Muslims
09 August 2009, 01:22 PM
#151
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les
10 August 2009, 10:43 PM
#156
Scooby Senior
Absolutley, I don't believe in unicorns, Zuess, Thor, Father Christmas, the Boogey Man etc. for reasons you well understand. Perhaps you could enlighten me on the difference between them and God?
Yeah yeah, so do I the other way round, we all know people who have done what we would have and then used it to back up our argument, it's a human failing. However, I don't look to the media for my information, let's be honest, they don't talk about it much anyway. Church attendance and polls about the belief in a God show that numbers of believing are falling. If you deny that then you are fooling yourself. 200 years ago, anyone who didn't believe was in a very small minority, yet now, barely half the UK population believe there is a god.
So, despite some people who you know who have gone against the grain, the trend is towards non-belief. I wonder why that is.......
Geezer
Yeah yeah, so do I the other way round, we all know people who have done what we would have and then used it to back up our argument, it's a human failing. However, I don't look to the media for my information, let's be honest, they don't talk about it much anyway. Church attendance and polls about the belief in a God show that numbers of believing are falling. If you deny that then you are fooling yourself. 200 years ago, anyone who didn't believe was in a very small minority, yet now, barely half the UK population believe there is a god.
So, despite some people who you know who have gone against the grain, the trend is towards non-belief. I wonder why that is.......
Geezer
and 200yrs ago, kids had respect for their elders and other people.
now we have kids who have no respect for their own parents let along others, we also have kids/youths beating up old ladies etc and any other sick 'crime' you can read in any national/local newspaper any day of the week.
the question that should be asked is, has the down turn in religon been the turning point on how the youth of today have turned out?
the fastest growing religon is muslin. why?
does following a relgion contribute to a better alround up bringing of respect for others, (excluding the extremists in any religon).
and yes, I attend church, I've been baptised, I got married in church and if we have kids nodoubt will have them Christened too, as I feel there is nothing wrong with giving your kids a good moral grounding.... and the principles of the ten commandments are a rather good way to live your life!!
10 August 2009, 11:09 PM
#157
and 200yrs ago, kids had respect for their elders and other people.
now we have kids who have no respect for their own parents let along others, we also have kids/youths beating up old ladies etc and any other sick 'crime' you can read in any national/local newspaper any day of the week.
now we have kids who have no respect for their own parents let along others, we also have kids/youths beating up old ladies etc and any other sick 'crime' you can read in any national/local newspaper any day of the week.
Work houses, gangs, ******, plagues, mass poverty, no sanitation, famine, mass immigration (nothing new there
), with crime and violence at epidemic levels, and that was just London! Children being no exception - child criminals as young as eight years were hung for their crimes....How does the courts see an eight year old child these days?
I don't know how that translates to religion. Moreso social order and fundamentals being passed down generations; it only needs to be skipped by one generation for it to be lost on every subsequent generation of that family. Religion, schools, family and law (and the media these days) all have their part giving children the correct morals to live their life by.
10 August 2009, 11:19 PM
#158
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cas Vegas
Posts: 60,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, but apart from the welfare state, organised policing, cheap prophylactics, efficient healthcare, virtual abolition of extreme poverty, excellent sewerage systems, modern food production methods and a continuing crap immigration system, what have the Romans ever done for us?
11 August 2009, 12:39 AM
#159
Yes, but apart from the welfare state, organised policing, cheap prophylactics, efficient healthcare, virtual abolition of extreme poverty, excellent sewerage systems, modern food production methods and a continuing crap immigration system, what have the Romans ever done for us?
11 August 2009, 08:31 AM
#160
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and 200yrs ago, kids had respect for their elders and other people.
now we have kids who have no respect for their own parents let along others, we also have kids/youths beating up old ladies etc and any other sick 'crime' you can read in any national/local newspaper any day of the week.
the question that should be asked is, has the down turn in religon been the turning point on how the youth of today have turned out?
the fastest growing religon is muslin. why?
does following a relgion contribute to a better alround up bringing of respect for others, (excluding the extremists in any religon).
and yes, I attend church, I've been baptised, I got married in church and if we have kids nodoubt will have them Christened too, as I feel there is nothing wrong with giving your kids a good moral grounding.... and the principles of the ten commandments are a rather good way to live your life!!
now we have kids who have no respect for their own parents let along others, we also have kids/youths beating up old ladies etc and any other sick 'crime' you can read in any national/local newspaper any day of the week.
the question that should be asked is, has the down turn in religon been the turning point on how the youth of today have turned out?
the fastest growing religon is muslin. why?
does following a relgion contribute to a better alround up bringing of respect for others, (excluding the extremists in any religon).
and yes, I attend church, I've been baptised, I got married in church and if we have kids nodoubt will have them Christened too, as I feel there is nothing wrong with giving your kids a good moral grounding.... and the principles of the ten commandments are a rather good way to live your life!!
Religion kept everyone in check by fear and oppression, fancy a return to that?
Geezer
Morals are not the preserve of religion.
11 August 2009, 08:43 AM
#161
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am with Geezer on this one. Even those who say it was better 40-50 years ago, to my mind, are being nostalgic rather than realistic.
Of course summers were longer and hotter then, and people were happier, and everyone had a job and prosperity...
...and an outside toilet, and San Izal toilet paper, and no-one chased peadophiles because of course it couldn't happen, and it was OK to hit your wife and in most African countries it was OK knock a few blacks about if you felt the need, and slavery was even more rife there than it is today and 50% of the Indian population lived below the calorific poverty line (still nearly 30% today, still an improvement)...
Of course summers were longer and hotter then, and people were happier, and everyone had a job and prosperity...
...and an outside toilet, and San Izal toilet paper, and no-one chased peadophiles because of course it couldn't happen, and it was OK to hit your wife and in most African countries it was OK knock a few blacks about if you felt the need, and slavery was even more rife there than it is today and 50% of the Indian population lived below the calorific poverty line (still nearly 30% today, still an improvement)...
11 August 2009, 08:59 AM
#162
Scooby Regular
i've posted about this mythical "ooh it was better 20 years ago" rubbish
i,m old enough to remember 20 years ago, and it wasn't and they were still saying it then too
i,m old enough to remember 20 years ago, and it wasn't and they were still saying it then too
11 August 2009, 09:13 AM
#163
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Class record holder at Pembrey Llandow Goodwood MIRA Hethel Blyton Curborough Lydden and Snetterton
Posts: 8,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was better 20 years ago. I was in Uni having the time of my life
Those were the days etc
Those were the days etc
11 August 2009, 01:00 PM
#165
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am with Geezer on this one. Even those who say it was better 40-50 years ago, to my mind, are being nostalgic rather than realistic.
Of course summers were longer and hotter then, and people were happier, and everyone had a job and prosperity...
...and an outside toilet, and San Izal toilet paper, and no-one chased peadophiles because of course it couldn't happen, and it was OK to hit your wife and in most African countries it was OK knock a few blacks about if you felt the need, and slavery was even more rife there than it is today and 50% of the Indian population lived below the calorific poverty line (still nearly 30% today, still an improvement)...
Of course summers were longer and hotter then, and people were happier, and everyone had a job and prosperity...
...and an outside toilet, and San Izal toilet paper, and no-one chased peadophiles because of course it couldn't happen, and it was OK to hit your wife and in most African countries it was OK knock a few blacks about if you felt the need, and slavery was even more rife there than it is today and 50% of the Indian population lived below the calorific poverty line (still nearly 30% today, still an improvement)...
Summers were pretty similar to what we see now, sunny and rainy days, sometimes hot but mostly warm. Some country properties did have outside toilets but not that many. San Izal paper was not too bad but my grandad was in the habit of cutting the newspaper into squares to save money! Generally however-"Bronco" ruled! Of course there were paedophiles, I remember being propositioned three times but luckily they were frightened of being caught and ran away when told what for! Not very pleasant but at least they were not disposed to murder you! It was certainly not accepted to hit one's wife and not much of that happened either, there would have been too much shame attached to being found out for a start. Hitting a women was beyond the pale! There were a goodly number of black people in the country and they were accepted and treated in a polite and fair manner. Quite a bit of intermarriage too. Most of the problems caused to black people was caused by other black people, inter tribal fighting was rife with deadly results. White rule in the African countries meant that local people were generally better off all round. Of course India was a poor country, but this country was pretty short as well while recovering from WW2.
The main difference was that of peoples' attitudes to others and the fact that you always had good neighbours who would look out for each other. That was an accepted requirement of those times.
Your description was short on fact and unfair.
Les
11 August 2009, 02:30 PM
#166
Scooby Regular
Apparently contrary to popular belief the crime rate during the blitz increased dramatically
Certainly whatever the truth actually is -- it probably differs from current public perception of halcyon days of neighbourly love
Certainly whatever the truth actually is -- it probably differs from current public perception of halcyon days of neighbourly love
11 August 2009, 03:01 PM
#167
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where did you get all this information Trout, were you there?
Summers were pretty similar to what we see now, sunny and rainy days, sometimes hot but mostly warm. Some country properties did have outside toilets but not that many. San Izal paper was not too bad but my grandad was in the habit of cutting the newspaper into squares to save money! Generally however-"Bronco" ruled! Of course there were paedophiles, I remember being propositioned three times but luckily they were frightened of being caught and ran away when told what for! Not very pleasant but at least they were not disposed to murder you! It was certainly not accepted to hit one's wife and not much of that happened either, there would have been too much shame attached to being found out for a start. Hitting a women was beyond the pale! There were a goodly number of black people in the country and they were accepted and treated in a polite and fair manner. Quite a bit of intermarriage too. Most of the problems caused to black people was caused by other black people, inter tribal fighting was rife with deadly results. White rule in the African countries meant that local people were generally better off all round. Of course India was a poor country, but this country was pretty short as well while recovering from WW2.
The main difference was that of peoples' attitudes to others and the fact that you always had good neighbours who would look out for each other. That was an accepted requirement of those times.
Your description was short on fact and unfair.
Les
Summers were pretty similar to what we see now, sunny and rainy days, sometimes hot but mostly warm. Some country properties did have outside toilets but not that many. San Izal paper was not too bad but my grandad was in the habit of cutting the newspaper into squares to save money! Generally however-"Bronco" ruled! Of course there were paedophiles, I remember being propositioned three times but luckily they were frightened of being caught and ran away when told what for! Not very pleasant but at least they were not disposed to murder you! It was certainly not accepted to hit one's wife and not much of that happened either, there would have been too much shame attached to being found out for a start. Hitting a women was beyond the pale! There were a goodly number of black people in the country and they were accepted and treated in a polite and fair manner. Quite a bit of intermarriage too. Most of the problems caused to black people was caused by other black people, inter tribal fighting was rife with deadly results. White rule in the African countries meant that local people were generally better off all round. Of course India was a poor country, but this country was pretty short as well while recovering from WW2.
The main difference was that of peoples' attitudes to others and the fact that you always had good neighbours who would look out for each other. That was an accepted requirement of those times.
Your description was short on fact and unfair.
Les
When I posted I was being a little, but not entirely, tongue in cheek. Your response however which I presume is not tongue in cheek leaves me completely flabbergasted.
For starters, a lot of inner city and houses oop North in the dozens of pit villages had outside toilets in the 50s. And like your grandad probably had cut up newspaper as well. The two up, two downs with their little back yards. There are thousands of them. This was not just restricted to country houses. And in the 1991 census there were still 78,000 households still dependent on an outside toilet.
In terms of child murder, facts would indicate is no more likely today than it ever has been. If anything it is slightly less likely and the death rate of children at the hands of others has remained fairly constant for twenty years.
Regarding child abuse - the number of cases amongst people of our age and older that are only just surfacing. Perhaps most obviously, but not directly on the mainland are the literally hundreds of cases under review of systemic abuse right across Ireland. There are plenty of similar stories, at least individually if not collectively here in the UK. You tell me what establishment systems were in place to protect children at risk compared to today. I am sure the systems today could be more effective and less intrusive, but at least there are systems. There is also research indicating that incest was far more common in the first half of the 20th century than the second. Mostly because the abused did not know who they could turn to for protection and accepted it as the norm.
For women in the 50s and 60s I would love to hear from you how many husbands were prosecuted for beating their wives compared to today. Or how many womens refuges there were to protect the women. The majority of women just had to accept it.
I find your final comment intolerable. Who are you to say that Africa was better off under white rule? I presume by better off you mean the exploitation, enslavement, ritual and systemic abuse including subjugation and rape at the hands of the Europeans.
Africa is to our 'civilised' eyes a tribal, war-ing, objectional place with many of things the whites led under the auspices of beneficent leadership - but at least it is theirs and who are we to judge.
I am sure if Hitler had won the war there would be a bunch of Ayrians sitting in Berlin today gloating how much better off we Brits would be under German rule. I am sure neither you nor I would be inclined to agree.
Last edited by Trout; 11 August 2009 at 04:13 PM.
11 August 2009, 05:18 PM
#168
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How do folk know stuff like that?!
11 August 2009, 05:21 PM
#169
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Google is your friend 
PS I know I got a bit carried away but reactionary bollocks just drives me nuts!!!
PS I know I got a bit carried away but reactionary bollocks just drives me nuts!!!
Last edited by Trout; 11 August 2009 at 05:22 PM.
11 August 2009, 08:24 PM
#170
Scooby Senior
12 August 2009, 03:13 PM
#171
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les,
When I posted I was being a little, but not entirely, tongue in cheek. Your response however which I presume is not tongue in cheek leaves me completely flabbergasted.
For starters, a lot of inner city and houses oop North in the dozens of pit villages had outside toilets in the 50s. And like your grandad probably had cut up newspaper as well. The two up, two downs with their little back yards. There are thousands of them. This was not just restricted to country houses. And in the 1991 census there were still 78,000 households still dependent on an outside toilet.
In terms of child murder, facts would indicate is no more likely today than it ever has been. If anything it is slightly less likely and the death rate of children at the hands of others has remained fairly constant for twenty years.
Regarding child abuse - the number of cases amongst people of our age and older that are only just surfacing. Perhaps most obviously, but not directly on the mainland are the literally hundreds of cases under review of systemic abuse right across Ireland. There are plenty of similar stories, at least individually if not collectively here in the UK. You tell me what establishment systems were in place to protect children at risk compared to today. I am sure the systems today could be more effective and less intrusive, but at least there are systems. There is also research indicating that incest was far more common in the first half of the 20th century than the second. Mostly because the abused did not know who they could turn to for protection and accepted it as the norm.
For women in the 50s and 60s I would love to hear from you how many husbands were prosecuted for beating their wives compared to today. Or how many womens refuges there were to protect the women. The majority of women just had to accept it.
I find your final comment intolerable. Who are you to say that Africa was better off under white rule? I presume by better off you mean the exploitation, enslavement, ritual and systemic abuse including subjugation and rape at the hands of the Europeans.
Africa is to our 'civilised' eyes a tribal, war-ing, objectional place with many of things the whites led under the auspices of beneficent leadership - but at least it is theirs and who are we to judge.
I am sure if Hitler had won the war there would be a bunch of Ayrians sitting in Berlin today gloating how much better off we Brits would be under German rule. I am sure neither you nor I would be inclined to agree.
When I posted I was being a little, but not entirely, tongue in cheek. Your response however which I presume is not tongue in cheek leaves me completely flabbergasted.
For starters, a lot of inner city and houses oop North in the dozens of pit villages had outside toilets in the 50s. And like your grandad probably had cut up newspaper as well. The two up, two downs with their little back yards. There are thousands of them. This was not just restricted to country houses. And in the 1991 census there were still 78,000 households still dependent on an outside toilet.
In terms of child murder, facts would indicate is no more likely today than it ever has been. If anything it is slightly less likely and the death rate of children at the hands of others has remained fairly constant for twenty years.
Regarding child abuse - the number of cases amongst people of our age and older that are only just surfacing. Perhaps most obviously, but not directly on the mainland are the literally hundreds of cases under review of systemic abuse right across Ireland. There are plenty of similar stories, at least individually if not collectively here in the UK. You tell me what establishment systems were in place to protect children at risk compared to today. I am sure the systems today could be more effective and less intrusive, but at least there are systems. There is also research indicating that incest was far more common in the first half of the 20th century than the second. Mostly because the abused did not know who they could turn to for protection and accepted it as the norm.
For women in the 50s and 60s I would love to hear from you how many husbands were prosecuted for beating their wives compared to today. Or how many womens refuges there were to protect the women. The majority of women just had to accept it.
I find your final comment intolerable. Who are you to say that Africa was better off under white rule? I presume by better off you mean the exploitation, enslavement, ritual and systemic abuse including subjugation and rape at the hands of the Europeans.
Africa is to our 'civilised' eyes a tribal, war-ing, objectional place with many of things the whites led under the auspices of beneficent leadership - but at least it is theirs and who are we to judge.
I am sure if Hitler had won the war there would be a bunch of Ayrians sitting in Berlin today gloating how much better off we Brits would be under German rule. I am sure neither you nor I would be inclined to agree.
I don't have figures for outside toilets since that is so important to you , but 78K is not such a high number in relation to the total population in 1991 anyway.
When it comes to child abuse, I have no figures for that but I don't remember the sort of vicious cases that we have seen in recent years. In those years the family was a strong unit and people used to make their marriages continue to work even under difficult circumstances all for the sake of the children. These days the children seem to be a secondary consideration. Parents used to consider it most important to bring up their children to be polite and thoughtful for others. If they strayed then not only were the teachers empowered to discipline them but the parents would also do the same thing to ensure they thought twice next time. There used to be a sense of shame in those days. What do we see now Trout? What is the percentage of children now who are incorrigible and do their parents care anyway? Children from broken homes or parents who don't care about them anyway don't have a fair chance and they have not had the sort of upbringing that they deserve. What is the answer?
Yes we now have all these services which are established to monitor children and protect them. How much trust do you put in the competence of the people concerned after the sort of circumstances we have seen just recently?
I don't know how many wives were beaten by their husbands, but I don't remember any significant numbers of cases. the thought of a man hitting a woman was anathema in those days.
As far as incest is concerned, once again I don't remember any publicity about such heinous activities. It may well have happened, I have never said that everyone was innocent in the way they lived their lives. It does of course still happen now.
Talking of white rule in Africa, it has often been said the the worst atrocities on Africans have been committed by fellow Africans. There are enough examples in modern times as before, and of course the glaring example is Zimbabwe. I think all I need say is, what answer do you think you would get if you went around asking the citizens whether they would prefer to be under Ian Smith's government or that nice man in charge at the moment? Of course they want their own democratic government but how badly were they off under Smith in comparison? I don't remember him sending the military bully boys around.
I do of course decry apartheid absolutely and I admire Mandela absolutely in his fight against that. He was indeed treated shamefully and he is an honest man.
In an ideal world African countries would all have their own successful governments, fully democratic, and no obsessive and murderous tribal rivalries.
What did you think of Idi Amin by the way?
The point you made about Hitler and Aryans is just not accurate as far as your comparison goes.
Les
12 August 2009, 05:18 PM
#173
I dont remember many child murders when i was a kid but we did not have the media we have today to report on it. And it is only over the last 10 years or so that these crimes have began to come to light due to the advanced forensics we have today. It seems to me that these sort of crimes have been pretty prevalent all along. Just mho
12 August 2009, 05:57 PM
#174
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Class record holder at Pembrey Llandow Goodwood MIRA Hethel Blyton Curborough Lydden and Snetterton
Posts: 8,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I was a kid they didn't tell you about the child murders on Newsround or in the Beano!
12 August 2009, 08:21 PM
#175
Scooby Senior
when did people stop leaving their front doors unlocked/open?
12 August 2009, 08:39 PM
#176
No idea. Do people really think things getting 'worse' is down to whether people are religious or not?
If we talk in the shortish term, I'd have thought it was more down to punishments being softer, far less discipline, scum breeding scum, the benefits culture etc.
I'd have thought even a few decades ago, things weren't rosy (maybe brushed under the carpet or not known about), but even in my growing up years, I'd say things have become worse. Whether that is anything to do with religion, I'm unsure. Even say 50 years ago, far from everyone was religious, but maybe people just had more respect for others generally. There has been social breakdown, which will keep getting worse, if not tackled, and I don't think we are all going to turn to God, so a different approach may be needed.
If we talk in the shortish term, I'd have thought it was more down to punishments being softer, far less discipline, scum breeding scum, the benefits culture etc.
I'd have thought even a few decades ago, things weren't rosy (maybe brushed under the carpet or not known about), but even in my growing up years, I'd say things have become worse. Whether that is anything to do with religion, I'm unsure. Even say 50 years ago, far from everyone was religious, but maybe people just had more respect for others generally. There has been social breakdown, which will keep getting worse, if not tackled, and I don't think we are all going to turn to God, so a different approach may be needed.
12 August 2009, 09:54 PM
#177
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cas Vegas
Posts: 60,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12 August 2009, 10:53 PM
#178
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am no fan of Idi Amin but you should not forget he was probably there because of the British and at least initially was a friend of the British state. Better the devil you know. So much for our excellent stewardship of the African 'nation'!
I think it is fantastic that you have had such great early years in your life and am sorry that you think things have got worse.
My belief is that people are more self-actualised, people do have much higher expectations now and people can be more selfish, but overall I feel we are also advancing as a civilisation and if we did not have growing pains then there would be no growth.
I for one would never want to return to the Ransome/Blyton-esque rose tinted past - I much prefer the opportunity and advancement of life today and my expectations for the future.
Trout
12 August 2009, 10:53 PM
#179
Scooby Senior
No idea. Do people really think things getting 'worse' is down to whether people are religious or not?
If we talk in the shortish term, I'd have thought it was more down to punishments being softer, far less discipline, scum breeding scum, the benefits culture etc.
I'd have thought even a few decades ago, things weren't rosy (maybe brushed under the carpet or not known about), but even in my growing up years, I'd say things have become worse. Whether that is anything to do with religion, I'm unsure. Even say 50 years ago, far from everyone was religious, but maybe people just had more respect for others generally. There has been social breakdown, which will keep getting worse, if not tackled, and I don't think we are all going to turn to God, so a different approach may be needed.
If we talk in the shortish term, I'd have thought it was more down to punishments being softer, far less discipline, scum breeding scum, the benefits culture etc.
I'd have thought even a few decades ago, things weren't rosy (maybe brushed under the carpet or not known about), but even in my growing up years, I'd say things have become worse. Whether that is anything to do with religion, I'm unsure. Even say 50 years ago, far from everyone was religious, but maybe people just had more respect for others generally. There has been social breakdown, which will keep getting worse, if not tackled, and I don't think we are all going to turn to God, so a different approach may be needed.
no one gets married anymore and everyone being dependent on the government for benifits etc etc etc etc.
: