*****MY00******* ECUTEK MUST READ
15 March 2002, 11:02 PM
#31
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Hi Chris,
The earlier Subaru ECUs contained mask programmed ROM that could not be changed. When mapped, additional boards were added to contain external ROM. This is not the same as a piggyback ECU, which just 'interferes' with the standard ECU. The original ROM was copied into external chips, plus any mods that were required. Just as effective as the 99/00 upgrades, though more time consuming, since it involves delicate soldering.
Hi Jason,
How's things ?
Cheers
Steve
The earlier Subaru ECUs contained mask programmed ROM that could not be changed. When mapped, additional boards were added to contain external ROM. This is not the same as a piggyback ECU, which just 'interferes' with the standard ECU. The original ROM was copied into external chips, plus any mods that were required. Just as effective as the 99/00 upgrades, though more time consuming, since it involves delicate soldering.
Hi Jason,
How's things ?
Cheers
Steve
16 March 2002, 09:48 PM
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Hi Stephen,
Going very well........
Just back from Bolney, so another 100miles. The last 350miles on the Ecutek Delta Dash have been amazing. Car seems to be getting better all the time....
Next the software to monitor..
J
Going very well........
Just back from Bolney, so another 100miles. The last 350miles on the Ecutek Delta Dash have been amazing. Car seems to be getting better all the time....
Next the software to monitor..
J
17 March 2002, 11:04 AM
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Stephen,
I have a couple of questions after having a look at your amazing site.
1. Since all maps are 2 dimensional, what role does MAF play? In fuelling for example you have rpm vs load and as you say the ECU goes further and interpolates to match the exact rpm value. Am I right to say then that the MAF is only used to slightly correct fuelling? And if yes to what extent? Say 5 out of 255 (in HEX?)
2. There were questions raised concerning the usage of MAP in fuelling calculations. Is it absolutely certain that the MAP is only used for boost control and NOT in fuelling calculations? Is it then "safe" to interfere with MAP signals? (safe in terms of raising boost just before the fuel cut off and assuming that fuelling is adequate)
3. Have you created your own maps by changing the boost achieve and fuelling matrices?
Thanks in advance
Dimitris.
I have a couple of questions after having a look at your amazing site.
1. Since all maps are 2 dimensional, what role does MAF play? In fuelling for example you have rpm vs load and as you say the ECU goes further and interpolates to match the exact rpm value. Am I right to say then that the MAF is only used to slightly correct fuelling? And if yes to what extent? Say 5 out of 255 (in HEX?)
2. There were questions raised concerning the usage of MAP in fuelling calculations. Is it absolutely certain that the MAP is only used for boost control and NOT in fuelling calculations? Is it then "safe" to interfere with MAP signals? (safe in terms of raising boost just before the fuel cut off and assuming that fuelling is adequate)
3. Have you created your own maps by changing the boost achieve and fuelling matrices?
Thanks in advance
Dimitris.
17 March 2002, 12:35 PM
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Hi Dimitris,
>1. Since all maps are 2 dimensional, what role does MAF play? In
>fuelling for example you have rpm vs load and as you say the ECU
>goes further and interpolates to match the exact rpm value. Am I >right to say then that the MAF is only used to slightly correct
>fuelling? And if yes to what extent? Say 5 out of 255 (in HEX?)
>
I think you're confusing MAF with MAP. MAF is mass air flow. MAP is Manifold absolute pressure. Air flow is what the load value is largely based on. Two good books to read on mapping & engine management: Haynes Engine Management by Dave Walker & 21st Century Performance by Julian Edgar - I don't really want to go into detail on the net - it takes too long. Plus I'm not the tuning expert - I just wrote the software to allow it.
>2. There were questions raised concerning the usage of MAP in
>fuelling calculations. Is it absolutely certain that the MAP is
>only used for boost control and NOT in fuelling calculations? Is
>it then "safe" to interfere with MAP signals? (safe in terms of
>raising boost just before the fuel cut off and assuming that
>fuelling is adequate)
>
People do it and get away with it, but it's obviously not ideal.
If the ECU sees knock, it has the option to reduce the boost and stop the engine killing itself. If you remove its ability to control its own boost, I think you're asking for trouble.
>3. Have you created your own maps by changing the boost achieve
>and fuelling matrices?
>
Yes. For my car, we filled in a large lean sport caused by my GGR K&N/STI induction kit - that pulled the torque 500RPM left. We altered the boost mapping on Jason May's car to reduce the overboost that he was getting due to his free flowing exhaust. We also raised his rev limit by 100RPM just to prove a point.
Cheers
Steve
>1. Since all maps are 2 dimensional, what role does MAF play? In
>fuelling for example you have rpm vs load and as you say the ECU
>goes further and interpolates to match the exact rpm value. Am I >right to say then that the MAF is only used to slightly correct
>fuelling? And if yes to what extent? Say 5 out of 255 (in HEX?)
>
I think you're confusing MAF with MAP. MAF is mass air flow. MAP is Manifold absolute pressure. Air flow is what the load value is largely based on. Two good books to read on mapping & engine management: Haynes Engine Management by Dave Walker & 21st Century Performance by Julian Edgar - I don't really want to go into detail on the net - it takes too long. Plus I'm not the tuning expert - I just wrote the software to allow it.
>2. There were questions raised concerning the usage of MAP in
>fuelling calculations. Is it absolutely certain that the MAP is
>only used for boost control and NOT in fuelling calculations? Is
>it then "safe" to interfere with MAP signals? (safe in terms of
>raising boost just before the fuel cut off and assuming that
>fuelling is adequate)
>
People do it and get away with it, but it's obviously not ideal.
If the ECU sees knock, it has the option to reduce the boost and stop the engine killing itself. If you remove its ability to control its own boost, I think you're asking for trouble.
>3. Have you created your own maps by changing the boost achieve
>and fuelling matrices?
>
Yes. For my car, we filled in a large lean sport caused by my GGR K&N/STI induction kit - that pulled the torque 500RPM left. We altered the boost mapping on Jason May's car to reduce the overboost that he was getting due to his free flowing exhaust. We also raised his rev limit by 100RPM just to prove a point.
Cheers
Steve
17 March 2002, 12:46 PM
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Stephen,
I am not confusing MAF with MAP.
I just thought that the term "load" was related only to throtle position. Where does the throtle input come into play then?
[Edited by dmel - 3/17/2002 12:53:27 PM]
I am not confusing MAF with MAP.
I just thought that the term "load" was related only to throtle position. Where does the throtle input come into play then?
[Edited by dmel - 3/17/2002 12:53:27 PM]
17 March 2002, 01:29 PM
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Steven,
Great break through....
Couple of things. You normally have to add in the injector "ramp time", when working out/converting to idc %. This can add circa 1ms to the "mapped/logged" ipw, depending on the injector spec'.
The graphs you link to would be a little easier to compare if they used the same scaling for bhp v torque, and also from graph to graph, so that bhp/ftlbs cross at 5252 rpm.
Apart from that, the results are very impressive, and should offer a much more economical alternative to replacement ecu's, within the limitations of the MAF sensor.
Mark.
Great break through....
Couple of things. You normally have to add in the injector "ramp time", when working out/converting to idc %. This can add circa 1ms to the "mapped/logged" ipw, depending on the injector spec'.
The graphs you link to would be a little easier to compare if they used the same scaling for bhp v torque, and also from graph to graph, so that bhp/ftlbs cross at 5252 rpm.
Apart from that, the results are very impressive, and should offer a much more economical alternative to replacement ecu's, within the limitations of the MAF sensor.
Mark.
17 March 2002, 06:19 PM
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for the kind words. There was a P1 at PE yesterday with 340 BHP, fuelling well. It has the same MAF sensor I believe, so there's scope for the measly UK'ers like me :-)
Cheers
Steve
Thanks for the kind words. There was a P1 at PE yesterday with 340 BHP, fuelling well. It has the same MAF sensor I believe, so there's scope for the measly UK'ers like me :-)
Cheers
Steve
17 March 2002, 06:57 PM
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P1 with 340 bhp?! Tell me more Steve 
What mods did it have to achieve that may I ask? Was that with any intervention from yourself and Ecutek?
Hmm, 340 bhp. That's more like it!
MS
What mods did it have to achieve that may I ask? Was that with any intervention from yourself and Ecutek?
Hmm, 340 bhp. That's more like it!
MS
17 March 2002, 09:22 PM
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You know, I kept calling it a P1 all day, but it was an STI5. The owner had confused me by sticking 18" P1 wheels on it. I've got my mind on wheelz at the moment, having just ordered some 17" SuperLeggeras (sp?) for mine that day. Anyway...
The car had a boost controller, large injectors & different fuel pump. Plus HKS FMIC, full decat, manifold and a few other goodies.
The guy had been told by his tuner that his ECU had been reprogrammed. I (hopefully) begged to differ, so he brought it in for us to look at - the ECU was bog standard. Well, as standard as STIs go :-) We were offered the chance to alter his map, but declined - the car was pretty close to the limit, and had rather a lot of oil seeping from various areas. The mixture was safely rich (surprise surprise) and the car produced good power. If it aint broke, leave well alone I say.
Steve
The car had a boost controller, large injectors & different fuel pump. Plus HKS FMIC, full decat, manifold and a few other goodies.
The guy had been told by his tuner that his ECU had been reprogrammed. I (hopefully) begged to differ, so he brought it in for us to look at - the ECU was bog standard. Well, as standard as STIs go :-) We were offered the chance to alter his map, but declined - the car was pretty close to the limit, and had rather a lot of oil seeping from various areas. The mixture was safely rich (surprise surprise) and the car produced good power. If it aint broke, leave well alone I say.
Steve
17 March 2002, 09:36 PM
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Hi Dimitri,
I've collectively called the x-axis on these maps load. The values used to lookup the correct column vary depending on the map.
On the boost maps, the load will be largely throttle position, since it wouldn't make sense to change boost according to air flow - it'd be shooting all over the place, since varying the boost varies the air flow.
On the fuel and ignition maps, the load is based on air flow. If you look at the maps on the web site, you'll see that the top right hand corner of each map contains strange data. This is because the car never reaches those zones - high air flow, low rpm.
My car is a little strange. It runs very high air flow, but the measured boost in the manifold isn't that high. However, until I tweaked the map, I was still flying clear off the end of the load zones on fuel and ignition. This basically meant that I ran the same AFR and ignition timing (for a given RPM) from say 80% to 100% of maximum load. Not good.
I've written software that shows real time access of the fuel, ignition and boost maps. Because of this, I have tried to ignore the exact calculations that get used for the columns in preference to actually watching the real life access of the maps as you use the car. You can quickly see when you need to rescale an axis by watching the cursor. I'll put some screenshots up on the web site at some point - I've been a bit busy nailing 288 OBD trouble codes this weekend for the 2001/2002 Impreza. The next thing is to get the software to graphically overlay knock correction and lambda on top of the fuel and ignition maps, so you can instantly see which numbers need changing. I might need a holiday before that. And this time, I'm not taking my laptop !
Cheers
Steve
I've collectively called the x-axis on these maps load. The values used to lookup the correct column vary depending on the map.
On the boost maps, the load will be largely throttle position, since it wouldn't make sense to change boost according to air flow - it'd be shooting all over the place, since varying the boost varies the air flow.
On the fuel and ignition maps, the load is based on air flow. If you look at the maps on the web site, you'll see that the top right hand corner of each map contains strange data. This is because the car never reaches those zones - high air flow, low rpm.
My car is a little strange. It runs very high air flow, but the measured boost in the manifold isn't that high. However, until I tweaked the map, I was still flying clear off the end of the load zones on fuel and ignition. This basically meant that I ran the same AFR and ignition timing (for a given RPM) from say 80% to 100% of maximum load. Not good.
I've written software that shows real time access of the fuel, ignition and boost maps. Because of this, I have tried to ignore the exact calculations that get used for the columns in preference to actually watching the real life access of the maps as you use the car. You can quickly see when you need to rescale an axis by watching the cursor. I'll put some screenshots up on the web site at some point - I've been a bit busy nailing 288 OBD trouble codes this weekend for the 2001/2002 Impreza. The next thing is to get the software to graphically overlay knock correction and lambda on top of the fuel and ignition maps, so you can instantly see which numbers need changing. I might need a holiday before that. And this time, I'm not taking my laptop !
Cheers
Steve
18 March 2002, 07:27 AM
#44
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Thanks very much Stephen. What you said was extremely informative and helpful.
One final point I noticed on the AE780,781 maps and seems strange is that boost achieve is NOT a function of LOAD (i.e. it is essentially a 1-D map).
I always thought that the ECU takes into account the amount of throttle in deciding boost. I know understand that changes of boost at constant RPM and varying trottle are solely based on the fact that varying amounts of exhaust gasses reach the turbine.
Is the above right? Presumambly an Apex'I ACV-R will drastically change part trottle behaviour as it does take into account throttling.
Enjoy you vacation
[Edited by dmel - 3/18/2002 9:19:26 AM]
One final point I noticed on the AE780,781 maps and seems strange is that boost achieve is NOT a function of LOAD (i.e. it is essentially a 1-D map).
I always thought that the ECU takes into account the amount of throttle in deciding boost. I know understand that changes of boost at constant RPM and varying trottle are solely based on the fact that varying amounts of exhaust gasses reach the turbine.
Is the above right? Presumambly an Apex'I ACV-R will drastically change part trottle behaviour as it does take into account throttling.
Enjoy you vacation
[Edited by dmel - 3/18/2002 9:19:26 AM]
18 March 2002, 09:00 AM
#45
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Steven,
It's worth noting, that the STi5 you are referring too, has been highly modified, with HKS FMIC, headers, big injectors, uprated fuel pump, hybrid turbo, etc', etc'.
You can't get 340bhp + from the stock turbo, and the fuel system would need upgrading too.
My AFM comments were really aimed at the few guys that are aiming for 400bhp (there are a few). I'm sure that your software would work well, but believe the AFM would need upgrading.
Mark.
It's worth noting, that the STi5 you are referring too, has been highly modified, with HKS FMIC, headers, big injectors, uprated fuel pump, hybrid turbo, etc', etc'.
You can't get 340bhp + from the stock turbo, and the fuel system would need upgrading too.
My AFM comments were really aimed at the few guys that are aiming for 400bhp (there are a few). I'm sure that your software would work well, but believe the AFM would need upgrading.
Mark.
18 March 2002, 10:59 AM
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Hi Mark,
I agree - it's not going to doo 400BHP. That's kinda out the league of my car, hence I don't really think about it ;-) The ECU has another map that translates MAF voltage into air flow, so you could alter this if need be. Haven't got round to working out injector scaling yet, but I will. That STI5 was a well setup car and produced great figures. I am maxxing out at 80% injector duty for 292BHP, but can't get any more out of my turbo at the moment.
Hi Dimitri,
The 99/00 ECU does have a 2d map, but yes, it's used in 1d form for the 800 and 801. In practise, this feels much better. People describe it as the car feeling more 'eager' than the '802 - the turbo is spinning more and venting what's not used through the dump valve, and is ready for action when the butterfly opens. The only thing the OEM ecu doesn't have is gear dependant boost. But then again, how hard is that to get setup just right ? I could probably do with make my boost more proportional to throttle, since at part throttle, I am dumping huge amounts of air through the wastegate, continuously - and with my induction setup, that's a pretty noisy experience :-)
Cheers
Steve
I agree - it's not going to doo 400BHP. That's kinda out the league of my car, hence I don't really think about it ;-) The ECU has another map that translates MAF voltage into air flow, so you could alter this if need be. Haven't got round to working out injector scaling yet, but I will. That STI5 was a well setup car and produced great figures. I am maxxing out at 80% injector duty for 292BHP, but can't get any more out of my turbo at the moment.
Hi Dimitri,
The 99/00 ECU does have a 2d map, but yes, it's used in 1d form for the 800 and 801. In practise, this feels much better. People describe it as the car feeling more 'eager' than the '802 - the turbo is spinning more and venting what's not used through the dump valve, and is ready for action when the butterfly opens. The only thing the OEM ecu doesn't have is gear dependant boost. But then again, how hard is that to get setup just right ? I could probably do with make my boost more proportional to throttle, since at part throttle, I am dumping huge amounts of air through the wastegate, continuously - and with my induction setup, that's a pretty noisy experience :-)
Cheers
Steve
18 March 2002, 07:48 PM
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I have re sent it think my ntlworld is playing up
this is what it was
Hi Steve,
Been reading with interest your thread on Scoobynet about the ecutek
What I have is a may 2000 euro import (uk spec) Turbo
With K&n 57i induction cone and a full de catted Scoobysport exhaust system (+ big brakes/wheels ect)
I dont have a problem with surging ect but want loads more power and torque
What can you do for me with a re-map
It runs about 0.9 to 1 bar on full boost
I want a safe map but it doesn’t have to be to conservative !!
Oh it’s a green label 802 ECU
Thanks
Tal (Scoobynet)
this is what it was
Hi Steve,
Been reading with interest your thread on Scoobynet about the ecutek
What I have is a may 2000 euro import (uk spec) Turbo
With K&n 57i induction cone and a full de catted Scoobysport exhaust system (+ big brakes/wheels ect)
I dont have a problem with surging ect but want loads more power and torque
What can you do for me with a re-map
It runs about 0.9 to 1 bar on full boost
I want a safe map but it doesn’t have to be to conservative !!
Oh it’s a green label 802 ECU
Thanks
Tal (Scoobynet)
18 March 2002, 10:23 PM
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Tal, remember me ???
You have the same spec car as me, Steve played with mine on the RR and got a perfect map for it as the K@N gave it a few lean spots. He has that map ready for mail order for £150 no vat. Its a bargain, gave my car 268 bhp from 234 and increased the torque by 20 above 3 grand. The car is sooo much better, give PE a call, you wont regret it. Oh and better mpg in the last couple of tanks as well, only by a couple of miles but I have been driving a bit harder, thanks to Steve !!!!LOL
Jase
You have the same spec car as me, Steve played with mine on the RR and got a perfect map for it as the K@N gave it a few lean spots. He has that map ready for mail order for £150 no vat. Its a bargain, gave my car 268 bhp from 234 and increased the torque by 20 above 3 grand. The car is sooo much better, give PE a call, you wont regret it. Oh and better mpg in the last couple of tanks as well, only by a couple of miles but I have been driving a bit harder, thanks to Steve !!!!LOL
Jase
03 October 2002, 06:12 PM
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lordlucan,
I was one of the first (if not the first) to change from a MY00 to a MY99 (AE801) and found the results amazing. Car has been fab for months since.
If you want more power add a Dawes, and you won't believe it
Cheers Phill C
[Edited by babber - 3/10/2002 6:13:16 PM]
I was one of the first (if not the first) to change from a MY00 to a MY99 (AE801) and found the results amazing. Car has been fab for months since.
If you want more power add a Dawes, and you won't believe it
Cheers Phill C
[Edited by babber - 3/10/2002 6:13:16 PM]
03 October 2002, 06:21 PM
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would it be safe to fit a Dawes MBC,if it has benn leaned out slightly up top?,the Dawes allows a good few more psi higher up than the standard set up.
[Edited by T-uk - 3/10/2002 6:22:43 PM]
[Edited by T-uk - 3/10/2002 6:22:43 PM]
03 October 2002, 06:52 PM
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Wow, that is a lot of questions...
I had the lean spot severely on my ae800 with a GGR K&N.
That means that the ae801 will have it too, since they have the same maps.
Jason had it less severely with his smaller K&N an an ae802. He'll email you or post the logs so you can see.
We have another Jason in tomorrow with std induction, so I'll let you all know how that goes.
PE do a swapout for 150+VAT, or you can buy them direct from EcuTek and fit them for yourself for £150, no VAT.
>Also, while I'm here & we're doing the Ecotek thang,
>what sort of state is the new 'Delta' thingy in?
>Last I heard it was coming along nicely, but not yet
>completed.
>
Have a look at www.ecutek.com.
Well it's working well enough to log all this !
All I need to do is add support for all the 2002 trouble codes - there are potentially 268 of them to add, then we're all systems go. If anyone wants to organise a scoobynet bulk buy, let me know - I'm sure we can arrange something good.
>would it be safe to fit a Dawes MBC,
>if it has benn leaned out slightly up top
>
My personal preference is never to add any devices to the car that prevent the ECU from doing what it wants. When the ECU sees knock, it has the option to reduce boost to prevent engine damage. With a Dawes, it doesn't - it must either fuel fully or not at all. Be careful - limp home mode might become push home mode, and that's with any ECU and an external boost controller on high boost. If you want a higher boost curve, get the boost map altered - that's the 'right' way to do it.
Also, Impreza fuel maps are rather clever - they don't specify injector pulse widths. Instead, they specify air/fuel ratios. This is why Imprezas survive so well when we abuse them with external devices. I.e. If you go off the end of the fuelling map (which you definitely will with a boost controller), the AFR is maintained at the point where you flew off the end of the map - more air, more fuel. So long as you don't run out of injector duty of course. I am running 292BHP on std 440cc injectors, and DeltaDash shows that my Injector Duty is hitting a maximum of 80.3% (15.1ms) at 6380 RPM with a boost pressure of 12.7 PSI. If you had set your boost to 18PSI, then you're gonna be dang near to running out of injector capability. If you're gonna wind your boost up, log what's going on, then you know when to get some mates in the back to help you push it home :-)
Back to trouble codes...
Cheers
Steve
(edited to correct boost from 15.1 to 12.7 PSI)
[Edited by StephenDone - 3/10/2002 10:06:33 PM]
I had the lean spot severely on my ae800 with a GGR K&N.
That means that the ae801 will have it too, since they have the same maps.
Jason had it less severely with his smaller K&N an an ae802. He'll email you or post the logs so you can see.
We have another Jason in tomorrow with std induction, so I'll let you all know how that goes.
PE do a swapout for 150+VAT, or you can buy them direct from EcuTek and fit them for yourself for £150, no VAT.
>Also, while I'm here & we're doing the Ecotek thang,
>what sort of state is the new 'Delta' thingy in?
>Last I heard it was coming along nicely, but not yet
>completed.
>
Have a look at www.ecutek.com.
Well it's working well enough to log all this !
All I need to do is add support for all the 2002 trouble codes - there are potentially 268 of them to add, then we're all systems go. If anyone wants to organise a scoobynet bulk buy, let me know - I'm sure we can arrange something good.
>would it be safe to fit a Dawes MBC,
>if it has benn leaned out slightly up top
>
My personal preference is never to add any devices to the car that prevent the ECU from doing what it wants. When the ECU sees knock, it has the option to reduce boost to prevent engine damage. With a Dawes, it doesn't - it must either fuel fully or not at all. Be careful - limp home mode might become push home mode, and that's with any ECU and an external boost controller on high boost. If you want a higher boost curve, get the boost map altered - that's the 'right' way to do it.
Also, Impreza fuel maps are rather clever - they don't specify injector pulse widths. Instead, they specify air/fuel ratios. This is why Imprezas survive so well when we abuse them with external devices. I.e. If you go off the end of the fuelling map (which you definitely will with a boost controller), the AFR is maintained at the point where you flew off the end of the map - more air, more fuel. So long as you don't run out of injector duty of course. I am running 292BHP on std 440cc injectors, and DeltaDash shows that my Injector Duty is hitting a maximum of 80.3% (15.1ms) at 6380 RPM with a boost pressure of 12.7 PSI. If you had set your boost to 18PSI, then you're gonna be dang near to running out of injector capability. If you're gonna wind your boost up, log what's going on, then you know when to get some mates in the back to help you push it home :-)
Back to trouble codes...
Cheers
Steve
(edited to correct boost from 15.1 to 12.7 PSI)
[Edited by StephenDone - 3/10/2002 10:06:33 PM]
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