Andy Forest's Performance Guide?
09 June 2009, 12:59 PM
#32
Scooby Regular
. i thought they were all the same. what you pushing on your one tidgy?
09 June 2009, 01:01 PM
#33
Scooby Regular
Hey Mate,
Bob Rawle will also advocate going to 400bhp on standard internals with the appropriate supporting mods and mapping
BRDevelopments
When I enquired about it on my last trip to him to have Simtek fitted to my MY99; he said, "yeah you can go for 400bhp, but I'd budget for a new clutch and gearbox if I were you"
It would seem that it's really a matter of achieveing the 400 mark using sensible boost given the engine internals and experience now suggests that even the UK models can run 1.4-5 bar reliably.
I'll stick with about 340-350 for now and when I do an upgrade, do it properly and aim for 450
Ns04
Bob Rawle will also advocate going to 400bhp on standard internals with the appropriate supporting mods and mapping
BRDevelopments
When I enquired about it on my last trip to him to have Simtek fitted to my MY99; he said, "yeah you can go for 400bhp, but I'd budget for a new clutch and gearbox if I were you"
It would seem that it's really a matter of achieveing the 400 mark using sensible boost given the engine internals and experience now suggests that even the UK models can run 1.4-5 bar reliably.
I'll stick with about 340-350 for now and when I do an upgrade, do it properly and aim for 450
Ns04
is that a bob rawle 400? pmsl
09 June 2009, 01:29 PM
#34
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bridgend, S Wales
Posts: 2,293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am quite sympathetic with clutch/gearbox and don't rev to redline all the time.
However, my driving style has changed since bigger turbo as it kicks in a bit later but holds on nearly until redline.
So I am basically revving a bit more than I did - Td04 runs out of puff @ 5500, whereas VF35 happily goes upto 6500.
Currently have an issue regarding clutch pedal not fully returning so very frustrating!!
09 June 2009, 01:50 PM
#36
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been running the VF35 for about 3 years now, had two further maps to adjust for other supporting mods: FMIC/AVCR, induction kit etc... then a Simtek.
For your power aspirations you're looking at a TD05 18/20G with supporting mods. Depending on how you drive and the current condition of your transmission, I would also expect you to need a better gearbox/clutch!
Ns04
09 June 2009, 02:21 PM
#37
Only 3 weeks on the second remap to 325, 3 years on the previous one running 273.
I am quite sympathetic with clutch/gearbox and don't rev to redline all the time.
However, my driving style has changed since bigger turbo as it kicks in a bit later but holds on nearly until redline.
So I am basically revving a bit more than I did - Td04 runs out of puff @ 5500, whereas VF35 happily goes upto 6500.
Currently have an issue regarding clutch pedal not fully returning so very frustrating!!
I am quite sympathetic with clutch/gearbox and don't rev to redline all the time.
However, my driving style has changed since bigger turbo as it kicks in a bit later but holds on nearly until redline.
So I am basically revving a bit more than I did - Td04 runs out of puff @ 5500, whereas VF35 happily goes upto 6500.
Currently have an issue regarding clutch pedal not fully returning so very frustrating!!
Ns04 how responsive is the VF35? if the 35 can make upto 360 then i would be happy to keep it as i have one at the moment. i am planning on throwing a 18G and 650cc injectors on a version 3 sti lump. i would be happy with anything between 360-380hp. gearbox is the least of my worries as i know the sti transmission is robust, however the clucth would certainly need to be changed. i also believe that the standard version 3 sti can cope with the power stated above if mapped correctly & last if maintained well.
09 June 2009, 02:59 PM
#38
We have 18g turbos on the shelf here if needed though.
Last edited by Aztec Performance Ltd; 09 June 2009 at 03:01 PM.
09 June 2009, 03:26 PM
#39
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bridgend, S Wales
Posts: 2,293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However, when mapping Bob was very pleased it was making 1bar @ 3k. Its mapped to 1.5bar, so not sure exactly when it hits 1.5bar but its pretty soon after that!
Which I presume also partially answers your Q above as to how responsive it is.
in 1st gear??
09 June 2009, 07:24 PM
#47
Ive always used bobs mapping skills and his figures have been pretty much the same as powerstations rollers.
Tidy you seem to have a hang up/gripe with bobs figures as you've mentioned this before, is there something your not telling us?
cheers
Tidy you seem to have a hang up/gripe with bobs figures as you've mentioned this before, is there something your not telling us?
cheers
09 June 2009, 07:26 PM
#49
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bridgend, S Wales
Posts: 2,293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tidgy,
Bob recently remapped my car to what you think is an optimistic 325/320.
Previously remapped on Powerstations pessimistic rollers @ 273/273.
All I can say is it has a made a BIG, BIG difference.
So if his figures are optimistic it can't be by much.
Also from the many posts/write-ups from people with very similar mods to mine that I have read the figures seem spot on??
Anyway, whatever the actual figure - bum dyno says WOW
Bob recently remapped my car to what you think is an optimistic 325/320.
Previously remapped on Powerstations pessimistic rollers @ 273/273.
All I can say is it has a made a BIG, BIG difference.
So if his figures are optimistic it can't be by much.
Also from the many posts/write-ups from people with very similar mods to mine that I have read the figures seem spot on??
Anyway, whatever the actual figure - bum dyno says WOW
09 June 2009, 07:28 PM
#50
Scooby Regular
dont get me wrong, the car will go like stink, its not all about peak figures , just know a few people who have had experiances of being told certain power and them not running that.
, just know a few people who have had experiances of being told certain power and them not running that.
09 June 2009, 08:12 PM
#51
[quote=Tidgy;8755458]dont get me wrong, the car will go like stink, its not all about peak figures quote]
agree with you on that, ive sat in a few cars that only run like 270break but feel as there running more. it wouldnt bother me if my car was only 250bhp as long as it was aggressive and rapid.
agree with you on that, ive sat in a few cars that only run like 270break but feel as there running more. it wouldnt bother me if my car was only 250bhp as long as it was aggressive and rapid.
09 June 2009, 09:51 PM
#52
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thats exactly what i & my mate think about Andy's set power levels and always have a discussion about it, however many other people do get into disputes with me about this matter. after a read through on AF's site i spotted the 2.0 litre MY 95 WRX RA that held the fastest 1/4 mile record for 2 years on stock internals running 440bhp!!! that does show its tryed and tested to its peakest.
AF knows his stuff mate. His reputation is up in the best ranks.
09 June 2009, 10:13 PM
#53
Scooby Regular
So do you think when he gives an estimate of 400bhp on standard internals on his website, that it would be closer to 350bhp, since you don't think 400 is wise?
Last edited by GlesgaKiss; 09 June 2009 at 10:15 PM.
09 June 2009, 11:12 PM
#54
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we need to be VERY clear about something here.
No mapper, I repeat NO mapper will ever be able to call a result in advance with 100% accuracy. Even cars with the same mods can produce quite different results. Also, the figures you get depend on how the car is tested and there are so many variables here, it isn't even funny!
I very much doubt any of the established mappers are deliberately giving inflated estimates: discrepancies are most likely an artifact of wildly different conditions of testing. I'm also pretty damn sure that EVERY mapper has had a customer come back to them saying "how comes my car produces about 20bhp less than you said it would on x rolling road" It's inevitable!
Both Andy and Bob seem to be advocating broadly the same approach to getting 400bhp and I'm sure both will tell you that the final figure may vary depending on numerous factors - the advertised figure is only a ballpark: the car may produce more, it may do less.
My figures from Bob were all derived from road testing. Most importantly I got PERFORMANCE figures: you can argue about peak bhp and torque derived from RRs all you like; it's virtually meaningless. What matters is what happens when the rubber hits the road i.e. how quick the car is!
As an example: if car 'a' has purports to have 320bhp and car 'b' 340, but on the road car 'a' covers the 40-60, 60-80 increments quicker (say in third gear), then car 'a' is the quicker car under those conditions, regardless of what the peak figures are saying!
It really isn't worth getting caught up with peak power and torque estimates: these only tell a small part of the story in any case.
It's much better to think in terms of "performance margins".
No mapper, I repeat NO mapper will ever be able to call a result in advance with 100% accuracy. Even cars with the same mods can produce quite different results. Also, the figures you get depend on how the car is tested and there are so many variables here, it isn't even funny!
I very much doubt any of the established mappers are deliberately giving inflated estimates: discrepancies are most likely an artifact of wildly different conditions of testing. I'm also pretty damn sure that EVERY mapper has had a customer come back to them saying "how comes my car produces about 20bhp less than you said it would on x rolling road" It's inevitable!
Both Andy and Bob seem to be advocating broadly the same approach to getting 400bhp and I'm sure both will tell you that the final figure may vary depending on numerous factors - the advertised figure is only a ballpark: the car may produce more, it may do less.
My figures from Bob were all derived from road testing. Most importantly I got PERFORMANCE figures: you can argue about peak bhp and torque derived from RRs all you like; it's virtually meaningless. What matters is what happens when the rubber hits the road i.e. how quick the car is!
As an example: if car 'a' has purports to have 320bhp and car 'b' 340, but on the road car 'a' covers the 40-60, 60-80 increments quicker (say in third gear), then car 'a' is the quicker car under those conditions, regardless of what the peak figures are saying!
It really isn't worth getting caught up with peak power and torque estimates: these only tell a small part of the story in any case.
It's much better to think in terms of "performance margins".
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 09 June 2009 at 11:19 PM.
10 June 2009, 08:23 AM
#55
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Newscooby 04 is correct.
Everyone bangs on about Bhp & lb/ft, it's not the most important factor by a long way.
The raw performance, balance and feel of the car is what it's all about.
I am running a genuine 500+ Bhp Impreza P1 and I would be amazed if any car with higher power figures would keep up from any chosen "A to B" route, because much input has been put into the whole car and not just Bhp.
In the same breath there could be a well balanced car at 420 Bhp that may beat mine.
I used to believe that Bhp & lb/ft was thee most important thing. It's not.
https://www.scoobynet.com/projects-4...p1-600bhp.html
Everyone bangs on about Bhp & lb/ft, it's not the most important factor by a long way.
The raw performance, balance and feel of the car is what it's all about.
I am running a genuine 500+ Bhp Impreza P1 and I would be amazed if any car with higher power figures would keep up from any chosen "A to B" route, because much input has been put into the whole car and not just Bhp.
In the same breath there could be a well balanced car at 420 Bhp that may beat mine.
I used to believe that Bhp & lb/ft was thee most important thing. It's not.
https://www.scoobynet.com/projects-4...p1-600bhp.html
10 June 2009, 02:45 PM
#56
2003 uk wrx blob eye (i.e. not sti).
* apexi cone intake
* andy f td05-20g
* sti intercooler
* lateral 3 bolt headers
* decat 2.5" system to a ppp backbox
* 3 port perrin boost solenoid
* adjustable fuel pressure regulator
* sti pink injectors
* walbro 255l/h pump
* 10% E85 (bioethanol) per tankful of vpower.
Mapped by JGM to run 1.5x bar and it seems to hold it to the red line.
When I drove it home from work yesterday it made 1 bar by around 3500 rpm and full boost not a long time after (we're talking split seconds) in 3rd gear. In 5th I get 1 bar before 3000 rpm.
Some of the early spool may have to do with the E85 addition, but at the moment I do not feel like I need more power, and I've had the set-up for about 7 months now and done about 7k miles in that time.
* apexi cone intake
* andy f td05-20g
* sti intercooler
* lateral 3 bolt headers
* decat 2.5" system to a ppp backbox
* 3 port perrin boost solenoid
* adjustable fuel pressure regulator
* sti pink injectors
* walbro 255l/h pump
* 10% E85 (bioethanol) per tankful of vpower.
Mapped by JGM to run 1.5x bar and it seems to hold it to the red line.
When I drove it home from work yesterday it made 1 bar by around 3500 rpm and full boost not a long time after (we're talking split seconds) in 3rd gear. In 5th I get 1 bar before 3000 rpm.
Some of the early spool may have to do with the E85 addition, but at the moment I do not feel like I need more power, and I've had the set-up for about 7 months now and done about 7k miles in that time.
10 June 2009, 03:57 PM
#57
As an example: if car 'a' has purports to have 320bhp and car 'b' 340, but on the road car 'a' covers the 40-60, 60-80 increments quicker (say in third gear), then car 'a' is the quicker car under those conditions, regardless of what the peak figures are saying!
It's much better to think in terms of "performance margins".
2003 uk wrx blob eye (i.e. not sti).
* apexi cone intake
* andy f td05-20g
* sti intercooler
* lateral 3 bolt headers
* decat 2.5" system to a ppp backbox
* 3 port perrin boost solenoid
* adjustable fuel pressure regulator
* sti pink injectors
* walbro 255l/h pump
* 10% E85 (bioethanol) per tankful of vpower.
Mapped by JGM to run 1.5x bar and it seems to hold it to the red line.
When I drove it home from work yesterday it made 1 bar by around 3500 rpm and full boost not a long time after (we're talking split seconds) in 3rd gear. In 5th I get 1 bar before 3000 rpm.
Some of the early spool may have to do with the E85 addition, but at the moment I do not feel like I need more power, and I've had the set-up for about 7 months now and done about 7k miles in that time.
* apexi cone intake
* andy f td05-20g
* sti intercooler
* lateral 3 bolt headers
* decat 2.5" system to a ppp backbox
* 3 port perrin boost solenoid
* adjustable fuel pressure regulator
* sti pink injectors
* walbro 255l/h pump
* 10% E85 (bioethanol) per tankful of vpower.
Mapped by JGM to run 1.5x bar and it seems to hold it to the red line.
When I drove it home from work yesterday it made 1 bar by around 3500 rpm and full boost not a long time after (we're talking split seconds) in 3rd gear. In 5th I get 1 bar before 3000 rpm.
Some of the early spool may have to do with the E85 addition, but at the moment I do not feel like I need more power, and I've had the set-up for about 7 months now and done about 7k miles in that time.
10 June 2009, 04:25 PM
#58
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (41)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
Posts: 13,347
Received 55 Likes
on
42 Posts
lots of theoretical talk here about standard UK internals and power figures...not sure what mine was running but after 18months on one of Andy's 18g's I did this to the block after I snapped a rod.
Your standard gearbox will get eaten by the torque too.
Your standard gearbox will get eaten by the torque too.
10 June 2009, 04:35 PM
#59
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's all theoretical! Some cars have popped a piston at 280bhp others are going strong at 400+ despite some "committed use"
If Andy and Bob say it can be done reliably, I'd be inclined to believe them....... but at the same time, I will be waiting till I go forged before increasing my power further
10 June 2009, 05:08 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (41)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
Posts: 13,347
Received 55 Likes
on
42 Posts
i did my best
definitely all theoretical because all engines are slightly different what with manufacture and build tolerances ...just wanted to remind the power hungry on the thread what the most likely consequences are of increasing power on standard internals beyond a certain level. I knew I was going to break mine, it was only a question of when...so I was prepared for it
definitely all theoretical because all engines are slightly different what with manufacture and build tolerances ...just wanted to remind the power hungry on the thread what the most likely consequences are of increasing power on standard internals beyond a certain level. I knew I was going to break mine, it was only a question of when...so I was prepared for it