Should someone die in just over 1 hours time?
13 March 2002, 12:21 AM
#31
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To some he is now stood before GOD - who is deciding upon his future.
To me he will not harm another again - that is sufficient reason for killing someone in my eyes.
Now, we could do worse than sweep the scum off the streets of THIS country and have an execution programme here - sorry to the lily livered liberals but I WANT, no DEMAND, that we remove these scum from society .............. PERMANENTLY
Pete
To me he will not harm another again - that is sufficient reason for killing someone in my eyes.
Now, we could do worse than sweep the scum off the streets of THIS country and have an execution programme here - sorry to the lily livered liberals but I WANT, no DEMAND, that we remove these scum from society .............. PERMANENTLY
Pete
13 March 2002, 12:24 AM
#32
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So just past midnight and I guess he's dead. I think largely speaking I'm with Scrappy and John F on this one.
When does killing another human being become right? Under what circumstances is it ok to kill another human being?
Any one of us runs the risk of killing someone in our car... it maybe through carelessness, drunkeness or speeding. Does that life deserve the life of the driver. The result is the same the death of another human being. Questionably even the violence of the act is similar, my father in law is a fireman who can tell many stories of fatal RTA's and the suffering the injured party goes through before they take their last breath.
I agree we are now rid of him from this world, but society was rid of him (apart from the cost) some 17 years ago. His family take no comfort from his death.
And for heavens sake just because someone admits to something it doesn't mean it's neccessarily true. There are many many stories of falsified evidence and confessions made under duress. Some years ago wasn't some police squad in Birmingham closed down because of the very same thing.
I'm off to bed now.
Dave
When does killing another human being become right? Under what circumstances is it ok to kill another human being?
Any one of us runs the risk of killing someone in our car... it maybe through carelessness, drunkeness or speeding. Does that life deserve the life of the driver. The result is the same the death of another human being. Questionably even the violence of the act is similar, my father in law is a fireman who can tell many stories of fatal RTA's and the suffering the injured party goes through before they take their last breath.
I agree we are now rid of him from this world, but society was rid of him (apart from the cost) some 17 years ago. His family take no comfort from his death.
And for heavens sake just because someone admits to something it doesn't mean it's neccessarily true. There are many many stories of falsified evidence and confessions made under duress. Some years ago wasn't some police squad in Birmingham closed down because of the very same thing.
I'm off to bed now.
Dave
13 March 2002, 12:28 AM
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Im not arguing im stating my points. I dont think it is taking it too far. We need to plan for the future ie where we are going etc, and John you too are entitled to your believes as this is a free country, but a point to consider. If you reject God now, when you die and you have to face him he will reject you. I know it doesnt seem too relevant to you right now but in a few years it will..???
scrappy
PS It seems as though some of you guys crave blood, and its quite a scarey thought.
scrappy
PS It seems as though some of you guys crave blood, and its quite a scarey thought.
13 March 2002, 12:30 AM
#35
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Well, we have gone around the houses on this one and I am glad that there was a cross section of opinions - makes the community what it is ............ maybe we can all learn a lesson from this?
We all have differing views, doesnt mean one is right and the other isnt - and - havent we just learnt that life has some value ... even if that life has taken another??
Isreal is engaged in an eye for an eye policy at the moment and they are still dying ............. so who knows what is the right way?
Goodnight all
Pete
We all have differing views, doesnt mean one is right and the other isnt - and - havent we just learnt that life has some value ... even if that life has taken another??
Isreal is engaged in an eye for an eye policy at the moment and they are still dying ............. so who knows what is the right way?
Goodnight all
Pete
13 March 2002, 12:36 AM
#38
dont want to send this into a debate on the existence of a god.
Just a couple of points. You shouldnt believe in something because if you dont you wont get to paradise and will be rejected.
If god is worthy of being worshipped, a concept i find bizzare by the way, he/she/it would accept you on your acts, not on whether you believed in him/her/it because you were taught by your ancestors to do so.
Just a couple of points. You shouldnt believe in something because if you dont you wont get to paradise and will be rejected.
If god is worthy of being worshipped, a concept i find bizzare by the way, he/she/it would accept you on your acts, not on whether you believed in him/her/it because you were taught by your ancestors to do so.
13 March 2002, 12:51 AM
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John, Like i said previously there is a heaven and a hell whether you or others accept it or not. I do not believe because i feel obligated to or because i have been taught to by my so called ancestors but because i choice to. I have had various serious problems/situations throughout my life and without delving into them i believe i have been delievered through them every time by God. Theres my proof, for me. In regards to your word 'acts'. If we were judged on those alone then we would all go to heaven wouldnt we? As simple as helping an old lady cross the road.Surely you have heard the Qoute " The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?
13 March 2002, 01:30 AM
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Scrappy
Stop stating existence of God/Heaven/Hell as a fact.
It is your opinion nothing else. It is disrespectful to all the aethiests on this Forum to state it is fact.
Pete
As usual you have started an entertaining thread.Thank you, even if I'm going to disagree with you. The reason has already been put forward by JohnFelstead.
Stop stating existence of God/Heaven/Hell as a fact.
It is your opinion nothing else. It is disrespectful to all the aethiests on this Forum to state it is fact.
Pete
As usual you have started an entertaining thread.Thank you, even if I'm going to disagree with you. The reason has already been put forward by JohnFelstead.
13 March 2002, 01:33 AM
#41
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I think 
it is strange that at a time when we are talking about the exercution of another Human, religion pops its head into the debate. Which it has to be said has probably been the cause of more deaths and Murders than any other source in the entire history of mankind. If people wished to cut back on the amount of people needlessly killed then surely it would be the obvious choice to first get rid of religion?
ian
it is strange that at a time when we are talking about the exercution of another Human, religion pops its head into the debate. Which it has to be said has probably been the cause of more deaths and Murders than any other source in the entire history of mankind. If people wished to cut back on the amount of people needlessly killed then surely it would be the obvious choice to first get rid of religion?ian
13 March 2002, 02:07 AM
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And you live in a trailor and wear a mullet?
You'd be whistling a different tune if you had been fcuked in the *** without your consent!
[Edited by StiScoobySteve - 3/13/2002 2:09:45 AM]
You'd be whistling a different tune if you had been fcuked in the *** without your consent!
[Edited by StiScoobySteve - 3/13/2002 2:09:45 AM]
13 March 2002, 06:45 AM
#43
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Pete, good debate as has been said.
I'll try to be short... most of the reasons I am against capital punishment have been raised by JF.
It's a very fine line though ... you would kill him yourself if it happened to you, and in my eyes that would be "just" or understandable. But society organizing an execution is a different thing.
I do wonder if the victims family finds any "relief/comfort" in the execution. Guess for some it does, for others it doesn't.
I'll try to be short... most of the reasons I am against capital punishment have been raised by JF.
It's a very fine line though ... you would kill him yourself if it happened to you, and in my eyes that would be "just" or understandable. But society organizing an execution is a different thing.
I do wonder if the victims family finds any "relief/comfort" in the execution. Guess for some it does, for others it doesn't.
13 March 2002, 08:14 AM
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wow what a thread steal 
on topic : I dissagree with the death penalty as (as john stated) the courts are far from infalable... however, There are some people who should be alowed into society (locked up forever) and someone who rapes / murders 17 ppl (apparantly he admited that, under duress or not) then I think they should but I change my mind daily
off topic : I can't understand how people can belive in god because of him being some all powerfull diety that will "woop ur ***" if you dont and you'll burn in hell if you dont do what your version of the divine law. I know lots of ppl who religon gives a lot of comfort so I'm all for it... I just dont belive
on topic : I dissagree with the death penalty as (as john stated) the courts are far from infalable... however, There are some people who should be alowed into society (locked up forever) and someone who rapes / murders 17 ppl (apparantly he admited that, under duress or not) then I think they should but I change my mind daily
off topic : I can't understand how people can belive in god because of him being some all powerfull diety that will "woop ur ***" if you dont and you'll burn in hell if you dont do what your version of the divine law. I know lots of ppl who religon gives a lot of comfort so I'm all for it... I just dont belive
13 March 2002, 08:32 AM
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If you reject God now, when you die and you have to face him he will reject you. I know it doesnt seem too relevant to you right now but in a few years it will..???
If God really exists, how can he stand idly by as women are raped and killed, kids like Damilola Taylor murdered, amd millions die around the world from poverty and war? His/Her existance is utter b*llox IMHO.I also agree with PSL etc and beleive in the death penalty. But more to the point, this guy knew the law of the land at the time, and thus Blair had no place in asking for him to have been punished in accordance with EU values.
13 March 2002, 08:49 AM
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As a confirmed Roman Catholic (now non-practising) I too had the opinion of Disco's when I challenged my faith.
I still am not sure what I truly believe in, but I do have the utmost respect for what other people believe in.
I still am not sure what I truly believe in, but I do have the utmost respect for what other people believe in.
13 March 2002, 09:52 AM
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I think lethal injection which I presume he has had already was too good for the ba5tard... if he has admitted it and there was no doubt he did it then I think he should have had the same fate as his victim... two wrongs don't make a right, but at least people might think twice... If I rape this woman then I will be raped by some massive bloke called budda! etc...
I still believe that any one done for rape or child abuse should have there bits removed....
I still believe that any one done for rape or child abuse should have there bits removed....
13 March 2002, 10:07 AM
#48
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Kill the *******... and lets start a queue at the gas chamber in this country... fed-up spending my hard-earned keeping low-life scum in institutional hotels..
As for religion.. lots of people get a lot of strength through their beliefs so that's cool. What's ALWAYS concerned me is that all religious schools teach patience, tolerance and goodwill to fellow man and YET more people have been killed and ARE being killed on a daily basis in the name of god! Something's come off the tracks somewhere..
Morning RANT over..
As for religion.. lots of people get a lot of strength through their beliefs so that's cool. What's ALWAYS concerned me is that all religious schools teach patience, tolerance and goodwill to fellow man and YET more people have been killed and ARE being killed on a daily basis in the name of god! Something's come off the tracks somewhere..
Morning RANT over..
13 March 2002, 10:11 AM
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What ever happened to Thou Shall Not Kill???
Nobody deserves to die, what gives you or anyone else the right to kill someone????
The world really would be better off without people that agree with the death penalty, IMHO right wing bigots!! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Osama
Nobody deserves to die, what gives you or anyone else the right to kill someone????
The world really would be better off without people that agree with the death penalty, IMHO right wing bigots!! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Osama
13 March 2002, 10:16 AM
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Osama, would the 'right to kill someone' NOT apply to the murderer then?
I agree with the death penalty but think the judicial system is not up to putting the right people away EVERY time.
As for the God question? Voilent extreme religion............both World Wars....Northern Ireland........Middle East.......stop me when you've had enough...
blubs
I agree with the death penalty but think the judicial system is not up to putting the right people away EVERY time.
As for the God question? Voilent extreme religion............both World Wars....Northern Ireland........Middle East.......stop me when you've had enough...
blubs
13 March 2002, 10:40 AM
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Wow - what a first post of the day to read!
Some very interesting points. Ive had this argument with my dad before and I must say that even though there are people who it appears did commit a serious crime - one can never be 100% sure and unless we invent a system to read peoples minds I dont think we can ever be 100% sure even with eye witnesses and DNA testing etc.
To this point I feel that capital punishment cannot happen if we arent sure of someones guilt but at the same time we must ENSURE that they are kept in prison for LIFE and I dont mean 15-25 years - I mean until they die. This then means that they arent then executed wrongly, their family can try and prove their innocence etc. I would obviously feel differently if it was my sister who had been raped and murdered but its when your mind is clear that you should be making such decisions and not when clouded by personal emotion.
As for religion - dont get me started. There is no proof a god of any type or heaven/hell does or doesn't exist, so I as an atheist I dont go around preaching to others that they definetly dont even though this is what I believe. I would appreciate the same courtesy from people who do believe.
[Edited by P1Fanatic - 3/13/2002 10:53:41 AM]
[Edited by P1Fanatic - 3/13/2002 10:54:17 AM]
Some very interesting points. Ive had this argument with my dad before and I must say that even though there are people who it appears did commit a serious crime - one can never be 100% sure and unless we invent a system to read peoples minds I dont think we can ever be 100% sure even with eye witnesses and DNA testing etc.
To this point I feel that capital punishment cannot happen if we arent sure of someones guilt but at the same time we must ENSURE that they are kept in prison for LIFE and I dont mean 15-25 years - I mean until they die. This then means that they arent then executed wrongly, their family can try and prove their innocence etc. I would obviously feel differently if it was my sister who had been raped and murdered but its when your mind is clear that you should be making such decisions and not when clouded by personal emotion.
As for religion - dont get me started. There is no proof a god of any type or heaven/hell does or doesn't exist, so I as an atheist I dont go around preaching to others that they definetly dont even though this is what I believe. I would appreciate the same courtesy from people who do believe.
[Edited by P1Fanatic - 3/13/2002 10:53:41 AM]
[Edited by P1Fanatic - 3/13/2002 10:54:17 AM]
13 March 2002, 10:44 AM
#54
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My 2 pence worth.
Don't lock him up for life. It would just cost too much and what sort of life would he have?
Excecute him. He is a danger to our wives and children.
Put it this way. If someone tried to rape you you'd kill him wouldn't you?
There are too many lefties in this country. If someone is a danger to the public, then kill em. What's wrong with that?
Don't lock him up for life. It would just cost too much and what sort of life would he have?
Excecute him. He is a danger to our wives and children.
Put it this way. If someone tried to rape you you'd kill him wouldn't you?
There are too many lefties in this country. If someone is a danger to the public, then kill em. What's wrong with that?
13 March 2002, 10:52 AM
#55
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Religion causes many confilcts.
The opinions on religion will be passionate.
Not everyone will agree with them
Should you choose to divulge into the debate about religion then I suggest you do so with utmost respect about other people's belief's and not put someone down or argue without factual and reasoned information.
Michelle
The opinions on religion will be passionate.
Not everyone will agree with them
Should you choose to divulge into the debate about religion then I suggest you do so with utmost respect about other people's belief's and not put someone down or argue without factual and reasoned information.
Michelle
13 March 2002, 11:00 AM
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I know it sounds like a contradiction in terms.
I am a scientist by nature, but alsoa Christian, I have tried analysing my faith and have failed to do so.
Somewhere along the lines there is a compromise, I am still searching for it.
I am a scientist by nature, but alsoa Christian, I have tried analysing my faith and have failed to do so.
Somewhere along the lines there is a compromise, I am still searching for it.
13 March 2002, 11:08 AM
#58
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I do not beleive in the death penalty per se, since I have difficulty drawing a line where the killing of another person is justifiable. However, I find it difficult to mourn the passing of someone who has been the cause of suffering and death to others.
I personally am of no fixed religion, but live by my own moral code. Would I go to Heaven or Hell when I die?
Do I have to accept "God, as the father of Christ" to get into heaven? Or will accepting "God, as Allah" be just as good?
What about "God, as the universal conciousness" (a la Bhuddism), will that get me the free pass through the pearly gates?
Sorry to spout off like this, I fully agree that every person has a right to their own beliefs. I do not agree that every person has the right to tell me my beliefs are wrong, and that I will face eternal damnation for them.
It is attitudes like that, that were responsible for the deaths of thousands during the Crusades, more during the Inquisition, and even the deaths of those on "September the 11th". The Taliban were told they were fighting "a holy war against the West".
Holy War. Now *that* is an illiteration as bad as "military intelligence". Every religion states that you should love, respect and help your neighbours. Unless they are evil (in league with the devil), in which case you should wipe them from the face of the Earth. The warriors of God will be needed to combat those of Hell come the Armageddon.
So evil people deserve to die? They are abandoned of God, they should be sent back to the pit from whence they came?
Is a rapist and murderer evil? Or is evil only reserved for someone who worships the devil or a false god?
I personally cannot draw the line where the killing of another person is morally justifiable. However, I could easily use religion to draw that line for me...
Just my tuppence, please feel free to ignore it as the inane ramblings of yet another agnostic.
Derek
I personally am of no fixed religion, but live by my own moral code. Would I go to Heaven or Hell when I die?
Do I have to accept "God, as the father of Christ" to get into heaven? Or will accepting "God, as Allah" be just as good?
What about "God, as the universal conciousness" (a la Bhuddism), will that get me the free pass through the pearly gates?
Sorry to spout off like this, I fully agree that every person has a right to their own beliefs. I do not agree that every person has the right to tell me my beliefs are wrong, and that I will face eternal damnation for them.
It is attitudes like that, that were responsible for the deaths of thousands during the Crusades, more during the Inquisition, and even the deaths of those on "September the 11th". The Taliban were told they were fighting "a holy war against the West".
Holy War. Now *that* is an illiteration as bad as "military intelligence". Every religion states that you should love, respect and help your neighbours. Unless they are evil (in league with the devil), in which case you should wipe them from the face of the Earth. The warriors of God will be needed to combat those of Hell come the Armageddon.
So evil people deserve to die? They are abandoned of God, they should be sent back to the pit from whence they came?
Is a rapist and murderer evil? Or is evil only reserved for someone who worships the devil or a false god?
I personally cannot draw the line where the killing of another person is morally justifiable. However, I could easily use religion to draw that line for me...
Just my tuppence, please feel free to ignore it as the inane ramblings of yet another agnostic.
Derek
13 March 2002, 11:15 AM
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Quite frankly death by lethal injection was far too easy for this monster. 17 years wondering when it would be probably didn't even cross his mind, he is a sick animal, not a sane person. No one can say there IS a god Scrappy, I respect your views but at the same time I could tell you there isn't a god. It is merely our own opinion of what we believe.
Wot do we do with dangerous animals, we put them down when they kill people, someone who murders and rapes is not entitled to be treated like a civil human being as quite clearly he isn't one once he has committed those crimes. Why should he be kept in prison at the tax payers expense? He has no life to live in society, he is never going to be released so why cage him up till he dies, some would argue this is more cruel than putting him to death and getting it over and done with. He admitted to doing these crimes, he was not safe to release back into society after any amount of time so why keep him alive. Death by means of the old school like hung drawn and quartered and left to die on a stake would have been more appropriate for the crimes he committed.
I know no one will agree with that opinion as its barbaric but so is what he did so I am glad he is gone, and never allowed to repeat any crime again.
I also strongly agree with Ian's point on religion being the biggest cause of death in history. When religion has sorted itself out then it might have a leg to stand on with pointing out moral obligations.
(Prepared for some flames tomorrow
even tho like everyone else I am entitled to my opinion)
Also think this is one of the best debated topics for a while as I have found Scoobynet a bit off course the last few weeks. Nice one pslewis!
Wot do we do with dangerous animals, we put them down when they kill people, someone who murders and rapes is not entitled to be treated like a civil human being as quite clearly he isn't one once he has committed those crimes. Why should he be kept in prison at the tax payers expense? He has no life to live in society, he is never going to be released so why cage him up till he dies, some would argue this is more cruel than putting him to death and getting it over and done with. He admitted to doing these crimes, he was not safe to release back into society after any amount of time so why keep him alive. Death by means of the old school like hung drawn and quartered and left to die on a stake would have been more appropriate for the crimes he committed.
I know no one will agree with that opinion as its barbaric but so is what he did so I am glad he is gone, and never allowed to repeat any crime again.
I also strongly agree with Ian's point on religion being the biggest cause of death in history. When religion has sorted itself out then it might have a leg to stand on with pointing out moral obligations.
(Prepared for some flames tomorrow
even tho like everyone else I am entitled to my opinion)Also think this is one of the best debated topics for a while as I have found Scoobynet a bit off course the last few weeks. Nice one pslewis!
13 March 2002, 11:25 AM
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Mr L,
For once I agree with you.. he deserves all he gets.
Having helped a close friend through dealing with being raped recently - I know of some of the trauma, I will never fully understand what she went through, but I have an insight now, and that is haunting enough...
Anybody that commits this crime does not deserve freedom, they should be locked up for life.
Alex
For once I agree with you.. he deserves all he gets.
Having helped a close friend through dealing with being raped recently - I know of some of the trauma, I will never fully understand what she went through, but I have an insight now, and that is haunting enough...
Anybody that commits this crime does not deserve freedom, they should be locked up for life.
Alex