Teachers demand 10% pay increase
16 April 2009, 12:15 PM
#91
Guest
Posts: n/a
And a teacher training day on Monday. I understand that the two weeks of Easter hols is vital for preparation for the Primary School teachers and fully appreciate how yet another day of training could not be fitted in during term time
I also understand that teaching is not like the real world where i train during work hours, someone covers my role and several other employees roles are also covered so not to interrupt the work - there is no way something that wild and left-field could or would ever work in schools
So, more childcare costs (yes i do understand that it is my child) or i take another unpaid day or holiday. I am saving my holiday entitlement for the 6 weeks summer hols so i do not end up paying 200.00 per week for all 6 weeks of the holiday for childcare. I would love to have the time off but i work for a private sector employer who would just laugh at the suggestion of having that much holiday
Sometimes you have wonder if you would be better off not working...getting benefits for this, that and the other...
I also understand that teaching is not like the real world where i train during work hours, someone covers my role and several other employees roles are also covered so not to interrupt the work - there is no way something that wild and left-field could or would ever work in schoolsSo, more childcare costs (yes i do understand that it is my child) or i take another unpaid day or holiday. I am saving my holiday entitlement for the 6 weeks summer hols so i do not end up paying 200.00 per week for all 6 weeks of the holiday for childcare. I would love to have the time off but i work for a private sector employer who would just laugh at the suggestion of having that much holiday
Sometimes you have wonder if you would be better off not working...getting benefits for this, that and the other...
Dave
16 April 2009, 12:59 PM
#92
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't it funny how INSET Days are tagged on the end of or just before School Holidays!
Under the Freedom of Information Act, wouldn't it be interesting to ask your School how many Teaching Staff turn up on these days, and for how long? You may be shocked (or may not be, depending upon whether you think Teachers are worth a huge payrise!)
Under the Freedom of Information Act, wouldn't it be interesting to ask your School how many Teaching Staff turn up on these days, and for how long? You may be shocked (or may not be, depending upon whether you think Teachers are worth a huge payrise!)
16 April 2009, 01:44 PM
#93
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mars
Posts: 11,470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
16 April 2009, 01:45 PM
#94
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Littlehampton
Posts: 2,427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunny So ask! We have the same level of turn out for INSET as we would on any other day of the week barring the Cover staff and Support staff who are not contracted to work on these days - they are part of directed time these days.
For those who complain there is a simple solution do your PGCE or BA QTS if you don't already have a degree and come enjoy the easy life we so obviously have! There's plenty of vacancies what with all the staff leaving the profession due to the working conditions.
For those who complain there is a simple solution do your PGCE or BA QTS if you don't already have a degree and come enjoy the easy life we so obviously have! There's plenty of vacancies what with all the staff leaving the profession due to the working conditions.
16 April 2009, 01:56 PM
#95
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm surprised you have time to post actually ... what with all that marking and planning lessons that you have had to do during the last 2 weeks you have had off with your feet up!!
16 April 2009, 02:08 PM
#96
Scooby Regular
Funny how Pete's always whingeing about certain professions getting paid for what he sees as not very much work (Fire Service and now Teachers) and yet he seems to be happy to be paid (assuming he's not one of the work shy scroungers he so often berates) whilst spending (seemingly) all day posting ****e on scoobynet
17 April 2009, 05:59 PM
#98
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn't you mark the projects in your 10% downtime you get?
What with all these Admin staff to do your paperwork and support staff to take the bad kids off your hands there cannot be much to do anymore?
What with all these Admin staff to do your paperwork and support staff to take the bad kids off your hands there cannot be much to do anymore?
Last edited by SunnySideUp; 17 April 2009 at 06:50 PM.
18 April 2009, 10:24 AM
#99
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Littlehampton
Posts: 2,427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like I said - you seem to have such a problem with the 'perks' we get why don't you get a degree, get a PGCE and come enjoy the high life we lead!
Also it take a minimum of 30 minutes per project to mark - that's 3000 minutes or 50hrs. My 10% PPA time equals 2.6 hrs a week so it would therefore take me 20 weeks to mark all the projects. When would I do my year 10, 9 & 8 marking and all my preparation then? Would you be happy if it took a teacher 20 weeks to give you feedback on your project, not the mention the fact I'd miss the exam board deadline and therefore you'd fail?
I'm not sure what school you are involved with but our support staff do not take the 'bad kids' off our hands - yes we have alternative provision for a small group of pupils who will not engage with the mainstream curriculum (20 from 250 in years 10 and 11 none lower down the school) these pupils are not however removed from all subjects.
Maybe you could tell me which school you are involved with so I can come teach there?
Also it take a minimum of 30 minutes per project to mark - that's 3000 minutes or 50hrs. My 10% PPA time equals 2.6 hrs a week so it would therefore take me 20 weeks to mark all the projects. When would I do my year 10, 9 & 8 marking and all my preparation then? Would you be happy if it took a teacher 20 weeks to give you feedback on your project, not the mention the fact I'd miss the exam board deadline and therefore you'd fail?
I'm not sure what school you are involved with but our support staff do not take the 'bad kids' off our hands - yes we have alternative provision for a small group of pupils who will not engage with the mainstream curriculum (20 from 250 in years 10 and 11 none lower down the school) these pupils are not however removed from all subjects.
Maybe you could tell me which school you are involved with so I can come teach there?
18 April 2009, 11:55 AM
#100
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To demand a 10% PayRise is certainly going to bring the spotlight on to what the Terms and Conditions actually are for Teachers - luckily I am in a position where I know the Terms and Conditions ...... and they are FANTASTIC Terms and Conditions - better than they have been for many decades.
And it is pointless telling me to become a Teacher if I think it is so good ... I have my own career with its own perks and downsides ... but you won't hear me blubbing and asking for a 10% Payrise!
18 April 2009, 12:00 PM
#101
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But, we have natural wasteage and our Teaching Staff are 'getting on' - we may have a place for you ... I will certainly put your name forward if you want to pm me your CV.
18 April 2009, 01:48 PM
#103
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
18 April 2009, 04:11 PM
#106
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northants and Stafford
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I used to think teaching would be a lot less work that it actually is, with my PGCE year coming to end I have done what is essentially the final year of a degree while working harder than I've ever had to before.
Thankfully I wont get coursework to mark since I teach maths but my god is it hard work. I'll be walking into the basic salary of around 20K with the 5K bonus at the end of the year but after that I will have to work up to the average of around 30K which is nice enough (well at my age) but I can appriciate why teachers would like more. As a basic functioning classroom teacher you have enough stress, but there a lot of middling roles on to the way to ,.. middle management. Each have their own extra stress, workload and paperwork.
I do think the financial rewards for the basic classroom teacher are imo, just about right at the moment, (but obviously im not so cinical yet) in fact I would take a pay cut in order to work a 4 day week. I did that as I was beginning to teach and it's so beneficial to you as a teacher. Time not only to relax but to remember why the hell you are doing the job you do
Thankfully I wont get coursework to mark since I teach maths but my god is it hard work. I'll be walking into the basic salary of around 20K with the 5K bonus at the end of the year
but after that I will have to work up to the average of around 30K which is nice enough (well at my age) but I can appriciate why teachers would like more. As a basic functioning classroom teacher you have enough stress, but there a lot of middling roles on to the way to ,.. middle management. Each have their own extra stress, workload and paperwork.I do think the financial rewards for the basic classroom teacher are imo, just about right at the moment, (but obviously im not so cinical yet) in fact I would take a pay cut in order to work a 4 day week. I did that as I was beginning to teach and it's so beneficial to you as a teacher. Time not only to relax but to remember why the hell you are doing the job you do
Last edited by staffs Mike; 18 April 2009 at 04:12 PM.
18 April 2009, 05:56 PM
#107
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see you are based in Littlehampton ... I am not aware of any school thereabouts which could be classed as inner-city? Where is your school?
18 April 2009, 07:35 PM
#108
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Talk to the hand....
Posts: 13,331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funny how Pete's always whingeing about certain professions getting paid for what he sees as not very much work (Fire Service and now Teachers) and yet he seems to be happy to be paid (assuming he's not one of the work shy scroungers he so often berates) whilst spending (seemingly) all day posting ****e on scoobynet
Very true - clearly politics born of envy.
18 April 2009, 08:16 PM
#109
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: l'on n'y peut rien
Posts: 2,922
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Pete H and anyone else going on about so-called "training days", (known to older teachers as "Baker days," after the odious creep who came up with the idea), they are laid down in law.
Before 1988, and Baker, schools were "open to pupils" for 190 days per year. The 1988 education act required them to be open to staff, but NOT to pupils for an extra 5 days a year, the so-called "training days".
So............two points:
1. Parents are NOT require to find ANY MORE childcare then they ever have been, and,
2. The reason that these days are "tagged onto school holidays" is that they are, in law, required to be so: at least one fay at the start of each term.
It was done as a piece of nastiness by the Thatcher government in 1988 when teachers refused to give up a day of their holidays at the start of the Autumn term, to come in and prepare for the pupuils the next day. They did so as part of an industrial dispute over pay.
I'm not going to get into the rest of this thread, other than to say, that teachers have not had a pay-rise even EQUAL to the government's quoted rate of inflation since 1988, let alone one near the TRUE rate, so have been falling behind for 21 years
The '88 act also took away, temporarily, teachers rights to negotiate their own pay and conditions, and that right has never been returned to them. Offhand I can't think of another group of workers who can't negotiate their own pay and conditions, except for the armed forces.
Before 1988, and Baker, schools were "open to pupils" for 190 days per year. The 1988 education act required them to be open to staff, but NOT to pupils for an extra 5 days a year, the so-called "training days".
So............two points:
1. Parents are NOT require to find ANY MORE childcare then they ever have been, and,
2. The reason that these days are "tagged onto school holidays" is that they are, in law, required to be so: at least one fay at the start of each term.
It was done as a piece of nastiness by the Thatcher government in 1988 when teachers refused to give up a day of their holidays at the start of the Autumn term, to come in and prepare for the pupuils the next day. They did so as part of an industrial dispute over pay.
I'm not going to get into the rest of this thread, other than to say, that teachers have not had a pay-rise even EQUAL to the government's quoted rate of inflation since 1988, let alone one near the TRUE rate, so have been falling behind for 21 years
The '88 act also took away, temporarily, teachers rights to negotiate their own pay and conditions, and that right has never been returned to them. Offhand I can't think of another group of workers who can't negotiate their own pay and conditions, except for the armed forces.
18 April 2009, 09:27 PM
#111
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Littlehampton
Posts: 2,427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunny, the ward around my school is the most socially and economically deprived ward in the entire coastal strip. While we are not inner city we are most definitely coastal strip which has it's own complex issues!
The timing of the 10% call is far from ideal but please remember we were on strike last year over pay before this all blew up so the claims were being made before the downturn. If school teachers pay had kept up with inflation since the late 80s we would not be in this situation now.
Honestly I'd take a pay cut if there was some way to sort out pupil behaviour, give power back to the schools to exclude pupils take away the right to appeal and the weakness of county and most teachers would be happy!
The timing of the 10% call is far from ideal but please remember we were on strike last year over pay before this all blew up so the claims were being made before the downturn. If school teachers pay had kept up with inflation since the late 80s we would not be in this situation now.
Honestly I'd take a pay cut if there was some way to sort out pupil behaviour, give power back to the schools to exclude pupils take away the right to appeal and the weakness of county and most teachers would be happy!
Last edited by BlueBugEye; 18 April 2009 at 09:29 PM.
18 April 2009, 09:29 PM
#112
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Pete H and anyone else going on about so-called "training days", (known to older teachers as "Baker days," after the odious creep who came up with the idea), they are laid down in law.
Before 1988, and Baker, schools were "open to pupils" for 190 days per year. The 1988 education act required them to be open to staff, but NOT to pupils for an extra 5 days a year, the so-called "training days".
So............two points:
1. Parents are NOT require to find ANY MORE childcare then they ever have been, and,
2. The reason that these days are "tagged onto school holidays" is that they are, in law, required to be so: at least one fay at the start of each term.
It was done as a piece of nastiness by the Thatcher government in 1988 when teachers refused to give up a day of their holidays at the start of the Autumn term, to come in and prepare for the pupuils the next day. They did so as part of an industrial dispute over pay.
I'm not going to get into the rest of this thread, other than to say, that teachers have not had a pay-rise even EQUAL to the government's quoted rate of inflation since 1988, let alone one near the TRUE rate, so have been falling behind for 21 years
The '88 act also took away, temporarily, teachers rights to negotiate their own pay and conditions, and that right has never been returned to them. Offhand I can't think of another group of workers who can't negotiate their own pay and conditions, except for the armed forces.
Before 1988, and Baker, schools were "open to pupils" for 190 days per year. The 1988 education act required them to be open to staff, but NOT to pupils for an extra 5 days a year, the so-called "training days".
So............two points:
1. Parents are NOT require to find ANY MORE childcare then they ever have been, and,
2. The reason that these days are "tagged onto school holidays" is that they are, in law, required to be so: at least one fay at the start of each term.
It was done as a piece of nastiness by the Thatcher government in 1988 when teachers refused to give up a day of their holidays at the start of the Autumn term, to come in and prepare for the pupuils the next day. They did so as part of an industrial dispute over pay.
I'm not going to get into the rest of this thread, other than to say, that teachers have not had a pay-rise even EQUAL to the government's quoted rate of inflation since 1988, let alone one near the TRUE rate, so have been falling behind for 21 years
The '88 act also took away, temporarily, teachers rights to negotiate their own pay and conditions, and that right has never been returned to them. Offhand I can't think of another group of workers who can't negotiate their own pay and conditions, except for the armed forces.
You try and mislead over pay (as Teachers like to do) .... please note that Teachers get TWO payrises per year - an increment rise PLUS a cost of living rise!! These rises are automatic and take the basic pay to £36,000!! Add to that a TLR Payment (maybe you look after the Bike Shed or Noticeboard?) and we have a payment of around £41,000! This is just a Classroom Teacher with minimal 'extra' responsibilities remember!
Even the Militant NUT only claim that Teachers have not kept up with RPI SINCE 2005 ...... not the 21 years you claim! And this is only on one payrise (aqs said Teachers get many payrises per year and 'extras')
18 April 2009, 09:40 PM
#113
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunny, the ward around my school is the most socially and economically deprived ward in the entire coastal strip. While we are not inner city we are most definitely coastal strip which has it's own complex issues!
The timing of the 10% call is far from ideal but please remember we were on strike last year over pay before this all blew up so the claims were being made before the downturn. If school teachers pay had kept up with inflation since the late 80s we would not be in this situation now.
Honestly I'd take a pay cut if there was some way to sort out pupil behaviour, give power back to the schools to exclude pupils take away the right to appeal and the weakness of county and most teachers would be happy!
The timing of the 10% call is far from ideal but please remember we were on strike last year over pay before this all blew up so the claims were being made before the downturn. If school teachers pay had kept up with inflation since the late 80s we would not be in this situation now.
Honestly I'd take a pay cut if there was some way to sort out pupil behaviour, give power back to the schools to exclude pupils take away the right to appeal and the weakness of county and most teachers would be happy!
As mentioned above, the NUT is only claiming that ONE of your annual payrises has failed to keep up with RPI since 2005 ... to try and claim that it stretches back into the 80's is clearly poppycock. Also, as you know, there are TWO payrises per year until you hit a basic of £36,000! For 26 hours a week directed time - that is a fantastic pay rate!
On the point of appeals, I understand where you are coming from - our school hit the Headlines a few years ago after excluding a child for assault on a LSA ..... it went to appeal and the parents/pupil had the exclusion overturned. We were then in a situation where the Teachers said they would refuse to teach the pupil, the Head said that he wouldn't force them to, it was down to the responsible body to instigate the discipline of the staff if they refused to carry out their legal duties ... helpfully, the LEA placed the child elsewhere and paid travelling costs!
However, there does need to be a right of appeal .... due process must be seen to be done .... however flawed it is.
Anyway, you expressed an interest in my school ..... pm me your CV and I will see what we can do.
18 April 2009, 09:45 PM
#114
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: wirral,merseyside
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my fiancee is a new teacher who has studied for years at uni to teach and develop youngsters who are the future of our country and she is on 20k a year rarely gets a lunch and runs after school and lunch clubs nearly daily so she earns every penny they get great holidays but so do the kids so what can you do.They also look after special needs students who take up more time and patience than regular kids and should be commended the parents of this school donated millions a year to keep the school to private standards as it used to be so not an all round **** comprehensive
18 April 2009, 09:56 PM
#115
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my fiancee is a new teacher who has studied for years at uni to teach and develop youngsters who are the future of our country and she is on 20k a year rarely gets a lunch and runs after school and lunch clubs nearly daily so she earns every penny they get great holidays but so do the kids so what can you do.They also look after special needs students who take up more time and patience than regular kids and should be commended the parents of this school donated millions a year to keep the school to private standards as it used to be so not an all round **** comprehensive
In September 2009 that is going up by 2.3% .... not bad seeing as most people are getting 0%!
Add to that the fact that your lady will be getting an increment to £23,248 in addition to the annual payrise mentioned above, that's another 7%! So, she can expect a payrise of 9.3% in basic pay within 12 months!!
And you think that is grounds for complaint??
19 April 2009, 08:43 AM
#116
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: l'on n'y peut rien
Posts: 2,922
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete, you know as well as the rest of us that the bit about incremental pay is a misdirection on your part, so please leave it out. As for TLR's etc, dream on: except in VERY rich schools, most staff just dream about them.
I am NOT a teacher, so there's another flaw in yours
As regards tagging Baker days onto holidays, unless the law has changed recently, they certainly DID have to be at least ONE at the start of each term.
And it's custom to put them at the start or end of a term anyway so as to give parents as little disruption as possible.............what do YOU think parents of young children would say if schools opened on a monday, closed on, say, a wednesday, and reopened on a thursday? And remember, they HAVE to close to pupils but be open to staff for FIVE days a year.
Oh, and Pete, you give the game away in your post above, and I quote: "Anyway, you expressed an interest in my school ..... pm me your CV and I will see what we can do."
It's NOT yours, nor even the ego-tripping governing body's.
I am NOT a teacher, so there's another flaw in yours
As regards tagging Baker days onto holidays, unless the law has changed recently, they certainly DID have to be at least ONE at the start of each term.
And it's custom to put them at the start or end of a term anyway so as to give parents as little disruption as possible.............what do YOU think parents of young children would say if schools opened on a monday, closed on, say, a wednesday, and reopened on a thursday? And remember, they HAVE to close to pupils but be open to staff for FIVE days a year.
Oh, and Pete, you give the game away in your post above, and I quote: "Anyway, you expressed an interest in my school ..... pm me your CV and I will see what we can do."
It's NOT yours, nor even the ego-tripping governing body's.
19 April 2009, 09:27 AM
#117
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Perthshire
Posts: 6,396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LOL!
I read the first post and thought to myself "This tool sounds like that other waste of skin and bandwidth PLewis!"
I skip to the last page and see the name Pete used. Same $hit different name I see.
My wife is a teacher and I am a Firefighter. You must have nothing but contempt for my household.
Today we're intending on sitting outside our very large house in the glorious sunshine with smug grins on our face, counting our vast amounts of money, laughing heartily at how we con the public in to paying us our exorbitant salaries for doing oh so little work.
Enjoy your weekend. It looks as if your idea of 'fun' differs from most.
I read the first post and thought to myself "This tool sounds like that other waste of skin and bandwidth PLewis!"
I skip to the last page and see the name Pete used. Same $hit different name I see.
My wife is a teacher and I am a Firefighter. You must have nothing but contempt for my household.
Today we're intending on sitting outside our very large house in the glorious sunshine with smug grins on our face, counting our vast amounts of money, laughing heartily at how we con the public in to paying us our exorbitant salaries for doing oh so little work.
Enjoy your weekend. It looks as if your idea of 'fun' differs from most.
19 April 2009, 11:35 AM
#120
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did give you the courtesy of presuming you were a teacher as you were spouting law to me and other stuff which, as it's plain wrong, should have alerted me to the fact that you actually knew nothing about the subject.
For your information:-
1. Increments ARE automatic .. I have yet to see one witheld.
2. TLR Payments are used, wrongly, as a retention tool .. consequently they are there for the asking.
3. The pride I have in MY school should be applauded, not scorned. The Governing Board is not an irrelevance, but is the responsible body. Who do the LEA come to if something goes wrong? The Governing Board - end of.
For your information:-
1. Increments ARE automatic .. I have yet to see one witheld.
2. TLR Payments are used, wrongly, as a retention tool .. consequently they are there for the asking.
3. The pride I have in MY school should be applauded, not scorned. The Governing Board is not an irrelevance, but is the responsible body. Who do the LEA come to if something goes wrong? The Governing Board - end of.