Hiroshima/Nagasaki Nuclear bombings
02 June 2009, 12:48 PM
#31
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Should we not also consider the possibility that the world seeing first hand the effects of even two small nuclear detonations on a populous may have been instrumental in ensuring that they have never been used since?
I do wonder sometimes whether, had they not been used in that conflict, the US military might have deployed an even larger one to help them bring a subsequent conflict to a close quickly? I suspect that the sheer horror inflicted by those two devices (which only became fully apparent generations after they were detonated) has convinced nations that their use in warfare is just unacceptable and, moreover, untenable against another nuclear equipped nation.
Pandora's box is open now though: there is no way back- the only real purpose nukes serve is as a deterrent against anyone else using them, through M.A.D. Never has there been a more apt acronym.
I do wonder sometimes whether, had they not been used in that conflict, the US military might have deployed an even larger one to help them bring a subsequent conflict to a close quickly? I suspect that the sheer horror inflicted by those two devices (which only became fully apparent generations after they were detonated) has convinced nations that their use in warfare is just unacceptable and, moreover, untenable against another nuclear equipped nation.
Pandora's box is open now though: there is no way back- the only real purpose nukes serve is as a deterrent against anyone else using them, through M.A.D. Never has there been a more apt acronym.
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 02 June 2009 at 12:49 PM.
02 June 2009, 12:51 PM
#32
The Nagasaki museum would not allow photography, but here are a couple from Hiroshima when I visited last year. If you ever get to either you WILL have a lump in your throat.
One of the many memorials in Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park
A mix of new and old
New Hiroshima
The ONLY remaining building from before the bomb - Genbaku Dome
Plaque outside
Before, during and after
And a few photographs to the same effect
Last edited by psigeek; 02 June 2009 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Get the bold right
02 June 2009, 01:13 PM
#35
02 June 2009, 01:21 PM
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Scary, reading about the Tzsar nuclear bomb. I live in Sussex, so am hoping if all kicks off, that I go straight away.
I worry, that although what the world saw how horrible this bombs are, that countries like North Korea, Iran, etc etc, will use them to prove they are now `eating at the same table as the west`.
SBK
I worry, that although what the world saw how horrible this bombs are, that countries like North Korea, Iran, etc etc, will use them to prove they are now `eating at the same table as the west`.
SBK
02 June 2009, 01:23 PM
#37
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There are also reasons pertaining to fallout: the closer to the ground the more irradiated dirt you'll drag up, which doesn't stay put over the target area....or country!!!
02 June 2009, 01:33 PM
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I have similar feelings to J4CKO. the destruction and loss of human life caused by the Hiroshima and Nagasaki A bombs was truly dreadful. I have often wondered whether the same aim of ending the war would have have been achieved by dropping a single weapon in a place where people were not killed but the destructive force could have been seen by the Japanese military and they would then could have decided whether it was really worth continuing. Also, was it really necessary to drop the second one on Nagasaki anyway? I have always been sorry for the innocent civilians who were killed or left with dreadful injuries for life and also their descendants.
I know it was my job to deliver a very much larger bucket of sunshine to a military target should the Eastern Bloc ever been so stupid to attack any part of Nato, but I was there to dissuade them from even thinking of trying that on since they knew that we would have returned their favour in spades should they have done so. The M.A.D syndrome at the time did at least prevent a war starting up and that is what our major task was at the time. The fact that it was almost certainly a one way trip was of no consequence since there would have been nothing to come back to anyway!
It was said that after the Cold War ended, the world woud become a more dangerous place, and that was not far off the mark.
I have said often enough that I consider war to be obscene and that it should be avoided as far as possible. My time in the Services with the rest of my crew was devoted to exactly that.
Les
I know it was my job to deliver a very much larger bucket of sunshine to a military target should the Eastern Bloc ever been so stupid to attack any part of Nato, but I was there to dissuade them from even thinking of trying that on since they knew that we would have returned their favour in spades should they have done so. The M.A.D syndrome at the time did at least prevent a war starting up and that is what our major task was at the time. The fact that it was almost certainly a one way trip was of no consequence since there would have been nothing to come back to anyway!
It was said that after the Cold War ended, the world woud become a more dangerous place, and that was not far off the mark.
I have said often enough that I consider war to be obscene and that it should be avoided as far as possible. My time in the Services with the rest of my crew was devoted to exactly that.
Les
02 June 2009, 01:50 PM
#39
"Since 50 Mt is 2.1×1017 joules, the average power produced during the entire fission-fusion process, lasting around 39 nanoseconds, was about 5.4×1024 watts or 5.4 yottawatts. This is equivalent to approximately 1.4% of the power output of the Sun.[9]"
Its quite astonishing that man is capable of creating something that powerful.
Its quite astonishing that man is capable of creating something that powerful.
02 June 2009, 01:55 PM
#40
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"Since 50 Mt is 2.1×1017 joules, the average power produced during the entire fission-fusion process, lasting around 39 nanoseconds, was about 5.4×1024 watts or 5.4 yottawatts. This is equivalent to approximately 1.4% of the power output of the Sun.[9]"
Its quite astonishing that man is capable of creating something that powerful.
Its quite astonishing that man is capable of creating something that powerful.
If ONLY we could put some more of the kind of intellect required to harness that kind of power into things not intended to blow us to smithereens!
02 June 2009, 02:02 PM
#41
"Since 50 Mt is 2.1×1017 joules, the average power produced during the entire fission-fusion process, lasting around 39 nanoseconds, was about 5.4×1024 watts or 5.4 yottawatts. This is equivalent to approximately 1.4% of the power output of the Sun.[9]"
Its quite astonishing that man is capable of creating something that powerful.
Its quite astonishing that man is capable of creating something that powerful.
"I made one great mistake in my life... when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification - the danger that the Germans would make them."
02 June 2009, 02:14 PM
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And if a 30-tonne bomb is too unwieldy to carry about how about a man-portable battlefield nuke like this one :
YouTube - M65 Recoiless Nuclear Rifle
err providing you can get out of the blast radius / fallout radius in time !
YouTube - M65 Recoiless Nuclear Rifle
err providing you can get out of the blast radius / fallout radius in time !
02 June 2009, 02:18 PM
#44
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Further justification/mitigation for good ole Albert is that I don't think even he realized at the time just what he as unleashing....wasn't there also a quote along the lines of "Had I known, I would elected to be a plumber!"
02 June 2009, 02:40 PM
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What does M.A.D stand for ?
Also, I know it might sound stupid, but that Frankie goes to Hollywood music video of the Regan / Gobry fighting, perhaps is a good idea.
All the leaders, dictators, etc etc, all fight it out, hand to hand. Settle things the old way. It seems that 98% of the world just want to be left alone and live peacefully. Obviously I cant include the Scottish in that figure ! hahahaah
SBK
Also, I know it might sound stupid, but that Frankie goes to Hollywood music video of the Regan / Gobry fighting, perhaps is a good idea.
All the leaders, dictators, etc etc, all fight it out, hand to hand. Settle things the old way. It seems that 98% of the world just want to be left alone and live peacefully. Obviously I cant include the Scottish in that figure ! hahahaah
SBK
02 June 2009, 02:41 PM
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What does M.A.D stand for ?
Also, I know it might sound stupid, but that Frankie goes to Hollywood music video of the Regan / Gobry fighting, perhaps is a good idea.
All the leaders, dictators, etc etc, all fight it out, hand to hand. Settle things the old way. It seems that 98% of the world just want to be left alone and live peacefully. Obviously I cant include the Scottish in that figure ! hahahaah
SBK
Also, I know it might sound stupid, but that Frankie goes to Hollywood music video of the Regan / Gobry fighting, perhaps is a good idea.
All the leaders, dictators, etc etc, all fight it out, hand to hand. Settle things the old way. It seems that 98% of the world just want to be left alone and live peacefully. Obviously I cant include the Scottish in that figure ! hahahaah
SBK
MAD
Basically, no-one will instigate a nuclear confrontation because, no one can win it -the loses would be certain to be utterly catastrophic for both sides. Thus the weapons are merely deterrents.
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 02 June 2009 at 02:43 PM.
02 June 2009, 02:42 PM
#48
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What happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is awful, be it war or not. I have been to both museums and some of the stuff in there is frightening. The pictures PSigeek has posted above dont really show the devistation done. When you walk into the museum in Hiroshima the first thing you come across is two models of the city, one before and one after. The after model looks like they just poured petrol over it and set it on fire, its nothing but a charred mess!
After having read a few books on the subject I would say the decision taken to drop the bomb on Hiroshima was taken to shorten the way and protect Allied soldiers. As said the resistance on Iwa Jima was much more than the americans expected and this level of fighting would have only intensified closer to the Japanese home land. Dropping the Bomb on Nagasaki will never be justified in my eyes, they didnt need to drop it, a simple, we will if you dont surrender would have done.
From the otherside, I've lived in Japan, I'm married to a Japanese national and I study Japanese history. You have to remember the Japanese are a fanatical race, why do you think they have such a massive share of the world market, its because they work bloody hard thats why. This coupled with the Japanese Class and Feudal system which even today is evident. Why do you think they still bow to each other and why do you think lower ranking employees bow lower than their bosses. Its to do with respect and honour.
During the second world war the japanese threw everything into the war effort, to the point where japanese households where expected to give to the war effort and the troups, this was first in the males of the family, food, their metal pots and pans, wood, almost to the point where the population at large where left with nothing but the clothes they stood up in. All in the name of Honour and Respect for the emperor, who was seen as a kind of diety, a living god! Not to do any of these things was not only a mark of disrepect, but would also have brought about great shame on the family. This goes back to the samurai classes and why the Japanese soldiers would rather commit HaraKiri, Sepuku or Suicide by other means than face capture, defeat and shame on return to your families.
The only western film I have seen which depects this in detail is Letters from Iwa Jima.
So on one hand we have the americans with an atomic bomb and on the other we have a fanatical population who will do anything to protect their home land. What would you have done?
After having read a few books on the subject I would say the decision taken to drop the bomb on Hiroshima was taken to shorten the way and protect Allied soldiers. As said the resistance on Iwa Jima was much more than the americans expected and this level of fighting would have only intensified closer to the Japanese home land. Dropping the Bomb on Nagasaki will never be justified in my eyes, they didnt need to drop it, a simple, we will if you dont surrender would have done.
From the otherside, I've lived in Japan, I'm married to a Japanese national and I study Japanese history. You have to remember the Japanese are a fanatical race, why do you think they have such a massive share of the world market, its because they work bloody hard thats why. This coupled with the Japanese Class and Feudal system which even today is evident. Why do you think they still bow to each other and why do you think lower ranking employees bow lower than their bosses. Its to do with respect and honour.
During the second world war the japanese threw everything into the war effort, to the point where japanese households where expected to give to the war effort and the troups, this was first in the males of the family, food, their metal pots and pans, wood, almost to the point where the population at large where left with nothing but the clothes they stood up in. All in the name of Honour and Respect for the emperor, who was seen as a kind of diety, a living god! Not to do any of these things was not only a mark of disrepect, but would also have brought about great shame on the family. This goes back to the samurai classes and why the Japanese soldiers would rather commit HaraKiri, Sepuku or Suicide by other means than face capture, defeat and shame on return to your families.
The only western film I have seen which depects this in detail is Letters from Iwa Jima.
So on one hand we have the americans with an atomic bomb and on the other we have a fanatical population who will do anything to protect their home land. What would you have done?
Last edited by mykp; 02 June 2009 at 02:46 PM. Reason: spelling
02 June 2009, 02:53 PM
#49
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I agree with a lot of the above, but I still say one A bomb dropped in a place where the Japanese could see its destructive power without loss of life should have been sufficient. If that did not work-then go further but at least give them the chance of saving all those civilians etc.
I reckon we could do with a bit more respect and polite behaviour in this world.
Les
I reckon we could do with a bit more respect and polite behaviour in this world.
Les
02 June 2009, 02:58 PM
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The Japanese cultural is one Ive always wanted to learn about. Amazing race of people. Such control, honour and respect, but behind doors, so kinky and perverted.
Never hada chinese g/f, but always wanted one :-) Amazing bodies.
Anyway, back to the A bomb.
SBK
Never hada chinese g/f, but always wanted one :-) Amazing bodies.
Anyway, back to the A bomb.
SBK
02 June 2009, 02:59 PM
#51
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I agree with a lot of the above, but I still say one A bomb dropped in a place where the Japanese could see its destructive power without loss of life should have been sufficient. If that did not work-then go further but at least give them the chance of saving all those civilians etc.
I reckon we could do with a bit more respect and polite behaviour in this world.
Les
I reckon we could do with a bit more respect and polite behaviour in this world.
Les
Although, in respect of the first point, presumably the Japanese had already seen the results of Trinity..... Do any history buffs know if there was an offer extended to the Japanese to surrender at that point? I believe that the US dropped flyers over the target areas a couple of days before the devices were used warning people to get out.
Now that's a BAD morning's post
"Post has arrived dear......usual junk mail, oh, and a warning of impending Armageddon!.....well, on the plus side, the phone company can now shove their reminder letter"
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 02 June 2009 at 03:06 PM.
02 June 2009, 03:03 PM
#52
What happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is awful, be it war or not. I have been to both museums and some of the stuff in there is frightening. The pictures PSigeek has posted above dont really show the devistation done. When you walk into the museum in Hiroshima the first thing you come across is two models of the city, one before and one after. The after model looks like they just poured petrol over it and set it on fire, its nothing but a charred mess!
.
02 June 2009, 03:18 PM
#53
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When I grew up in the '80's it was all about ground-launched Cruise missiles in GB (Greenham Common and Molesworth) and medium-range Pershing II missiles based in West Germany. I believe the Pershing was expected to counteract the threat of Soviet tank-led invasion through the Eastern bloc. I am sure it wouldn't have left much territory to fight over with Soviet SS20's on the other side of the border.
I don't think either side would have just left it as an honourable draw with a roasted Germany to show for their efforts.
02 June 2009, 07:16 PM
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Ns " How you like that, Hans Blix" 04