Teachers demand 10% pay increase
14 April 2009, 06:54 PM
#61
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SO teachers only have to turn up 195 days a year ? I have to turn up 300 days a year and yet I don't feel the need to compain and go on about how hard it is. You are complaining about assults by children I have been attacked threatend, had people try to smash glasses in my face and a whole host of other attempted assaults in my work and yet never felt it as anything other than an occupational hazzard yet if a pupil attacks a teacher then its like the world has ended. The trouble with teachers is that they have no experience about the tougher side of life so moan non-stop about every little trial and tribulation they have at work. As for your comment about state school teachers being better than private school then I think you need your head read, some of the teachers at my state school were not even capable of doing a level work let alone teaching it.
Its very simple don't like the job or pay get another one and see who else will pay these whinging teachers 33k to work for half the year.
Its very simple don't like the job or pay get another one and see who else will pay these whinging teachers 33k to work for half the year.
14 April 2009, 07:34 PM
#62
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Please check facts:
1 - directed time is 1265 hrs per year not including planning, preparation and marking.
2 - teachers are required in school 195 days of the year in which this 1265 hrs work takes place.
3 - one payrise a year (currently 2.5%) plus an incremental increase as you move up the payscale this is not automatic. From 1 - 6 it's fairly straight forwards however from 6 to UPS 1 is a hell of a trial with forms and evidence of required. You can then move to UPS2 then 3(the top pay) after 2 years following a further assessment. That is it unless you move to senior leadership.
Current teachers pay (not london)
M1 20,629
M2 22,259
M3 24,048
M4 25,898
M5 27,939
M6 30,148
U1 32,660 2 years (have to apply)
U2 33,870 2 years (have to apply)
U3 35,121 2 years (have to apply)
1 - directed time is 1265 hrs per year not including planning, preparation and marking.
2 - teachers are required in school 195 days of the year in which this 1265 hrs work takes place.
3 - one payrise a year (currently 2.5%) plus an incremental increase as you move up the payscale this is not automatic. From 1 - 6 it's fairly straight forwards however from 6 to UPS 1 is a hell of a trial with forms and evidence of required. You can then move to UPS2 then 3(the top pay) after 2 years following a further assessment. That is it unless you move to senior leadership.
Current teachers pay (not london)
M1 20,629
M2 22,259
M3 24,048
M4 25,898
M5 27,939
M6 30,148
U1 32,660 2 years (have to apply)
U2 33,870 2 years (have to apply)
U3 35,121 2 years (have to apply)
U1-U3 is a tick in the box, simple. The hardest part is getting the Teachers to actually apply for it!
AGAIN, we conveniently forget the TLR payments, don't we?
TLR payments range from around £2,500 to around £12,000 ... this is in ADDITION to the above rates of pay!!
So, Head of Maths would get U3 = £35,121 + TLR of £12,000 = £47,121 a year!!
AND, get this - if you were doing an 'extra' like looking after the School Noticeboard .. you get a TLR of £2,500 ........ then, if you stop doing that and another Teacher starts doing it that Teacher gets the £2,500 (fair enough I hear you say) BUT, the Teacher who 'used' to look after the NoticeBoard STILL GETS THE £2,500 for THREE YEARS!!!
It's a gravy train and Teachers have their noses well and truly stuck in the Trough .... they should tell the NUT to STFU or this kind of stuff will just come out and make them look as bad as Fred Goodwin!!
Teacher also looking aftetr the Bike Shed? Heres £2,500 extra for the responsibility
Teachers need to step outside into the REAL world ...
14 April 2009, 07:43 PM
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Been there done that - TLR payments are not easy to come by and you would never get one for the kind of duties you describe - UPS progression a tickbox? Strange my file was 50 pages thick and I still needed to provide additional evidence to the head.
As for the points on state vs private - yes there are weak teachers in state schools but the actual quality of teaching in private schools is generally much lower as they ahve to be less creative and can chalk and talk (or diadatic) teach as the pupils will simply do as told.
As for assaults in the workplace can I ask what happened to those individuals? As in the school you would simply have to teach them again two days later!
Most teachers do the job because they love it, myself included. I invite you SunnySide to spend a week shadowing me in my school - or you could just shadow the Police officer we ave in school all day every day?
Also can I ask what pay rises you've had over the last few years compared to teachers (and the rest of the public sector for that matter)?
As for the points on state vs private - yes there are weak teachers in state schools but the actual quality of teaching in private schools is generally much lower as they ahve to be less creative and can chalk and talk (or diadatic) teach as the pupils will simply do as told.
As for assaults in the workplace can I ask what happened to those individuals? As in the school you would simply have to teach them again two days later!
Most teachers do the job because they love it, myself included. I invite you SunnySide to spend a week shadowing me in my school - or you could just shadow the Police officer we ave in school all day every day?
Also can I ask what pay rises you've had over the last few years compared to teachers (and the rest of the public sector for that matter)?
Last edited by BlueBugEye; 14 April 2009 at 07:44 PM.
14 April 2009, 07:57 PM
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I don't begrudge the public sector a decent wage. However, the "we get ****e pay rises" statement doesn;t wash anymore, it simply is not the case - 2 years ago the average was 4.8% vs 4.1% in favour of the public sector.
The timing of the demand for the NUT is bordering on idiotic. They will get almost zero support from a general public workforce that are having pay cuts in the form of short time working; 4 day weeks etc.
I can only assume they are angling for around a 4% agreement, rather than expecting the full 10%, in my view, they should accept the 2.3% and be happy for it; it's 2.3% more than than most will be getting.
As for attracting new decent teachers, I would say that in the current climate a job for life and a guaranteed pension is pretty good incentive.
Last edited by PeteBrant; 14 April 2009 at 07:58 PM.
14 April 2009, 08:09 PM
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Been there, done that, got the Tee Shirt .... don't get me wrong, I have no wish to become a Teacher - I would clump some of the kids around the ear!! But, it's a job .. with the conditions as is. I wouldn't like to pick up pieces of body from a road or be a Trawlerman ..... that doesn't mean that the people who do are somehow worth £££££££££££££££'s more than someone else, lets say a Learning Support Assistant on £8,500 a year!! Yes, that's the person who takes the bad kids off your hands!!!!
Like I said, walk a mile in someone elses shoes you Teachers, those who walk in the REAL world ........................... it's GREED and the NUT needs to be faced up to and destroyed IMO.
14 April 2009, 08:29 PM
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The only way to improve teaching standards is to performance manage teachers - paying them more won't change the quality (or lack of) the teaching pool that's already there. It must be very demoralising to know that even if you work your *** off you only get paid the same as a hopeless **** in another school on the same grade.
14 April 2009, 08:39 PM
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Teachers are performance managed and can be held back on the pay spine, unfortunately too few heads have the ***** to do it. As for the comments abut TAs etc. You should see some of them, yes a few are brilliant highly skilled and massively underpaid! but many are really totally useless and the lessons are better without them there. I've done my time in industry not taking work home etc. I agree in the current climate that the demands appear excessive but this has to be taken against the back drop of below inflation pay increases imposed on teachers (and other public sectors) for many years. If I was in the private sector with my levels of qualifications and responsibility I would be on around 7 to 8 k more than I am now.
I'd love to know where you get your information on TLRS from MAs are no longer protected (finished in 08) and TLRS are hard to come by! I get TLR 2a (2.5K) for managing a whole keystage, producing the transition and baseline assessments at KS2 to 3 and 3 to 4 as well s teaching 4 exam groups a year.
I'd love to know where you get your information on TLRS from MAs are no longer protected (finished in 08) and TLRS are hard to come by! I get TLR 2a (2.5K) for managing a whole keystage, producing the transition and baseline assessments at KS2 to 3 and 3 to 4 as well s teaching 4 exam groups a year.
14 April 2009, 09:01 PM
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Sorry but anyone asking for a pay rise in this climate is either very selfish or stupid. If the latter they should not be teaching.
I persoannly think teacher should be on performance related pay for any bonuses.
My cousin is a head teacher and says its not that hard a job to be fair
AllanB
I persoannly think teacher should be on performance related pay for any bonuses.
My cousin is a head teacher and says its not that hard a job to be fair
AllanB
14 April 2009, 09:01 PM
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I'd love to know where you get your information on TLRS from MAs are no longer protected (finished in 08) and TLRS are hard to come by! I get TLR 2a (2.5K) for managing a whole keystage, producing the transition and baseline assessments at KS2 to 3 and 3 to 4 as well s teaching 4 exam groups a year.
That's THREE YEARS of payments for Teachers doing NOTHING extra!! A DISGRACE! and something which needs stopping! When a Teacher stops doing the 'extra' they should stop getting paid for it - not get paid for THREE YEARS afterwards!! 
GREED, GREED, GREED!!TLR's are dished out like sweeties .... and the Taxpayer is picking up the tab and it should STOP!
To demand 10% shows the NUT and some Teachers in a very poor light - I know what goes on with Teachers pay and it's not what they like to claim!
14 April 2009, 09:09 PM
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So Sunny what is your experience of teaching?
Because in my school and across the county teachers are regularly held back (5 last year in Our school alone) Also we have had 4 redundancies.
Because in my school and across the county teachers are regularly held back (5 last year in Our school alone) Also we have had 4 redundancies.
14 April 2009, 09:21 PM
#73
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With all due respect, you DON'T know what goes on with Teachers' pay - you have access to a small amount of localised knowledge based around your involvement with your school.
Which gives you just as much opinion as anybody else, but certainly no more.
The interesting issue is that of the figure of 10%. The NUT are dreaming if they think they'll get anywhere with this. The best they can hope for is probably 5% ish. (Hopefully)
I'd be interested to know if the public would be up in arms about all other vocations wanting pay rises at the moment (or at any other time) - after we're all entitled to push for a better life. What about if it was for say 5%?
I'm guessing the outrage (from Pete
) is the figure of 10%.However, this IS my last post on this thread - whether or not you agree with the statements by educators on this BBS, well, that's your choice
I certainly won't be offended!!LOL!! 
Dan - off to have a life!!
14 April 2009, 09:41 PM
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Dan, thanks for the good discussion .... I'll let you get on with your life - you have argued your case extremely well.
I feel as though I have 'more' understanding than most non-Teachers on the subject we have been discussing as I have been party to the payment of TLR's and of UPS movements ..... in addition to Interviewing for Senior positions in schools, Heads even!
Thanks again for the good natured discussion
I feel as though I have 'more' understanding than most non-Teachers on the subject we have been discussing as I have been party to the payment of TLR's and of UPS movements ..... in addition to Interviewing for Senior positions in schools, Heads even!
Thanks again for the good natured discussion
14 April 2009, 09:48 PM
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Been interesting I actually thought the union had stopped their pay demands following the recession - we were supposed to be striking earlier this academic year (October) this was put on hold.
It's the historical low rate of pay increase that's the problem not the current pay rise, this request is to put teachers back on a par with other professions. The NUT wanted 4.5% last time but 2.45 was agreed for 3 years. This was when inflation was running at 4.6 (or over 5% on the RPI).
And yes I am a NUT in fact a school/federation rep!
It's the historical low rate of pay increase that's the problem not the current pay rise, this request is to put teachers back on a par with other professions. The NUT wanted 4.5% last time but 2.45 was agreed for 3 years. This was when inflation was running at 4.6 (or over 5% on the RPI).
And yes I am a NUT in fact a school/federation rep!
14 April 2009, 11:19 PM
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Really ? What exactly do you base that on ? I cannot think of many jobs with a full time salary and let you have half the year off ?
15 April 2009, 08:59 AM
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...
It's the historical low rate of pay increase that's the problem not the current pay rise, this request is to put teachers back on a par with other professions. The NUT wanted 4.5% last time but 2.45 was agreed for 3 years. This was when inflation was running at 4.6 (or over 5% on the RPI).
And yes I am a NUT in fact a school/federation rep! ...
It's the historical low rate of pay increase that's the problem not the current pay rise, this request is to put teachers back on a par with other professions. The NUT wanted 4.5% last time but 2.45 was agreed for 3 years. This was when inflation was running at 4.6 (or over 5% on the RPI).
And yes I am a NUT in fact a school/federation rep! ...
Dave
15 April 2009, 11:16 AM
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Out of interest, what do you do? An average worker with a Monday-Friday job, 28 days holiday and the bank holidays off too would only be in work for what, 225 days a year? You must work 6 days a week, with bank holidays off and five days holiday! I assume they aren't full shifts?
15 April 2009, 11:34 AM
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Out of interest, what do you do? An average worker with a Monday-Friday job, 28 days holiday and the bank holidays off too would only be in work for what, 225 days a year? You must work 6 days a week, with bank holidays off and five days holiday! I assume they aren't full shifts? 104 days in weekends
260 days left.
The average worker does not get 28+8 days public holiday, most people i know get 20+8.
Average worker should spend 232 days at work each year, which works out 19% more than a teachers 195 days.
Last edited by Mitchy260; 15 April 2009 at 11:36 AM.
15 April 2009, 11:56 AM
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I'm not denying that on paper we look to get a lot of time off, I just wondered what LPB did that demands to be at work for 300 days of the year. Just me being nosey I suppose.
If everyone is jealous of our holidays, then you only have yourselves to blame for not going in to teaching yourselves. I'm quite jealous that a lot of you can choose your days off, have cheap holidays and know that when the shift finishes, the shift finishes. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.
15 April 2009, 12:03 PM
#82
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Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who Has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, Since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He Will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
Why the early bird gets the Worm;
Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend More than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, Are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but Overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy Charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate;
teens suspended From school for using mouthwash after lunch;
and a teacher fired for Reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the Job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly Children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental Consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could Not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an Abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses;
And criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a Burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to Realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in Her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by His wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son,Reason.
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights
I Want It Now
Someone Else Is To Blame
I'm A Victim
Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
Why the early bird gets the Worm;
Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend More than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, Are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but Overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy Charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate;
teens suspended From school for using mouthwash after lunch;
and a teacher fired for Reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the Job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly Children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental Consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could Not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an Abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses;
And criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a Burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to Realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in Her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by His wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son,Reason.
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights
I Want It Now
Someone Else Is To Blame
I'm A Victim
Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
A copper talking about common sense, ive not met one copper with an ounce of common sense, you all have double standards!
15 April 2009, 04:12 PM
#83
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TEACHERS CAN GET 10% PAY RISE WHEN CHILDREN ARE 10% LESS STUPID AND AWFUL, SAYS EVERYONE - The Daily Mash
Dave
15 April 2009, 06:12 PM
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Out of interest, what do you do? An average worker with a Monday-Friday job, 28 days holiday and the bank holidays off too would only be in work for what, 225 days a year? You must work 6 days a week, with bank holidays off and five days holiday! I assume they aren't full shifts? I work both bank hollidays and new years eve most christmas days althugh I have had the last 2 christmas days off. I fail to understand why teachers seem convinced that they have it so tough when they get so much time off and pay that often exceeds their abilities.
I used to work 55-60 hours every week but I now try to cut it down to 40 where possible.
15 April 2009, 06:26 PM
#85
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It's great running your own business.
Suddenly you don't give two hoots about what others do and are paid - you just get on with it and hope it pays enough to live comfortably.
I think teachers have a tough job - they have to try and mould unruly yobs into useful citizens without being able to raise their voices or lift a fingers because they will get sued and lose their job.
As for holidays - us British put too much importance on them. If all you live for is holiday time then something isn't right.
We have a very rare week off in May and the odd day off here and there but it's not the be all and end all - flexible work means we can nip out on the odd sunny/good surf day and who needs to fly hundreds of miles when Cornwall is hard to beat?
We have a very odd work ethic in the UK - work silly hours then place HUGE importance on holiday time. The pressure to have a great time is so massive in that holiday time that any slight hitch results in the average UK wage slave having a near heart attack.
Chill, get on with your own lives and only protest at stupid bankers on silly state funded money.
Suddenly you don't give two hoots about what others do and are paid - you just get on with it and hope it pays enough to live comfortably.
I think teachers have a tough job - they have to try and mould unruly yobs into useful citizens without being able to raise their voices or lift a fingers because they will get sued and lose their job.
As for holidays - us British put too much importance on them. If all you live for is holiday time then something isn't right.
We have a very rare week off in May and the odd day off here and there but it's not the be all and end all - flexible work means we can nip out on the odd sunny/good surf day and who needs to fly hundreds of miles when Cornwall is hard to beat?
We have a very odd work ethic in the UK - work silly hours then place HUGE importance on holiday time. The pressure to have a great time is so massive in that holiday time that any slight hitch results in the average UK wage slave having a near heart attack.
Chill, get on with your own lives and only protest at stupid bankers on silly state funded money.
15 April 2009, 07:11 PM
#86
my brother is currently training in nottingham and by what he tells me i think they deserve it ,think he gets about 18k at the minute while he is training .
think if i was going to be a teacher i would teach primary school as the older ones think there as tough as al capone or think there of "boyz in da hood"
think if i was going to be a teacher i would teach primary school as the older ones think there as tough as al capone or think there of "boyz in da hood"
Soldiers get £16k
15 April 2009, 11:28 PM
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No one should put up with being assaulted at work (physical or verbal). At my workplace you'd be sacked for either, quite rightly.TX.
You are complaining about assults by children I have been attacked threatend, had people try to smash glasses in my face and a whole host of other attempted assaults in my work and yet never felt it as anything other than an occupational hazzard yet if a pupil attacks a teacher then its like the world has ended. The trouble with teachers is that they have no experience about the tougher side of life so moan non-stop about every little trial and tribulation they have at work.
16 April 2009, 11:36 AM
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I must say that I don't envy the schoolteachers these days when they have to cope with recalcitrant and incorrigible children who know their "rights" and take advantage of the situation, doing their best to undermine the whole class. The worse bit for the teachers is that they are so restricted in what they can do and have no effective way to discipline the young thugs who just do what they want and often are guilty of serious assault. The children are always supported by their parents regardless. In my day I would have had discipline at school and later all over again from my dad to contend with! Quite rightly too. My father of course would have been up in court had his punishment of me been notified to the authorities! What a way to run the country!
I have quite a bit of teaching experience personally having had to give lectures to RAF and foreign students about all aspects of their job. This was a fairly complicated series of subjects but the difference was that I had a disciplined class which wanted to learn and therefore I did not have the frustration that so many schoolteachers must experience.
I agree however that the requested payrise is far too high, especially ion the country's present parlous financial state.
Les
I have quite a bit of teaching experience personally having had to give lectures to RAF and foreign students about all aspects of their job. This was a fairly complicated series of subjects but the difference was that I had a disciplined class which wanted to learn and therefore I did not have the frustration that so many schoolteachers must experience.
I agree however that the requested payrise is far too high, especially ion the country's present parlous financial state.
Les
16 April 2009, 11:45 AM
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TEACHER TRAINING DAY MONDAY - just to add to the fun and games on this thread
And a teacher training day on Monday. I understand that the two weeks of Easter hols is vital for preparation for the Primary School teachers and fully appreciate how yet another day of training could not be fitted in during term time I also understand that teaching is not like the real world where i train during work hours, someone covers my role and several other employees roles are also covered so not to interrupt the work - there is no way something that wild and left-field could or would ever work in schools
So, more childcare costs (yes i do understand that it is my child) or i take another unpaid day or holiday. I am saving my holiday entitlement for the 6 weeks summer hols so i do not end up paying 200.00 per week for all 6 weeks of the holiday for childcare. I would love to have the time off but i work for a private sector employer who would just laugh at the suggestion of having that much holiday
Sometimes you have wonder if you would be better off not working...getting benefits for this, that and the other...
I also understand that teaching is not like the real world where i train during work hours, someone covers my role and several other employees roles are also covered so not to interrupt the work - there is no way something that wild and left-field could or would ever work in schoolsSo, more childcare costs (yes i do understand that it is my child) or i take another unpaid day or holiday. I am saving my holiday entitlement for the 6 weeks summer hols so i do not end up paying 200.00 per week for all 6 weeks of the holiday for childcare. I would love to have the time off but i work for a private sector employer who would just laugh at the suggestion of having that much holiday
Sometimes you have wonder if you would be better off not working...getting benefits for this, that and the other...