about to contact her to check what her current *status* is .... 
But 'nail' and 'head' .... *If* IT or finance sector people get paid more than you it's down to the private sector. Private companies pay a) what they can afford and b) what they need to to get the expertise they require. If they're in the sh)te then they don't do pay rises, pure and simple. UK plc is now in that position. *We* can't afford large pay rises for the public sector however well-deserved they may be. In fact, the public sector needs to be trimmed back mucho ... but strangely they're still recruiting loads ..... go figure!
Dave
PS: just to add, I think the public sector can be trimmed back a lot without affecting those 'at the coalface'. But that's another thread topic ....
Dave
PS: just to add, I think the public sector can be trimmed back a lot without affecting those 'at the coalface'. But that's another thread topic ....
14 April 2009, 11:18 AM
#41
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The average teacher's salary is £33,000.
Their directed hours are 26 hours per week! For the weeks they are actually at school.
It's about time Teachers took a look at the 'real' world ..... they get 2 payrises per year - an increment increase and an annual payrise!!
The NUT are as militant as the Miners were and need flattening IMO.
Their directed hours are 26 hours per week! For the weeks they are actually at school.
It's about time Teachers took a look at the 'real' world ..... they get 2 payrises per year - an increment increase and an annual payrise!!
The NUT are as militant as the Miners were and need flattening IMO.
I agree with you you about the attempted claim anyway.
Les
14 April 2009, 01:02 PM
#42
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I like Teachers ... there are some good ones ... there are also some lazy good for nothings too!
What I think would be fair is to remove the offer to pay them their 2.3% this year, as they are demanding 10% ..... let them go on strike for months on end
See them come back with their tails between their rear legs and give tham 1% 
The NUT will lose all their members and be finished. RESULT!
Don't forget to add to the £33,000 Salary their TLR Payments .... looking after the Noticeboard? Here's an extra £5000 .... Head of Media/Music, take another £8000.
Heads of Science/English/Maths are on around £50,000 a year - let's not get confused with the £33,000 average pay level - it is much, much higher than that when you add the 'extras'!
What I think would be fair is to remove the offer to pay them their 2.3% this year, as they are demanding 10% ..... let them go on strike for months on end
See them come back with their tails between their rear legs and give tham 1% The NUT will lose all their members and be finished. RESULT!Don't forget to add to the £33,000 Salary their TLR Payments .... looking after the Noticeboard? Here's an extra £5000 .... Head of Media/Music, take another £8000.
Heads of Science/English/Maths are on around £50,000 a year - let's not get confused with the £33,000 average pay level - it is much, much higher than that when you add the 'extras'!
14 April 2009, 01:18 PM
#43
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Harsh post by the OP who I suspect doesn't know any teachers! They actually work far longer hrs than 9 to 3.30pm as they have to plan lessons, mark homework etc etc. Yes they get long holidays but remember they have no flexibility to go on Hols at any other time so will get screwed on prices (go up during school holidays).
I also can't believe that the av wage is £33k ... any proof of that as I'm sure the majority get paid less.
Teachers should get paid more IMHO as without them we'd all be uneducated fools ...
TX.
I also can't believe that the av wage is £33k ... any proof of that as I'm sure the majority get paid less.
Teachers should get paid more IMHO as without them we'd all be uneducated fools ...
TX.
14 April 2009, 01:38 PM
#46
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Scotlands teaching pay structure. Looks to me like they already have a paydeal in place as there are figures for 08/09 09/10 and 10/11
Teach in Scotland: How Much Will I Get Paid?
£33400 after 6yrs as a basic teacher does not seem too bad to me considering the 13wks holiday they receive.
If you teach 22.5hrs out of 35hrs, why the need to take work home with you on evenings and at weekends? This is surely what the 12.5hrs pw is for that you are not teaching?
£33,400/39wks = £856pw
Multiply this by a normal 46wk year and it equates to an equivalant salary of £39,376....Not too shabby for teaching primary school children if you are asking me.
The holidays - A bit better than normal? 13wks vs 6 wks
Teach in Scotland: How Much Will I Get Paid?
£33400 after 6yrs as a basic teacher does not seem too bad to me considering the 13wks holiday they receive.
You'll have a 35-hour week, and the most time you’ll spend teaching is 22.5 hours. Probationer teachers, who are on the teacher induction scheme, work 0.7 of the week or 15.75 hours. This means you'll have enough time in the working day for classroom preparation, marking and Continual Professional Development
Every year you'll get 13 weeks holiday at full pay. That means your total working year is 195 days over 39 weeks, with five days for in-service training.
Every year you'll get 13 weeks holiday at full pay. That means your total working year is 195 days over 39 weeks, with five days for in-service training.
£33,400/39wks = £856pw
Multiply this by a normal 46wk year and it equates to an equivalant salary of £39,376....Not too shabby for teaching primary school children if you are asking me.
The holidays - A bit better than normal? 13wks vs 6 wks
14 April 2009, 01:48 PM
#47
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Scoobydoo - sounds to me like you deserve a pay rise as being one of the teachers who cares and is actively doing a good job.
This is the nub of the issue for me - teaching is a profession where no-one ever gets fired for doing a bad job and, therefore, no-one gets rewarded for success. Rather than a blanket 'one size fits all' pay banding, with more senior people getting more by dint of years' attendance rather than quality of work, this is a profession crying out for the pay and rewards to be completely re-written.
It would be healthy for the bottom 10% of the profession to be moved out every year - this would drive quality and focus on making sure kids get an education (and respect for their teachers) that can't be achieved with all the old duffers who are merely ticking off time until their pension and doing the bare minimum as there is no incentive for good performance and no incentive to attract quality people who would like to teach but go elsewhere for the rewards.
I'm afraid that doesn't get away from the need to have hard measurables for that performance. For me a starting point has to be to reverse the ridiculous moderation that means all kids get A*s for writing their name on a paper.
i.e. there is no merit or case for a blanket 10% pay rise - merely working long hours is no reason at all - get another job if that's the real concern. Oh, hang on, most of them can't!
Gordo
This is the nub of the issue for me - teaching is a profession where no-one ever gets fired for doing a bad job and, therefore, no-one gets rewarded for success. Rather than a blanket 'one size fits all' pay banding, with more senior people getting more by dint of years' attendance rather than quality of work, this is a profession crying out for the pay and rewards to be completely re-written.
It would be healthy for the bottom 10% of the profession to be moved out every year - this would drive quality and focus on making sure kids get an education (and respect for their teachers) that can't be achieved with all the old duffers who are merely ticking off time until their pension and doing the bare minimum as there is no incentive for good performance and no incentive to attract quality people who would like to teach but go elsewhere for the rewards.
I'm afraid that doesn't get away from the need to have hard measurables for that performance. For me a starting point has to be to reverse the ridiculous moderation that means all kids get A*s for writing their name on a paper.
i.e. there is no merit or case for a blanket 10% pay rise - merely working long hours is no reason at all - get another job if that's the real concern. Oh, hang on, most of them can't!
Gordo
14 April 2009, 01:53 PM
#50
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I know at least 60 Teachers BTW, just to put the record straight.
The average teachers paybill for a typical Senior School/College is £46,500 - this is the TRUE figure when the 'extras' are factored in.
14 April 2009, 03:00 PM
#52
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If you take this approach then it does look quite good - which is how most of the "uneducated" get sucked into teaching
The harsh reality is simply that just because you're "only" teaching of 22.5 hours, the 12 additional hours AREN'T just doing marking. Invariably, it's an awful lot of paperwork and admin (ie an office job!) on top of the teaching.
Then there's the planning and marking on top of that - hence the need for taking work home.
However, I'm not going to waste my time trying to justify myself to a public who genuinely don't know what the job is like. I do it because I love the job. Do I want more money? Of course!!!
You'd all be the same. And anybody who says otherwise is a hypocrite.
As for a £46K pay packet - even my management aren't on that. The VP in on circa £60K, but the Line Managers are on circa £35/37K......
Now this is ALL fantastic, however, that's for Scotland (probably picked for the high wage)
Have a look HERE as this is more reflective of England's teaching.
Dan
The harsh reality is simply that just because you're "only" teaching of 22.5 hours, the 12 additional hours AREN'T just doing marking. Invariably, it's an awful lot of paperwork and admin (ie an office job!) on top of the teaching.
Then there's the planning and marking on top of that - hence the need for taking work home.
However, I'm not going to waste my time trying to justify myself to a public who genuinely don't know what the job is like.
I do it because I love the job. Do I want more money? Of course!!! You'd all be the same. And anybody who says otherwise is a hypocrite.
As for a £46K pay packet - even my management aren't on that. The VP in on circa £60K, but the Line Managers are on circa £35/37K......
Now this is ALL fantastic, however, that's for Scotland (probably picked for the high wage)
Have a look HERE as this is more reflective of England's teaching.
Dan
Scotlands teaching pay structure. Looks to me like they already have a paydeal in place as there are figures for 08/09 09/10 and 10/11
Teach in Scotland: How Much Will I Get Paid?
£33400 after 6yrs as a basic teacher does not seem too bad to me considering the 13wks holiday they receive.
If you teach 22.5hrs out of 35hrs, why the need to take work home with you on evenings and at weekends? This is surely what the 12.5hrs pw is for that you are not teaching?
£33,400/39wks = £856pw
Multiply this by a normal 46wk year and it equates to an equivalant salary of £39,376....Not too shabby for teaching primary school children if you are asking me.
The holidays - A bit better than normal? 13wks vs 6 wks
Teach in Scotland: How Much Will I Get Paid?
£33400 after 6yrs as a basic teacher does not seem too bad to me considering the 13wks holiday they receive.
If you teach 22.5hrs out of 35hrs, why the need to take work home with you on evenings and at weekends? This is surely what the 12.5hrs pw is for that you are not teaching?
£33,400/39wks = £856pw
Multiply this by a normal 46wk year and it equates to an equivalant salary of £39,376....Not too shabby for teaching primary school children if you are asking me.
The holidays - A bit better than normal? 13wks vs 6 wks
14 April 2009, 04:01 PM
#54
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THe trouble is that there is not enough of a free market to determine the salary that a teacher deserves. Lets be honest the hours a Good when the 6-8 weeks holliday is taken into account personally I am lucky if I get 2 weeks a year. I actually have no sympathy when they compain of marking etc, a good friend of mine is a teacher and he starts early and uses his free periods and lunch to make sure that he gets his marking done in school so at 5-530 he can go home with his work finished hardly a long day perhaps teachers need to learn how to manage their time better. The truth of the matter is that most Teachers would be completely unsuited to the 'real world' where you have to be good to earn money so they can happily sit in school being a rubbish teacher and still get paid far more than they deserve.
The free market dictates that the best teachers will earn more working in private schools, those in state schools would generally be the worse teachers who deserve a pay cut more than they deserve an increase. If they insist on payrises and striking then there is no option but to privatise the school system and le the market reward the good teachers and discard the worst.
The free market dictates that the best teachers will earn more working in private schools, those in state schools would generally be the worse teachers who deserve a pay cut more than they deserve an increase. If they insist on payrises and striking then there is no option but to privatise the school system and le the market reward the good teachers and discard the worst.
14 April 2009, 04:10 PM
#55
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THe trouble is that there is not enough of a free market to determine the salary that a teacher deserves. Lets be honest the hours a Good when the 6-8 weeks holliday is taken into account personally I am lucky if I get 2 weeks a year. I actually have no sympathy when they compain of marking etc, a good friend of mine is a teacher and he starts early and uses his free periods and lunch to make sure that he gets his marking done in school so at 5-530 he can go home with his work finished hardly a long day perhaps teachers need to learn how to manage their time better. The truth of the matter is that most Teachers would be completely unsuited to the 'real world' where you have to be good to earn money so they can happily sit in school being a rubbish teacher and still get paid far more than they deserve.
The free market dictates that the best teachers will earn more working in private schools, those in state schools would generally be the worse teachers who deserve a pay cut more than they deserve an increase. If they insist on payrises and striking then there is no option but to privatise the school system and le the market reward the good teachers and discard the worst.
The free market dictates that the best teachers will earn more working in private schools, those in state schools would generally be the worse teachers who deserve a pay cut more than they deserve an increase. If they insist on payrises and striking then there is no option but to privatise the school system and le the market reward the good teachers and discard the worst.
To me on the outside looking in, it looks like teachers are in work for 39wks of the year with 13 wks off. During the 39wks, the working week is 35hrs of which a maximum of 22.5hrs is spent with the teaching cap on.
Any marking or preperation should surely be done in the 12.5hrs they are not teaching but are still being paid? Surely marking and lesson plans dont equate to more than 12.5hrs a week?
There is a final pension salary, very good time off and over average pay so i cannot see the base around their argument. Pay is just as good if not better than the armed forces/NHS/police forces/Fire brigades etc.
They are announcing this at the worst possible time, and it will just cause public outrage.
Last edited by Mitchy260; 14 April 2009 at 04:17 PM.
14 April 2009, 04:17 PM
#56
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Not actually bothered to read all of the posts but honestly I'd ask all people slagging off the possible pay rise to take a long hard look at the state of education in this country. I work in a fairly typical coastal strip school (1800 pupils 11-18), with high unemployment and low aspirations. On a daily basis I am verbally abused by pupils, staff are regularly 'assaulted' (e.g. pushed aside) two staff members have had to attend A & E in the last 12 months.
There are no effective sanctions to use on the pupils and due to the county councils policies exclusion is not an option. I'm in school every school day from 8am until 5pm then do at least 2 hours work 4 days a week in the evenings, weekends usually involve at least 5 hours on either the Saturday or Sunday. Pay is reasonable when you move up through the performance ceilings, having to produce mountains of paperwork to do so.
To qualify you have to do a full degree (3 years) and PGCE (1 year) all of which involves building up massive debt. Anybody who thinks teaching is an easy ride is warmly invited to come into my school and try to teach one of my classes!
And to Luan Pra bang - State schools have the best teachers, those in the private sector are those who couldn't cut it - moved to private for an easy ride, How hard can it be to teach a class of say 10 compared to 30?
There are no effective sanctions to use on the pupils and due to the county councils policies exclusion is not an option. I'm in school every school day from 8am until 5pm then do at least 2 hours work 4 days a week in the evenings, weekends usually involve at least 5 hours on either the Saturday or Sunday. Pay is reasonable when you move up through the performance ceilings, having to produce mountains of paperwork to do so.
To qualify you have to do a full degree (3 years) and PGCE (1 year) all of which involves building up massive debt. Anybody who thinks teaching is an easy ride is warmly invited to come into my school and try to teach one of my classes!
And to Luan Pra bang - State schools have the best teachers, those in the private sector are those who couldn't cut it - moved to private for an easy ride, How hard can it be to teach a class of say 10 compared to 30?
14 April 2009, 04:30 PM
#57
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Again, the topic/subject being taught also has ALOT to do with how much extra work there is.
As for the comment, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" well, there's another phrase that springs to mind, "You can't educate pork"
FWIW, I'm very good at both my teaching job and I also run a successful production company outside of work (in the few hours left ). I would be a cr@p teacher if I didn't have my outside work, as my subject area is one of the quickest moving areas in business. The technology is usually out of date by the time you've opened the box.
I would also put it to you to try teaching - if it was that easy, why is it so difficult to find educators?
Dan
As for the comment, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" well, there's another phrase that springs to mind, "You can't educate pork"
FWIW, I'm very good at both my teaching job and I also run a successful production company outside of work (in the few hours left
). I would be a cr@p teacher if I didn't have my outside work, as my subject area is one of the quickest moving areas in business. The technology is usually out of date by the time you've opened the box.I would also put it to you to try teaching - if it was that easy, why is it so difficult to find educators?
Dan
14 April 2009, 04:31 PM
#58
Not actually bothered to read all of the posts but honestly I'd ask all people slagging off the possible pay rise to take a long hard look at the state of education in this country. I work in a fairly typical coastal strip school (1800 pupils 11-18), with high unemployment and low aspirations. On a daily basis I am verbally abused by pupils, staff are regularly 'assaulted' (e.g. pushed aside) two staff members have had to attend A & E in the last 12 months.
There are no effective sanctions to use on the pupils and due to the county councils policies exclusion is not an option. I'm in school every school day from 8am until 5pm then do at least 2 hours work 4 days a week in the evenings, weekends usually involve at least 5 hours on either the Saturday or Sunday. Pay is reasonable when you move up through the performance ceilings, having to produce mountains of paperwork to do so.
To qualify you have to do a full degree (3 years) and PGCE (1 year) all of which involves building up massive debt. Anybody who thinks teaching is an easy ride is warmly invited to come into my school and try to teach one of my classes!
And to Luan Pra bang - State schools have the best teachers, those in the private sector are those who couldn't cut it - moved to private for an easy ride, How hard can it be to teach a class of say 10 compared to 30?
There are no effective sanctions to use on the pupils and due to the county councils policies exclusion is not an option. I'm in school every school day from 8am until 5pm then do at least 2 hours work 4 days a week in the evenings, weekends usually involve at least 5 hours on either the Saturday or Sunday. Pay is reasonable when you move up through the performance ceilings, having to produce mountains of paperwork to do so.
To qualify you have to do a full degree (3 years) and PGCE (1 year) all of which involves building up massive debt. Anybody who thinks teaching is an easy ride is warmly invited to come into my school and try to teach one of my classes!
And to Luan Pra bang - State schools have the best teachers, those in the private sector are those who couldn't cut it - moved to private for an easy ride, How hard can it be to teach a class of say 10 compared to 30?
14 April 2009, 04:31 PM
#59
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The average teacher's salary is £33,000.
Their directed hours are 26 hours per week! For the weeks they are actually at school.
It's about time Teachers took a look at the 'real' world ..... they get 2 payrises per year - an increment increase and an annual payrise!!
The NUT are as militant as the Miners were and need flattening IMO.
Their directed hours are 26 hours per week! For the weeks they are actually at school.
It's about time Teachers took a look at the 'real' world ..... they get 2 payrises per year - an increment increase and an annual payrise!!
The NUT are as militant as the Miners were and need flattening IMO.
1 - directed time is 1265 hrs per year not including planning, preparation and marking.
2 - teachers are required in school 195 days of the year in which this 1265 hrs work takes place.
3 - one payrise a year (currently 2.5%) plus an incremental increase as you move up the payscale this is not automatic. From 1 - 6 it's fairly straight forwards however from 6 to UPS 1 is a hell of a trial with forms and evidence of required. You can then move to UPS2 then 3(the top pay) after 2 years following a further assessment. That is it unless you move to senior leadership.
Current teachers pay (not london)
M1 20,629
M2 22,259
M3 24,048
M4 25,898
M5 27,939
M6 30,148
U1 32,660 2 years (have to apply)
U2 33,870 2 years (have to apply)
U3 35,121 2 years (have to apply)
14 April 2009, 04:58 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
Well said that man
I'd all but given up
Dan
Please check facts:
1 - directed time is 1265 hrs per year not including planning, preparation and marking.
2 - teachers are required in school 195 days of the year in which this 1265 hrs work takes place.
3 - one payrise a year (currently 2.5%) plus an incremental increase as you move up the payscale this is not automatic. From 1 - 6 it's fairly straight forwards however from 6 to UPS 1 is a hell of a trial with forms and evidence of required. You can then move to UPS2 then 3(the top pay) after 2 years following a further assessment. That is it unless you move to senior leadership.
Current teachers pay (not london)
M1 20,629
M2 22,259
M3 24,048
M4 25,898
M5 27,939
M6 30,148
U1 32,660 2 years (have to apply)
U2 33,870 2 years (have to apply)
U3 35,121 2 years (have to apply)
1 - directed time is 1265 hrs per year not including planning, preparation and marking.
2 - teachers are required in school 195 days of the year in which this 1265 hrs work takes place.
3 - one payrise a year (currently 2.5%) plus an incremental increase as you move up the payscale this is not automatic. From 1 - 6 it's fairly straight forwards however from 6 to UPS 1 is a hell of a trial with forms and evidence of required. You can then move to UPS2 then 3(the top pay) after 2 years following a further assessment. That is it unless you move to senior leadership.
Current teachers pay (not london)
M1 20,629
M2 22,259
M3 24,048
M4 25,898
M5 27,939
M6 30,148
U1 32,660 2 years (have to apply)
U2 33,870 2 years (have to apply)
U3 35,121 2 years (have to apply)