Following on from the G20... Excessive or justified?
16 June 2009, 04:58 PM
#31
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Easy solution, don't get pissed up, then assault somebody and then finally refuse to be cuffed, if you don't do those 3 things then you won't get tazered.
All pissed up bruisers should get a good shoeing like this, it's the only language they understand, trying to reason with them just don't work.
And I'd happily take that treatment if I was causing the same situation.
Wasting police time by trying to negotate with pissheads and druggies is futile, show them the cosh, good and hard!
I learnt my lesson with strong arm police tactics when growing up, never did me any harm and I feel a grudging respect for them and the job they have to do these days.
All pissed up bruisers should get a good shoeing like this, it's the only language they understand, trying to reason with them just don't work.
And I'd happily take that treatment if I was causing the same situation.
Wasting police time by trying to negotate with pissheads and druggies is futile, show them the cosh, good and hard!
I learnt my lesson with strong arm police tactics when growing up, never did me any harm and I feel a grudging respect for them and the job they have to do these days.
What he said.
I learnt during my ever so slightly wayward youth that just do what the cops ask you to do, even if they are trying to cuff you and you haven't done anything wrong, that can be sorted out later.
They are taught to control a situation, if you don't let them take control they will escalate their methods until they do ie shouting/orders will turn to an arm lock, and then onto three officers on top of you using legitimate choke holds etc and then cs gas/tazers etc.
So just let them take control at the very beginning
I think any pissed **** wandering around a town centre being leary and aggressive should be coshed and then have 50000volts up his ****
16 June 2009, 06:02 PM
#32
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Wouldn't it be handy if someone had actually seen the full incident log...
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
16 June 2009, 06:49 PM
#34
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We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
Whilst the police always need to be accountable for their actions and should use force only after other methods have failed, expecting them to wade in to situations where they have to deal with individuals who have no compunction about using violence (and a weapon) empowered to do nothing more than shout:
"Stop in the name of the law governor"
Is handing this country to the kind of scum who think getting pished up, hurting others, and refusing to co-operate with the police is acceptable.
Bit less PC (political correctness), and a bit more PC (i.e. Police constable) ...if you see what I mean!
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 16 June 2009 at 06:51 PM.
16 June 2009, 09:07 PM
#38
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Wouldn't it be handy if someone had actually seen the full incident log...
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
Well said !
17 June 2009, 03:07 AM
#39
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I'm sorry, but this made me lol. So the correct procedure for a tasering involves pressing the trigger, THEN shouting taser taser taser? There's me thinking they had to shout the warning BEFORE pressing the trigger.
17 June 2009, 07:26 AM
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Wouldn't it be handy if someone had actually seen the full incident log...
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
Lucky he wasn't running for the tube ,they shoot you dead for that
17 June 2009, 07:27 AM
#41
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I could have sworn he was already tasered by the time the video starts, the shout of taser taser taser is to inform its going to be used again.
Who knows what the warnings were before usage. If he is warning of further shots, I'm sure he used all the right warnings from the point of drawing the weapon.
Act like an arsehole, I don't see why they should warn you. Can you imagine if they had to shout Asp asp asp, or wrist lock wrist lock wrist lock!
Who knows what the warnings were before usage. If he is warning of further shots, I'm sure he used all the right warnings from the point of drawing the weapon.
Act like an arsehole, I don't see why they should warn you. Can you imagine if they had to shout Asp asp asp, or wrist lock wrist lock wrist lock!
17 June 2009, 07:30 AM
#42
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I could have sworn he was already tasered by the time the video starts, the shout of taser taser taser is to inform its going to be used again.
Who knows what the warnings were before usage. If he is warning of further shots, I'm sure he used all the right warnings from the point of drawing the weapon.
Act like an arsehole, I don't see why they should warn you. Can you imagine if they had to shout Asp asp asp, or wrist lock wrist lock wrist lock!
Who knows what the warnings were before usage. If he is warning of further shots, I'm sure he used all the right warnings from the point of drawing the weapon.
Act like an arsehole, I don't see why they should warn you. Can you imagine if they had to shout Asp asp asp, or wrist lock wrist lock wrist lock!
or I'm going to baton you in the kidneys then push you over you confused alcoholic simpleton
yeah - Imagine that
17 June 2009, 07:35 AM
#43
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If you can't comply with police requests.... Oh well.
As for JCD, I love the way the name keeps coming up, nothing like it, no comparison, and tragic..... But understandable, however hard it is to come to terms with.
The tasered guy was tasered before the vid started, believed to have a weapon, and dealt with accordingly.
Such is life.
17 June 2009, 07:39 AM
#44
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Indeed - I don't have much sympathy for the guy IF he is guilty.
Thing is - last time I checked we had Courts , Juries and Judges for that - not overweight ninjas.
hmmmm - maybe I could be a copper - I'm overweight have a short fuse and love a good scrap - where do I sign up.
Thing is - last time I checked we had Courts , Juries and Judges for that - not overweight ninjas
.hmmmm - maybe I could be a copper - I'm overweight have a short fuse and love a good scrap - where do I sign up.
17 June 2009, 07:40 AM
#45
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Lol get pissed, act an ****, take what's coming to you. Drunk people annoy me staggering through town centres.
If you can't comply with police requests.... Oh well.
As for JCD, I love the way the name keeps coming up, nothing like it, no comparison, and tragic..... But understandable, however hard it is to come to terms with.
The tasered guy was tasered before the vid started, believed to have a weapon, and dealt with accordingly.
Such is life.
If you can't comply with police requests.... Oh well.
As for JCD, I love the way the name keeps coming up, nothing like it, no comparison, and tragic..... But understandable, however hard it is to come to terms with.
The tasered guy was tasered before the vid started, believed to have a weapon, and dealt with accordingly.
Such is life.
The JCD incident show just how heavy handed these nutters can be
.
17 June 2009, 07:55 AM
#46
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I saw this on the news the other day and was just waiting for a thread like this.
Pesonally ANYONE that i arrest gets handcuffed, for my own saftey and that of my colleauges, as most of the time i know nothing about the person, and what history they have etc...
As long as the officers have followed the officer saftey model, and the officer who was using the tazer felt justified in their actions along side the officer saftey model then we wil just have to wait until the IPCC finish their investigations and see what they say rather than speculating.
An interesting fact about Tazer from when i did my Tazer awareness training, was that while the shock is on, you can actually be in contact with the person being tazered without any risk, not sure that i want to test that though
Pesonally ANYONE that i arrest gets handcuffed, for my own saftey and that of my colleauges, as most of the time i know nothing about the person, and what history they have etc...
As long as the officers have followed the officer saftey model, and the officer who was using the tazer felt justified in their actions along side the officer saftey model then we wil just have to wait until the IPCC finish their investigations and see what they say rather than speculating.
An interesting fact about Tazer from when i did my Tazer awareness training, was that while the shock is on, you can actually be in contact with the person being tazered without any risk, not sure that i want to test that though
17 June 2009, 08:14 AM
#47
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Ian Tomlinson was killed almost 3 months ago - and IF the guy that killed him is guilty how much longer is he going to be servicing the great un-washed before being brought to Justice.
Maybe it's only coppers that deserve protection from the public and not the other way round.
Welcome to Gogsie Brown's Britain !
17 June 2009, 09:17 AM
#48
You are way too willing to roll over. Just because a police man tells you to do something, it doesn't automatically make it A) legal, B) "right".
Edit: and you should be able to argue your point without being physically attacked.
Edit: and you should be able to argue your point without being physically attacked.
Last edited by Henrik; 17 June 2009 at 09:19 AM.
17 June 2009, 10:25 AM
#49
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Some people on here really do need to grow up.
This guy is not some random **** head. He was id'd as the offender who just committed a serious assault. When challenged he resisted and force was used. He was dealt with, by the book, and arrested.
This is no Rodney King for petes sake, the guy gets tasered, so what. Its not like they beat him into unconsciousness with batons or something. So what they gave him a couple of digs to the arm, that, IMHO is more than reasonable considering the person would not release their arm.
If anyone thinks this is just some random person the police have "picked on" and decided to beat up then you need to have a serious word with yourself.
All this talk of ***** and bullies, its just pathetic. If you cant see that from the video and take this on board then your view of the police is clouded by other events where perhaps the police have not acted correctly.
Its a bit like saying all catholic priests are kiddy fiddlers.... or all Germans want to kill Jews... comon get a life people.
I fully agree with people about other incidents where the police have gone way OTT, it has happened. But these 4 officers did things right, and yet they get slated as a ****.
This (below) is EXACTLY why the officers had to detain this person.. people think tasers and CS are "magic" and stop people fighting... the number of people who get CS'd and then never make it into custody is quite alarming, and on the whole these tend to be people wanted for a crime so they really need to be detained.
YouTube - Man Gets Tazed, Mocks Cops, and Gets Away
This guy is not some random **** head. He was id'd as the offender who just committed a serious assault. When challenged he resisted and force was used. He was dealt with, by the book, and arrested.
This is no Rodney King for petes sake, the guy gets tasered, so what. Its not like they beat him into unconsciousness with batons or something. So what they gave him a couple of digs to the arm, that, IMHO is more than reasonable considering the person would not release their arm.
If anyone thinks this is just some random person the police have "picked on" and decided to beat up then you need to have a serious word with yourself.
All this talk of ***** and bullies, its just pathetic. If you cant see that from the video and take this on board then your view of the police is clouded by other events where perhaps the police have not acted correctly.
Its a bit like saying all catholic priests are kiddy fiddlers.... or all Germans want to kill Jews... comon get a life people.
I fully agree with people about other incidents where the police have gone way OTT, it has happened. But these 4 officers did things right, and yet they get slated as a ****.
This (below) is EXACTLY why the officers had to detain this person.. people think tasers and CS are "magic" and stop people fighting... the number of people who get CS'd and then never make it into custody is quite alarming, and on the whole these tend to be people wanted for a crime so they really need to be detained.
YouTube - Man Gets Tazed, Mocks Cops, and Gets Away
17 June 2009, 10:35 AM
#50
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Apparently the police have been known to mistakenly identify folk in the past.
As I mentioned before - at least this guy isn't dead - so at least that's something
17 June 2009, 10:47 AM
#51
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You are nit picking... we are not talking "ifs" we are talking "DID"
The guy was identified as an offender, at some point earlier in the stop would have been challenged (if armed it would have been an immediate hard challenge I expect) and would have been able to comply... He chose not to, and got tasered.
They have tasers to use them, not to look pretty. They didnt use a brick, a stick or a wooden leg, they used an approved weapon and method. If they were taking him down with an asp instead, and hit his legs, and he didnt go down, should they be allowed to try again with a second and third strike, or have to leave it there?
As for the original comment of me "rolling over" too easily. No mate, quite the opposite, I know and stand by my rights. But then again I have morals, and self respect, and dont stagger around in public drunk or go hitting people or carrying weapons. If I were in his position, did wrong, then got stopped,... shown a taser I would cuff myself!
Jasey, I believe in one of the reports it says he was identified to the police by the doormen at the pub he had committed the offence in.
17 June 2009, 11:07 AM
#52
Last time I looked the police were the police, not judge, not jury and not punisher.
To be fair to the police, the media have certainly spun the story to look like police brutality. There is insufficient evidence to make the call in their favour. I was about to say that nobody deserved to take a beating like that but then I thought about what he may have done that wasn't on tape - we simply don't know. I still beleive that the police should have detained and not kicked the crap out of the guy, regardless if he was "asking for it".
To be fair to the police, the media have certainly spun the story to look like police brutality. There is insufficient evidence to make the call in their favour. I was about to say that nobody deserved to take a beating like that but then I thought about what he may have done that wasn't on tape - we simply don't know. I still beleive that the police should have detained and not kicked the crap out of the guy, regardless if he was "asking for it".
17 June 2009, 11:11 AM
#53
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This is what I meant mate.
G00ner, spot on mate
Les, it would not really draw parallels to JCD's death and this. Very different circumstances.
While its forceful, they did NOT have control of him. If he was cuffed and being tasered then fair enough. All he had to do was put his arms behind his back, is that so hard?
The thumping happens a lot, and I believe part of certain training.
He did not appear to be trying to escape, but he also didnt appear to be giving up resisting either.
As for JCD, lol I love the simplification of the situation, "sitting quietly, with no indication of a bomb about his person"... all very well but intelligence said otherwise, and they were acting on orders. Thats like holding the soldier who "invaded" Iraq personally responsible for every death as there were no WMD's after all.
This guy was causing trouble to have got the attention of the police in the first place, and should have done as he was told. Surely 2 coppers wrestling with you on the ground is a good indicator to give up and put your arms behind your back?
G00ner, spot on mate
Les, it would not really draw parallels to JCD's death and this. Very different circumstances.
While its forceful, they did NOT have control of him. If he was cuffed and being tasered then fair enough. All he had to do was put his arms behind his back, is that so hard?
The thumping happens a lot, and I believe part of certain training.
He did not appear to be trying to escape, but he also didnt appear to be giving up resisting either.
As for JCD, lol I love the simplification of the situation, "sitting quietly, with no indication of a bomb about his person"... all very well but intelligence said otherwise, and they were acting on orders. Thats like holding the soldier who "invaded" Iraq personally responsible for every death as there were no WMD's after all.
This guy was causing trouble to have got the attention of the police in the first place, and should have done as he was told. Surely 2 coppers wrestling with you on the ground is a good indicator to give up and put your arms behind your back?
When it comes to De Menezes, the police said at first that he was running onto the underground station and that he vaulted the barriers. The truth was that he walked to his train stopping to buy a newsaper on the way! Why were we told that lie?
The clothing De Menezes was wearing was light and would not conceal a bomb on his person. He was indeed sitting quite normally on the train when they shot him in the head and then proceeded to shoot him another 6 times while he was on the ground. They all had a go in fact! Why was that necessary?
Can you blame people for thinking that the coppers had a blood lust on them? In both cases! We have had other cases in the recent past when they have shot to kill people who were obviously not about to shoot anyone!
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 17 June 2009 at 11:13 AM.
17 June 2009, 11:39 AM
#54
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Wouldn't it be handy if someone had actually seen the full incident log...
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
Oh wait - I have!
The guy was being arrested on grounds of inflicting grievous bodily harm - that's more than just slapping someone. Think more along the lines of a serious glassing to the face or breaking limbs.
He failed to comply with the comands and was escalating his violence towards the officers.
The cops followed the correct procedure, you can even here them using tacticle communication when dealing with him.
Even once on the ground, he failed to comply with the commands given and failed to drop the item in his hand.
We are trained that if someone has a blade of any sort, we are to keep using force until the culprit goes limp and is secured.
I don't expect any of you to actually care that things were done correctly, but hey, imagine if it'd been your wife/sister/brother etc who he'd just inflicted a severe and serious injury upon. You'd not be happy if we just let him get away. Plus after inflicyting such a vicuos attack, who's to say he wouldn't have gone on to do the same to more of the general public?
---Edited by the webteam----
I have been done for gbh, and all i did was cut as guys lip open with one punch, he woke up on the floor admittedley, but it was a cut lip, nothing more, i got loads of those at school and it never bothered me!
Just cos he was "suspected of gbh" doesnt mean he will start knifing the arresting coppers, your just using that as an excuse for the "i have a new taser and havent used it yet" tools to try out their new toy!
Tactical communication, STFU dont make me laugh, and he wasnt resisting much at all, so thats thst excuse out the window as well, and he didnt have a knife on him did he? NO, so thats that excuse fcuked as well.
What was this "severe and serious injury" he had just inflicted, was there even an injury at all? i doubt it!
And if someone did injure a member of my family, as you put it, i wouldnt call the pigs, i would just do him over my self!
Basically stop trying to find excuses and "prceedures" that justify what those four spineless glorified tax collectors did to one guy, they went over the top, END OF!
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 18 June 2009 at 12:49 PM. Reason: Less of the insults please
17 June 2009, 11:42 AM
#55
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Indeed - I don't have much sympathy for the guy IF he is guilty.
Thing is - last time I checked we had Courts , Juries and Judges for that - not overweight ninjas.
hmmmm - maybe I could be a copper - I'm overweight have a short fuse and love a good scrap - where do I sign up.
Thing is - last time I checked we had Courts , Juries and Judges for that - not overweight ninjas
.hmmmm - maybe I could be a copper - I'm overweight have a short fuse and love a good scrap - where do I sign up.
17 June 2009, 11:45 AM
#56
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Jasey, I believe in one of the reports it says he was identified to the police by the doormen at the pub he had committed the offence in.[/QUOTE]
I know a few doormen, and i have seen them identify people to the feds who have pissed them off in the club that night, nothing to do with the offence involved, it was just to give the anoyee some police hassle!
I know a few doormen, and i have seen them identify people to the feds who have pissed them off in the club that night, nothing to do with the offence involved, it was just to give the anoyee some police hassle!
17 June 2009, 12:27 PM
#57
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This (below) is EXACTLY why the officers had to detain this person.. people think tasers and CS are "magic" and stop people fighting... the number of people who get CS'd and then never make it into custody is quite alarming, and on the whole these tend to be people wanted for a crime so they really need to be detained.
YouTube - Man Gets Tazed, Mocks Cops, and Gets Away
17 June 2009, 12:48 PM
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Another clear cut case of "them that do, and them that dont".. In this case, its "like the police"
I would love to see some of the SN members handle that arrest any differently. And also wish "them that dont" would look at the video properly and stop talking bull**** about the police punching him in the head
17 June 2009, 12:55 PM
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There is your answer.
The reason for the warrent is not always going to be told to the officers, esecially if its just been give as a status check.
While he has a right to know the details, being detained is going to be their first thing to do. Thn maybe they can get more info for him.
PS he is also deluded!
17 June 2009, 12:56 PM
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Jeez there are some trolls on this thread. Fact of the matter is no one knows what happened before hand or if the chap had anything in his hand still. Its always the same with these videos that you see them mid conflict to cause such an uproar.
The first part of that clip on the BBC site says prior to this a police officer was assaulted and required hospital treatment.
The cops restrain the chap and dont give him a beating other than one cop was clearly punching his arm after previously trying to get him to release his arm.
Do you really think cops are that dumb to do anything untoward with so many witnesses and someone shouting this is going on Youtube. Give me a break.
Simon
The first part of that clip on the BBC site says prior to this a police officer was assaulted and required hospital treatment.
The cops restrain the chap and dont give him a beating other than one cop was clearly punching his arm after previously trying to get him to release his arm.
Do you really think cops are that dumb to do anything untoward with so many witnesses and someone shouting this is going on Youtube. Give me a break.
Simon