immigration problem (simple answer)
17 September 2009, 02:50 PM
#31
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So a pregnant woman goes on holiday to Kenya and unexpectedly gives birth. She then flies home to Ipswich. How does (or even theoretically how could) a blood test establish place of birth?
The reason there isn't a simple answer to the supposed immigration problem is because it isn't a simple problem. However, there are a few myths that seem to colour people's judgement, so for the record I'll point out a few facts:
1) Not every immigrant coming in is illegal. Not even the ones that are brown or talk a bit funny
2) Not every immigrant is coming here simply because they want £60 a week and a cheaply built flat on a **** hole sink estate
3) Not every immigrant heads for the UK. In fact every single country on the planet has immigrants, both legal and illegal
4) France (or any other EU country for that matter) does not simply usher immigrants through the Channel Tunnel with a Gallic shrug to let the rosbifs deal with the problem.
5) The vast majority of benefits are given to those who need them
6) The vast majority of long term unemployed are our own home grown stock
7) Many of our home grown long term unemployed have never paid taxes or NI
I appreciate that this makes it difficult to point at someone and blame them for the collapse of the social fabric of the country, but I'm afraid that it's the truth.
The reason there isn't a simple answer to the supposed immigration problem is because it isn't a simple problem. However, there are a few myths that seem to colour people's judgement, so for the record I'll point out a few facts:
1) Not every immigrant coming in is illegal. Not even the ones that are brown or talk a bit funny
2) Not every immigrant is coming here simply because they want £60 a week and a cheaply built flat on a **** hole sink estate
3) Not every immigrant heads for the UK. In fact every single country on the planet has immigrants, both legal and illegal
4) France (or any other EU country for that matter) does not simply usher immigrants through the Channel Tunnel with a Gallic shrug to let the rosbifs deal with the problem.
5) The vast majority of benefits are given to those who need them
6) The vast majority of long term unemployed are our own home grown stock
7) Many of our home grown long term unemployed have never paid taxes or NI
I appreciate that this makes it difficult to point at someone and blame them for the collapse of the social fabric of the country, but I'm afraid that it's the truth.
17 September 2009, 02:59 PM
#32
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So a pregnant woman goes on holiday to Kenya and unexpectedly gives birth. She then flies home to Ipswich. How does (or even theoretically how could) a blood test establish place of birth?
The reason there isn't a simple answer to the supposed immigration problem is because it isn't a simple problem. However, there are a few myths that seem to colour people's judgement, so for the record I'll point out a few facts:
1) Not every immigrant coming in is illegal. Not even the ones that are brown or talk a bit funny
2) Not every immigrant is coming here simply because they want £60 a week and a cheaply built flat on a **** hole sink estate
3) Not every immigrant heads for the UK. In fact every single country on the planet has immigrants, both legal and illegal
4) France (or any other EU country for that matter) does not simply usher immigrants through the Channel Tunnel with a Gallic shrug to let the rosbifs deal with the problem.
5) The vast majority of benefits are given to those who need them
6) The vast majority of long term unemployed are our own home grown stock
7) Many of our home grown long term unemployed have never paid taxes or NI
I appreciate that this makes it difficult to point at someone and blame them for the collapse of the social fabric of the country, but I'm afraid that it's the truth.
The reason there isn't a simple answer to the supposed immigration problem is because it isn't a simple problem. However, there are a few myths that seem to colour people's judgement, so for the record I'll point out a few facts:
1) Not every immigrant coming in is illegal. Not even the ones that are brown or talk a bit funny
2) Not every immigrant is coming here simply because they want £60 a week and a cheaply built flat on a **** hole sink estate
3) Not every immigrant heads for the UK. In fact every single country on the planet has immigrants, both legal and illegal
4) France (or any other EU country for that matter) does not simply usher immigrants through the Channel Tunnel with a Gallic shrug to let the rosbifs deal with the problem.
5) The vast majority of benefits are given to those who need them
6) The vast majority of long term unemployed are our own home grown stock
7) Many of our home grown long term unemployed have never paid taxes or NI
I appreciate that this makes it difficult to point at someone and blame them for the collapse of the social fabric of the country, but I'm afraid that it's the truth.
As said many, many times before, our home grown chav problem is another matter and only a 'tard would confuse or muddle the two issues
or maybe it suit thier own agenda to, who knows.No on has said that all immigrant are a problem but some are including claiming for children in this country whio still live abroad for example anmd well documented, not just by the DM.
we seem to have little or no control or filtering, or at least we did not an now have bolted the stable door once the horse has bolted - as usual!
Try getting work in wharehousing for instance, a difficult area to get into as most roles filled by immigrants, hadly a skilled job now is it, this list goes on... Oh and funnily enough by BiL is a senor manager for a well known firm and is the one who pointed this out with some 80% of his floorstaff being from easter europe.
17 September 2009, 03:14 PM
#33
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it is down to certian levels of certian chemicals, etc in the blood over a long period of time, same can be said for hair/teeth, no not from CSI, a prog on Nat Geo actually a while back, like it or not!
As said many, many times before, our home grown chav problem is another matter and only a 'tard would confuse or muddle the two issues or maybe it suit thier own agenda to, who knows.
No on has said that all immigrant are a problem but some are including claiming for children in this country whio still live abroad for example anmd well documented, not just by the DM.
we seem to have little or no control or filtering, or at least we did not an now have bolted the stable door once the horse has bolted - as usual!
Try getting work in wharehousing for instance, a difficult area to get into as most roles filled by immigrants, hadly a skilled job now is it, this list goes on... Oh and funnily enough by BiL is a senor manager for a well known firm and is the one who pointed this out with some 80% of his floorstaff being from easter europe.
As said many, many times before, our home grown chav problem is another matter and only a 'tard would confuse or muddle the two issues
or maybe it suit thier own agenda to, who knows.No on has said that all immigrant are a problem but some are including claiming for children in this country whio still live abroad for example anmd well documented, not just by the DM.
we seem to have little or no control or filtering, or at least we did not an now have bolted the stable door once the horse has bolted - as usual!
Try getting work in wharehousing for instance, a difficult area to get into as most roles filled by immigrants, hadly a skilled job now is it, this list goes on... Oh and funnily enough by BiL is a senor manager for a well known firm and is the one who pointed this out with some 80% of his floorstaff being from easter europe.
Hang on, now you're accusing them of working...make your mind up Paul
17 September 2009, 03:17 PM
#34
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I agree that the EU has it's pro and cons, but the £20m a day is an entirely bogus number dreamed up by UKIP.
17 September 2009, 03:38 PM
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I will shuit up if you can hand on heart tell me there are no problems with the immigtrants, legal, illegal or whatever we have in this country, no crime related issues, no benefit fraud, no intergration issues or any other problems or challenges...
17 September 2009, 03:39 PM
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How much does EU membership cost?
"... In 2006, Britain's net contribution to the EC budget was £3.9bn ..."
Divide by 365 (or 366 for a leap year!) - too much of our money going to the EU Superstate project.
Dave
17 September 2009, 03:39 PM
#37
No need for stuff like that to be written. Just makes people not want to post anything.
17 September 2009, 03:54 PM
#39
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The issue is how much of a problem is immigration, not is it a problem at all.
For me the big question is how much of our own morality are we prepared to sacrifice in order to deal with this 'issue'?
You could replace the word Immigrant with the word Jew and get pretty close to some of the debate in 1930s Germany, it's truly shocking!!
17 September 2009, 04:00 PM
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If you were to really believe the Daily Mail and its ilk you could be forgven for thinking the entire nation's problems are caused by the immigrants and that they are overrunning the country.
Does anyone here know what percentage of the UK population belongs to an ethnic minority? Daily Mail readers would probably say 50% LOL, but the real number is just 8.7%. Hardly overrun are we?
17 September 2009, 04:01 PM
#41
I was going through some papers at my folks house a few months ago and came across my great grandparent's immigration papers dated 1938. Granted entry and residency in the UK due to **** persecution.
I wonder how many people would shout so loudly against immigrants (legal or otherwise) if they knew their own histories?
I wonder how many people would shout so loudly against immigrants (legal or otherwise) if they knew their own histories?
17 September 2009, 04:17 PM
#42
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These things are a matter of fact, not opinion.
17 September 2009, 04:33 PM
#43
1) if someone enters UK via Europe and claims they are seeking asylum - one would question why they left it to the UK border to make this claim.
2) if anyone can claim asylum once they have arrived - to all intents and purposes, is there such a thing as an illegal immigrant other than those who have had their applications refused?
As German Jews arriving here and in the US in the late 30's were making the UK and the US their first realistic point of call, I am not sure what the relevance of your point is to my post.
Don't get me wrong - I have nothing but admiration for someone who can get here all the way from Afghanistan via Pakistan, Iran, Turkey etc etc. with out any documentation. It shows a lot of initiative
It is just that I question their motives.
17 September 2009, 05:13 PM
#44
OK, the only thing in my post that could be construed as offensive is the word "fool". As far as my post goes, the word only applies to people that believe France doesn't have an immigration problem. Are you saying you don't believe France has an immigration problem? Do you believe that every immigrant that sets foot in France only does so in order to march themselves to Calais to wait for a truck to the UK?
These things are a matter of fact, not opinion.
These things are a matter of fact, not opinion.
Mistake on my part for not typing every little minute detail for you to read as I dont spend majority of my time on the PC
But does that clear it up for you?
17 September 2009, 06:47 PM
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To bring up the Jews is simply trying to make the issue more emotive than it already is.
Modern so-called asylum seekers have broken international law by NOT applying for asylum in the first country they come to, or at the British embassy in their own. They have NO RIGHT to asylum in the UK if they break the law to get here.
Make no mistake, the majority of these so-called asylum seekers are ECONOMIC MIGRANTS, and the fact is that our government haven't the cojones to boot them out again.
We aren't talking ALL immigrants here. We are talking economic migrants who get here and go straight onto benefits. Of course there are hard-working immigrants who came with permission, whose skills we value and need, but the others? Get shut!
17 September 2009, 07:05 PM
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I think you are being disengenuous here Martin, (what a surprise). You attempt to equate the two, and they are dissimilar. The Jews were fleeing persecution, and the first country they could get to, took them. In many cases, the UK, or the USA was their first port of call.
To bring up the Jews is simply trying to make the issue more emotive than it already is.
Modern so-called asylum seekers have broken international law by NOT applying for asylum in the first country they come to, or at the British embassy in their own. They have NO RIGHT to asylum in the UK if they break the law to get here.
Make no mistake, the majority of these so-called asylum seekers are ECONOMIC MIGRANTS, and the fact is that our government haven't the cojones to boot them out again.
We aren't talking ALL immigrants here. We are talking economic migrants who get here and go straight onto benefits. Of course there are hard-working immigrants who came with permission, whose skills we value and need, but the others? Get shut!
To bring up the Jews is simply trying to make the issue more emotive than it already is.
Modern so-called asylum seekers have broken international law by NOT applying for asylum in the first country they come to, or at the British embassy in their own. They have NO RIGHT to asylum in the UK if they break the law to get here.
Make no mistake, the majority of these so-called asylum seekers are ECONOMIC MIGRANTS, and the fact is that our government haven't the cojones to boot them out again.
We aren't talking ALL immigrants here. We are talking economic migrants who get here and go straight onto benefits. Of course there are hard-working immigrants who came with permission, whose skills we value and need, but the others? Get shut!
Nobody has deputed any of what you say (FFS this is painful) I am disputing the extent of the problem though
BTW Britian and America's record of helping Jews fleeing the ****'s is not something we can be very proud of
Last edited by Martin2005; 17 September 2009 at 07:10 PM.
17 September 2009, 07:14 PM
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We aren't talking ALL immigrants here. We are talking economic migrants who get here and go straight onto benefits. Of course there are hard-working immigrants who came with permission, whose skills we value and need, but the others? Get shut!
Did ANYONE do better than us?
Last edited by tanyatriangles; 17 September 2009 at 07:16 PM.
17 September 2009, 07:31 PM
#48
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Oh look. BBC NEWS | Europe | France to close migrant 'jungle'
"... Some 1,500 migrants are now living in insanitary settlements in Calais and neighbouring areas, hoping to cross to Britain ...". And that report is the Beeb one which is about as 'neutral' as they come ....
As someone else said, these people are trying to get to the UK *ILLEGALLY*. Why are they not claiming asylum in France then? Why not in the countries before France after they got out of their own country? Because they all think we're a soft touch that's why. And NuLiebor won't kick them out or put the processes into place that we SHOULD have to keep these people out and discourage them from even trying to enter the country.
Dave
"... Some 1,500 migrants are now living in insanitary settlements in Calais and neighbouring areas, hoping to cross to Britain ...". And that report is the Beeb one which is about as 'neutral' as they come ....
As someone else said, these people are trying to get to the UK *ILLEGALLY*. Why are they not claiming asylum in France then? Why not in the countries before France after they got out of their own country? Because they all think we're a soft touch that's why. And NuLiebor won't kick them out or put the processes into place that we SHOULD have to keep these people out and discourage them from even trying to enter the country.
Dave
17 September 2009, 08:05 PM
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17 September 2009, 10:48 PM
#51
Originally Posted by David Lock
One obvious solution is to get out of Europe and stop all immigration aside from those that are needed to strengthen the economy and earn enough to pay the taxes required to give me a pension when I retire. UK would also save around £20m a day by pulling out.
These people are coming in to country. However, people in the UK are still losing out as companies are recruiting from abroad as its cheaper for them to pay someone from there as they would happily accept what little pay packet the company is offering, whereas someone living here already would need to be paid alot more which is where companies are "exploiting" the system. Also, applying to come here now is not that hard. Its a points based system, simple tick box answers for people who are required to have an entry clearance.
Pulling out of EU would be too hard. UK doesnt export much, it imports and these "channels" are needed. By entering EU the idea was that it would make things easier for the UK economy I would assume. However, its gotten out of control. But these avenues of import/export need to be kept open with little boundaries.
The sensible thing would have been to assess the economic condition of each EU country and decide which of those would have been beneficial to the UK and then have given them the ease of travel and limited those who didnt meet the criteria. But would it have worked?? Some human rights activist or whoever would have kicked up some fuss.
One obvious solution is to get out of Europe and stop all immigration aside from those that are needed to strengthen the economy and earn enough to pay the taxes required to give me a pension when I retire. UK would also save around £20m a day by pulling out.
These people are coming in to country. However, people in the UK are still losing out as companies are recruiting from abroad as its cheaper for them to pay someone from there as they would happily accept what little pay packet the company is offering, whereas someone living here already would need to be paid alot more which is where companies are "exploiting" the system. Also, applying to come here now is not that hard. Its a points based system, simple tick box answers for people who are required to have an entry clearance.
Pulling out of EU would be too hard. UK doesnt export much, it imports and these "channels" are needed. By entering EU the idea was that it would make things easier for the UK economy I would assume. However, its gotten out of control. But these avenues of import/export need to be kept open with little boundaries.
The sensible thing would have been to assess the economic condition of each EU country and decide which of those would have been beneficial to the UK and then have given them the ease of travel and limited those who didnt meet the criteria. But would it have worked?? Some human rights activist or whoever would have kicked up some fuss.
Last edited by Slick81; 17 September 2009 at 10:50 PM.
17 September 2009, 10:59 PM
#52
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...
Pulling out of EU would be too hard. UK doesnt export much, it imports and these "channels" are needed. By entering EU the idea was that it would make things easier for the UK economy I would assume. However, its gotten out of control. But these avenues of import/export need to be kept open with little boundaries.
...
Pulling out of EU would be too hard. UK doesnt export much, it imports and these "channels" are needed. By entering EU the idea was that it would make things easier for the UK economy I would assume. However, its gotten out of control. But these avenues of import/export need to be kept open with little boundaries.
...
Get us out of the EU so we can govern our own country and not have ****-wipes from Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. That includes immigration ......
Dave
17 September 2009, 11:34 PM
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We don't have to be in the EU to trade with other countries. If we're that large a market for their products they will not be wanting to stop trading with us. WTO rules probably wouldn't allow it anyway.
Get us out of the EU so we can govern our own country and not have ****-wipes from Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. That includes immigration ......
Dave
Get us out of the EU so we can govern our own country and not have ****-wipes from Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. That includes immigration ......
Dave
I just love the way you take massively complex economic and political matters and can boil it down to a simple answer. FFS can you not see that it just aint that simple.
Do I like EU over-regulation - NO.
Is it the EU finished article yet - hell no
Can it be made more accountable and representative - well I hope so
Do I think we should stop whining about the nasty Europeans and get on with winning the argument - hell yes
Last edited by Martin2005; 17 September 2009 at 11:35 PM.
18 September 2009, 08:17 AM
#54
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18 September 2009, 10:11 AM
#55
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it seems to me we should embrace the European model
I,e invest in the work force
actually have an industrial base
stop running the country on high levels of personal debt
otherwise we are just going to swing alone in the fickle winds of the global financial markets in a country that keeps 10% of the popluation very well off by having a predominatly low skill low wage economy
I,e invest in the work force
actually have an industrial base
stop running the country on high levels of personal debt
otherwise we are just going to swing alone in the fickle winds of the global financial markets in a country that keeps 10% of the popluation very well off by having a predominatly low skill low wage economy
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 18 September 2009 at 10:16 AM.
18 September 2009, 12:34 PM
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We don't have to be in the EU to trade with other countries. If we're that large a market for their products they will not be wanting to stop trading with us. WTO rules probably wouldn't allow it anyway.
Get us out of the EU so we can govern our own country and not have ****-wipes from Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. That includes immigration ......
Dave
Get us out of the EU so we can govern our own country and not have ****-wipes from Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. That includes immigration ......
Dave
Then, when people like yourself, and others, complain about the stupidity, the government points the finger at the EC, and says, "Not us, it's that nasty Europe you need to blame".
Meanwhile, the other member states look at each rule, law, or directive, and if they can't find it beneficial to their country, they effectively ignore it.
Quite WHY our lot do the opposite, I don't know. Because of the "stiff upper lip", because we are essentailly **** as a country, or something more sinister? I honestly don't know.
But it's keeping us from CLOSER ties with Europe, so maybe that's it........
18 September 2009, 01:53 PM
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18 September 2009, 02:02 PM
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We don't have to be in the EU to trade with other countries. If we're that large a market for their products they will not be wanting to stop trading with us. WTO rules probably wouldn't allow it anyway.
Get us out of the EU so we can govern our own country and not have ****-wipes from Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. That includes immigration ......
Dave
Get us out of the EU so we can govern our own country and not have ****-wipes from Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. That includes immigration ......
Dave
18 September 2009, 02:40 PM
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Dave: while I sympathise with your stance, and at risk of repeating myself on Europe, I have to say that the problems you see re: governing our own country, aren't caused by Europe, they are caused by the slavish insistance of successive BRITISH governments who INSIST on enforcing every rule, law and directive to the extent of their power.
Then, when people like yourself, and others, complain about the stupidity, the government points the finger at the EC, and says, "Not us, it's that nasty Europe you need to blame".
Meanwhile, the other member states look at each rule, law, or directive, and if they can't find it beneficial to their country, they effectively ignore it.
Quite WHY our lot do the opposite, I don't know. Because of the "stiff upper lip", because we are essentailly **** as a country, or something more sinister? I honestly don't know.
But it's keeping us from CLOSER ties with Europe, so maybe that's it........
Then, when people like yourself, and others, complain about the stupidity, the government points the finger at the EC, and says, "Not us, it's that nasty Europe you need to blame".
Meanwhile, the other member states look at each rule, law, or directive, and if they can't find it beneficial to their country, they effectively ignore it.
Quite WHY our lot do the opposite, I don't know. Because of the "stiff upper lip", because we are essentailly **** as a country, or something more sinister? I honestly don't know.
But it's keeping us from CLOSER ties with Europe, so maybe that's it........
18 September 2009, 03:06 PM
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I can see that exiting EU would be complicated but not impossible surely?
I just cannot see real advantages in being in Europe and plenty of disadvantages. Perhaps that's just naive
But if we pull out we can still trade on the same terms, adopt EU regulations if we judge them to be positive and lots more beside.
We might get some of our fishing rights back for example and stop having to subsidise inefficient farmers. Immigration is back under our control and ws can deal sympathetically with genuine asylum seekers, poor sods.
I don't seem to personally gain any benefits like cheaper travel or holidays And most of them refuse to speak English 
And when we need help like in Afghanistan sod all is offered. We are much better off being nice to USA than relying on EU for our defence.
etc etc
dl
I just cannot see real advantages in being in Europe and plenty of disadvantages. Perhaps that's just naive
But if we pull out we can still trade on the same terms, adopt EU regulations if we judge them to be positive and lots more beside.
We might get some of our fishing rights back for example and stop having to subsidise inefficient farmers. Immigration is back under our control and ws can deal sympathetically with genuine asylum seekers, poor sods.
I don't seem to personally gain any benefits like cheaper travel or holidays
And most of them refuse to speak English And when we need help like in Afghanistan sod all is offered. We are much better off being nice to USA than relying on EU for our defence.
etc etc
dl