Should someone die in just over 1 hours time?
13 March 2002, 11:56 PM
#151
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete, you are looking at it the wrong way mate and taking it out of context with the above. In all those passages mentioned, yes they will die but not by state execution, and by the word 'die' God means go to hell.
14 March 2002, 12:16 AM
#152
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Ok, you are the master of the christian thing and I wont get into discussion its way too heavy for me - I come in here for some light relief. You wouldnt like me anyway as I design weapons of mass destruction!!
What do you think of my points system above?? says he, trying to get off the religion topic - pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese
Pete
What do you think of my points system above?? says he, trying to get off the religion topic - pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese
Pete
14 March 2002, 12:28 AM
#153
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Oh ****, now you have got me going!!
There will always be dreamers who yearn for a society that is based on the Biblical principles such as "turning the other cheek" and "pay evil with good". These dreamers have a good heart. But if they are to be consistent they can not only use these words by Jesus in only one reference – concerning the capital punishment. They must then allow these principles to run through the entire judicial system. All criminals must then be met by only goodness and no one may even whisper the word "punishment." Such a utopian society is neither realistic nor desired here on this earth. Besides, the above quoted words belong to the same category as Jesus’ words "Do not judge, or you too will be judged" (Matt 7:1). If this also was aimed at the judicial system it would mean that all courts of law and all trials that have ever taken place and that take place now are in defiance of Jesus.
Let us, without mercy, speak ironically about where the attitude of the dreamers could lead us: At a trial the judge calls the abused and raped woman to come forth at the same time as the criminal. After that the judge asks the man, with the woman’s consent and according to the principle of "turning the other cheek", to once again attack the woman. When the woman is once again laying there bloody and crying and shaking with fear the judge says to the man: "Go, and sin no more!" And according to the principle of "paying evil with good" the criminal walks away with a smile and a bundle of cash to his freedom, and the judge gives him a warm hug of forgiveness. Outside stands the people and they are furious, not because of the woman’s fate, but because the man even had to go to trial and they now chanting the words of Jesus "Do not judge, or you too will be judged!"
A more crazy and evil world is hard to imagine. We may have beautiful dreams about the perfect love if we want to, but in a complicated and many times cruel and crazy world those dreams are seldom made real, especially not in the legal texts.
I hope your world will not come about, sorry, I dont like the above at all !!
Goodnight all, I'm tired!!
Pete
There will always be dreamers who yearn for a society that is based on the Biblical principles such as "turning the other cheek" and "pay evil with good". These dreamers have a good heart. But if they are to be consistent they can not only use these words by Jesus in only one reference – concerning the capital punishment. They must then allow these principles to run through the entire judicial system. All criminals must then be met by only goodness and no one may even whisper the word "punishment." Such a utopian society is neither realistic nor desired here on this earth. Besides, the above quoted words belong to the same category as Jesus’ words "Do not judge, or you too will be judged" (Matt 7:1). If this also was aimed at the judicial system it would mean that all courts of law and all trials that have ever taken place and that take place now are in defiance of Jesus.
Let us, without mercy, speak ironically about where the attitude of the dreamers could lead us: At a trial the judge calls the abused and raped woman to come forth at the same time as the criminal. After that the judge asks the man, with the woman’s consent and according to the principle of "turning the other cheek", to once again attack the woman. When the woman is once again laying there bloody and crying and shaking with fear the judge says to the man: "Go, and sin no more!" And according to the principle of "paying evil with good" the criminal walks away with a smile and a bundle of cash to his freedom, and the judge gives him a warm hug of forgiveness. Outside stands the people and they are furious, not because of the woman’s fate, but because the man even had to go to trial and they now chanting the words of Jesus "Do not judge, or you too will be judged!"
A more crazy and evil world is hard to imagine. We may have beautiful dreams about the perfect love if we want to, but in a complicated and many times cruel and crazy world those dreams are seldom made real, especially not in the legal texts.
I hope your world will not come about, sorry, I dont like the above at all !!
Goodnight all, I'm tired!!
Pete
14 March 2002, 02:24 AM
#154
Oh god, this is why i hate debates on religion because there are no compromises. Either you believe or you dont. Everyone should respect everyone elses views and be tolerant of them. The last thing you should do is try and force your views on others, even if you see this is doing that person some good by showing them the true light.
What really gets me is that religous people call those who dont believe uneducated or blind or even foolish. Being an athiest is much harder than being religeous because it means you basically have no life after death, you dont have time for forgiveness later, your life is it and then it's over. The concept of that is a cruel thing because when loved ones die it means they are gone forever.
My own background is one of a great deal of education in religion. My Uncle was a priest, my cousin is a priest, i was an alter boy at 6 years old, i studied the bible, i am very knowledgable about christianity. I choose to see religion as i find it.
Religions come and go, 2000 years (christian timespan) is nothing in the history of the human being, never mind this planet and the various life forms that have lived upon it. The absurdity of organised religions being the answer and you must follow a set ruling and lifestyle by this religion is immense in my view. There is more value in the concept of a god although i dont believe in that concept either myself. To acept that there is a god but no religion is far more credible and logical in my eyes.
I wont ever forget the moment that i woke up and started to question what i was being indoctrinated into. It was my uncles ordination to be a priest in a huge cathedral. I was 11 years old. My 5 year old brother was stood next to me and as all the bishops etc were walking past us, inscence in the air, my uncle laying on the floor in front of me showing his subservience to god, my brother shouted at the top of his voice "who is god in this play!". Out of the mouth of babes! In my view organised religions are just shows, they are a way of organising and controling societies and they are very successful at it.
Incedentaly, the Bible you refer to is actually a document that has been translated from hebrew, via greek and latin before making it to english. My uncle is currently translating the original hebrew bible text directly into english. There is a huge amount that has been mistranslated due to the various steps it has been through.
You are entitled to your opinions on religion, i respect those. Dont try preaching to me about it or telling me the bible is the truth because you arent even reading an original text, even in the original text it's a story book, some based on actual ocurances, some not.
My phylosophy on ever lasting life is very simple. I obviously believe when i die thats the end for me. The only way people live on is through the people you touch whilst you are alive. If you can do good for others and live a life where you make a positive diference to peoples lives then you will live on through those actions. The world would be a much better place if everyone shared that view and were able to be truly non-predjudiced, be it religion, colour or sex.
as to the death penalty, i have said it before and i wont ever change my views. It isnt a deterant. Inocent people do die. There is no benefit to it. Bringing it back will not reduce crimes that affect us daily such as theft and violent attacks. The only thing that will change our society is enforcement of the law and removing the people who do us harm from society. 99.99% of those wouldnt be subject to the death penalty even if it were reintroduced. It wont help us. Sounds tough though doesnt it?
What really gets me is that religous people call those who dont believe uneducated or blind or even foolish. Being an athiest is much harder than being religeous because it means you basically have no life after death, you dont have time for forgiveness later, your life is it and then it's over. The concept of that is a cruel thing because when loved ones die it means they are gone forever.
My own background is one of a great deal of education in religion. My Uncle was a priest, my cousin is a priest, i was an alter boy at 6 years old, i studied the bible, i am very knowledgable about christianity. I choose to see religion as i find it.
Religions come and go, 2000 years (christian timespan) is nothing in the history of the human being, never mind this planet and the various life forms that have lived upon it. The absurdity of organised religions being the answer and you must follow a set ruling and lifestyle by this religion is immense in my view. There is more value in the concept of a god although i dont believe in that concept either myself. To acept that there is a god but no religion is far more credible and logical in my eyes.
I wont ever forget the moment that i woke up and started to question what i was being indoctrinated into. It was my uncles ordination to be a priest in a huge cathedral. I was 11 years old. My 5 year old brother was stood next to me and as all the bishops etc were walking past us, inscence in the air, my uncle laying on the floor in front of me showing his subservience to god, my brother shouted at the top of his voice "who is god in this play!". Out of the mouth of babes! In my view organised religions are just shows, they are a way of organising and controling societies and they are very successful at it.
Incedentaly, the Bible you refer to is actually a document that has been translated from hebrew, via greek and latin before making it to english. My uncle is currently translating the original hebrew bible text directly into english. There is a huge amount that has been mistranslated due to the various steps it has been through.
You are entitled to your opinions on religion, i respect those. Dont try preaching to me about it or telling me the bible is the truth because you arent even reading an original text, even in the original text it's a story book, some based on actual ocurances, some not.
My phylosophy on ever lasting life is very simple. I obviously believe when i die thats the end for me. The only way people live on is through the people you touch whilst you are alive. If you can do good for others and live a life where you make a positive diference to peoples lives then you will live on through those actions. The world would be a much better place if everyone shared that view and were able to be truly non-predjudiced, be it religion, colour or sex.
as to the death penalty, i have said it before and i wont ever change my views. It isnt a deterant. Inocent people do die. There is no benefit to it. Bringing it back will not reduce crimes that affect us daily such as theft and violent attacks. The only thing that will change our society is enforcement of the law and removing the people who do us harm from society. 99.99% of those wouldnt be subject to the death penalty even if it were reintroduced. It wont help us. Sounds tough though doesnt it?
14 March 2002, 02:52 AM
#155
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I neither believe nor do I reject the belief 
I am exploring the whole subject with an open mind and eyes.
All very, very interesting reading. When I have finally had some sleep, I shall endeavour to provide some more input to this thread.
Pete, you are the master 
(But don't tell everyone I said that)
Cheers,
Michelle.
I am exploring the whole subject with an open mind and eyes.
All very, very interesting reading. When I have finally had some sleep, I shall endeavour to provide some more input to this thread.
Pete, you are the master
(But don't tell everyone I said that
)Cheers,
Michelle.
14 March 2002, 06:49 AM
#156
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All I asked for was proof, that is repeatable, reliable, consistent proof - this is no more that any good investigative scientist would require to order to ratify the existence of any theory, action or mechanics.. Give me that and I'll be a true follower..
cheerio
cheerio
14 March 2002, 08:41 AM
#157
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 945
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scrappydoo I have read the 3 pages of posts since last night and it makes for very interesting reading I have to say.
Couple of points though because your posts stand out from most of the rest, Claudius comes in with his usual style of post and yes a comment which you find offensive and you threaten to hunt him down, very interesting from a religious man who claims we have no right to judge people!
Anyone who does not see the light like yourself is ignorant and you cannot educate pork in your words.
Like I said before I believe to a certain extent but I don’t threaten people if they have an opinion different to mine that’s how religious wars start mate.
Daz.
[Edited by Darren Thompson - 3/14/2002 8:43:25 AM]
[Edited by Darren Thompson - 3/14/2002 8:44:18 AM]
Couple of points though because your posts stand out from most of the rest, Claudius comes in with his usual style of post and yes a comment which you find offensive and you threaten to hunt him down, very interesting from a religious man who claims we have no right to judge people!
Anyone who does not see the light like yourself is ignorant and you cannot educate pork in your words.
Like I said before I believe to a certain extent but I don’t threaten people if they have an opinion different to mine that’s how religious wars start mate.
Daz.
[Edited by Darren Thompson - 3/14/2002 8:43:25 AM]
[Edited by Darren Thompson - 3/14/2002 8:44:18 AM]
14 March 2002, 08:48 AM
#158
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: South Hampshire
Posts: 4,818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blimey! Have you all calmed down a bit now?! It's important to respect what everyone thinks, I think you've got a bit carried away Scrappy m8 - chill! It's important not to disrespect people and to be tolerant of other peoples views or you risk enforcing the stereotypical view of Christians. 
pslewis - excellent points! Not to be forgotten alot in the Old Testment was rebuked by Jesus in the New (that should start a few debates in itself...)
Jen
pslewis - excellent points! Not to be forgotten alot in the Old Testment was rebuked by Jesus in the New (that should start a few debates in itself...)
Jen
14 March 2002, 08:56 AM
#160
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Live and let live, guys.
Quote from Robert Heinlein:
History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis.
Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.
But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
Quote from Robert Heinlein:
History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis.
Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.
But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
14 March 2002, 10:29 AM
#161
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scrappydoo,
I actually respect your right to believe whatever you want. However, your posts in this thread have attempted to shout down non-believers as if they are idiots.
The truth is that there is no hard evidence for the existence of God whatsoever. OK, my statement about eyewitness testimony was easy prey for some of your comments, but also, if we should blindly believe eye witness testimony, then why not believe in dragons, the Minotaur, cyclops, UFOs, witches etc.? Simply beacause it's rubbish!
The Roman records show nothing of the claims that were made for Jesus. Now if it may be easy for peole with blind faith to discard such detail, but the Romans documented everything. The claims that were made for the so called miracles were not made for some time, from somewhat dubious sources.
And what of he Dead Sea scrolls? They seem to paint a somewhat differetn picture of him and his followers. Unsurprisingly they are suppressed by the church lest we discover the true nature.
The Turin shroud, another fake.
Nothing about these beliefs can be proved. I admit that doesn't necessarily make them untrue, but it does make them extrememly unlikely.
Religion comes out of mans ability to acknowledge his existence. I think therefore I am - it puts us above the other living things on the planet. However, when we were first able to think, we were still very primitive and unable to contemplate what would happen when the physical body expired. That is where the idea of heaven and such comes from. They could never have imagined the nature of the creation of the Universe, big bang and quantum mechanics were still 2 million years away. How else could this world come into being? It's an easy mistake to make (like the world being flat, or do you still believe in that?)
If your faith gives you comfort, fine, good for you, but please don't preach something as fact that cannot be proved to be true.
I don't expect you to be convinced by any of the points put forward in theis thread, as Mr Felstead pointed out, you will never accept another view. However, non-believers tend to be more open minded about these things because if it was ever proved to be true, they would accept it. Believers will never accept that there is no God
Geezer
I actually respect your right to believe whatever you want. However, your posts in this thread have attempted to shout down non-believers as if they are idiots.
The truth is that there is no hard evidence for the existence of God whatsoever. OK, my statement about eyewitness testimony was easy prey for some of your comments, but also, if we should blindly believe eye witness testimony, then why not believe in dragons, the Minotaur, cyclops, UFOs, witches etc.? Simply beacause it's rubbish!
The Roman records show nothing of the claims that were made for Jesus. Now if it may be easy for peole with blind faith to discard such detail, but the Romans documented everything. The claims that were made for the so called miracles were not made for some time, from somewhat dubious sources.
And what of he Dead Sea scrolls? They seem to paint a somewhat differetn picture of him and his followers. Unsurprisingly they are suppressed by the church lest we discover the true nature.
The Turin shroud, another fake.
Nothing about these beliefs can be proved. I admit that doesn't necessarily make them untrue, but it does make them extrememly unlikely.
Religion comes out of mans ability to acknowledge his existence. I think therefore I am - it puts us above the other living things on the planet. However, when we were first able to think, we were still very primitive and unable to contemplate what would happen when the physical body expired. That is where the idea of heaven and such comes from. They could never have imagined the nature of the creation of the Universe, big bang and quantum mechanics were still 2 million years away. How else could this world come into being? It's an easy mistake to make (like the world being flat, or do you still believe in that?)
If your faith gives you comfort, fine, good for you, but please don't preach something as fact that cannot be proved to be true.
I don't expect you to be convinced by any of the points put forward in theis thread, as Mr Felstead pointed out, you will never accept another view. However, non-believers tend to be more open minded about these things because if it was ever proved to be true, they would accept it. Believers will never accept that there is no God
Geezer
14 March 2002, 10:46 AM
#162
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
killing convicted murders is the easy way out....I think that (Personaly) they should tie him\her down open them up from the adams apple down to the top of the groinal area..and then while he is alive start taking bits out!!...make it as agonising as possible!!(I am one sick puppy!!..I have actually got a sadistic smile on my face!!)i am going to go and commit my self!!
14 March 2002, 10:54 AM
#163
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bugger should have read all the posts before answering with the above...did not realise taht we are talking about god's...and goddesse's
believe what you believe in...be it god..allah..bagwhan..krishna..buddha..elvis..jesus ..
we are all on this mortal coil...lets live together in peace..
religion is the nuclear weapon of war mongering biggots..it's another reason to let off some steam...
peace and god speed to all man kind...
believe what you believe in...be it god..allah..bagwhan..krishna..buddha..elvis..jesus ..
we are all on this mortal coil...lets live together in peace..
religion is the nuclear weapon of war mongering biggots..it's another reason to let off some steam...
peace and god speed to all man kind...
14 March 2002, 11:17 AM
#164
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I ask a question?..having now read all the post's I am now very scared of 'scrappydoo'...he reminds me of a young and up-coming fanatic by the name of OBL(i am sure you all know who I mean!!..worlds most wanted man)
His words and mr Doos words are almost the same..'I have been sent here to speak and do Gods own work..come hither and believe..other wise i will skrike down upon thee'
Mr Bin Laden has the same views...(I am calling him MR just incase he and his cohorts are monitoring this site)..now I lost an uncle during the attacks on the Twin tower(102nd floor tower 1)now that was the work of a person who took word's from the Q'oran mixed the words up and (Dyslexia) and then took them litterally.
I am a Muslim but the extremists out there are well and truly whacked...so all you taliban and other extremist people's..Bugger off and let us do our sins in peace...god it's like living in the dark ages!!
His words and mr Doos words are almost the same..'I have been sent here to speak and do Gods own work..come hither and believe..other wise i will skrike down upon thee'
Mr Bin Laden has the same views...(I am calling him MR just incase he and his cohorts are monitoring this site)..now I lost an uncle during the attacks on the Twin tower(102nd floor tower 1)now that was the work of a person who took word's from the Q'oran mixed the words up and (Dyslexia) and then took them litterally.
I am a Muslim but the extremists out there are well and truly whacked...so all you taliban and other extremist people's..Bugger off and let us do our sins in peace...god it's like living in the dark ages!!
14 March 2002, 01:17 PM
#165
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys,
I am on lunch so I have not time to read through this encyclopedia subject!
In case someone has not said this already. The guy in question was abused by his parents to the point where he recieved four fractured skulls which were never treated!!! He suffered regular beatings and broken bones. He ended up with a constant piercing headache and took to drink and drugs to take the pain away.
Now I am sure that this has played a massive part in causing him to commit this terrible act, which says to me that he was failed by society. The thought of what he did makes me feel sick but we have to look at the cause in the first place. This isn't black or white and it annoys me when people say things like 'cut his guts out' etc.
It is pretty awful that he has been executed, as from what I have read he was insane and severly brain damaged when he committed the murder.
I am on lunch so I have not time to read through this encyclopedia subject!
In case someone has not said this already. The guy in question was abused by his parents to the point where he recieved four fractured skulls which were never treated!!! He suffered regular beatings and broken bones. He ended up with a constant piercing headache and took to drink and drugs to take the pain away.
Now I am sure that this has played a massive part in causing him to commit this terrible act, which says to me that he was failed by society. The thought of what he did makes me feel sick but we have to look at the cause in the first place. This isn't black or white and it annoys me when people say things like 'cut his guts out' etc.
It is pretty awful that he has been executed, as from what I have read he was insane and severly brain damaged when he committed the murder.
14 March 2002, 06:03 PM
#168
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is sad to see how people do not want to take all the factors into account, avoid reflection and just want to get "over and done" with such serious matters!
14 March 2002, 07:29 PM
#169
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 9,644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Veracocha
One of the best points I have read. It is so easy to balme "what is put in front of you".. I have a friend who has had to be put away at times due to Schizophenia . Most of the time there was no help or hope for him. He was pushed out on to the streets. He was dangerous to himself and others. He is covered in scars etc from been atacked etc. If he had hurt someone and he was capable ,I know the "real" him would have been upset. We (society) dont give a Monkeys. If these facts are true then that changes everything... It was not just his fault.
Too many times ill people are let out of hospitals without proper care and medicine. They commit murder rape etc. They cannot hold all the blame.
One of the best points I have read. It is so easy to balme "what is put in front of you".. I have a friend who has had to be put away at times due to Schizophenia . Most of the time there was no help or hope for him. He was pushed out on to the streets. He was dangerous to himself and others. He is covered in scars etc from been atacked etc. If he had hurt someone and he was capable ,I know the "real" him would have been upset. We (society) dont give a Monkeys. If these facts are true then that changes everything... It was not just his fault.
Too many times ill people are let out of hospitals without proper care and medicine. They commit murder rape etc. They cannot hold all the blame.
14 March 2002, 09:42 PM
#170
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok oK im getting a little tired now of all these posts and cant be bothered to read them anymore. Ok I know it was wrong what i said to claudius and i shouldnt have said it but he was more or less on the verge of abusing my mother, which im not having. So lets just leave it there. As for opinions/views, well perhaps im not the best defence for Christianity, as if it needed defending mind. I am only young and im learning new things about my beliefs everyday.
Regards to all
Scrappy...
Regards to all
Scrappy...
14 March 2002, 09:44 PM
#171
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok oK im getting a little tired now of all these posts and cant be bothered to read them anymore. Ok I know it was wrong what i said to claudius and i shouldnt have said it but he was more or less on the verge of abusing my mother, which im not having. So lets just leave it there. As for opinions/views, well perhaps im not the best defence for Christianity, as if it needed defending mind. I am only young and im learning new things about my beliefs everyday.
Regards to all
Scrappy...
Regards to all
Scrappy...
14 March 2002, 11:43 PM
#174
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Potters Bar
Posts: 2,924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That was one of the best threads I;ve read on Scoobynet with some great points raised.
Ultimately this issues should be how we avoid instances like the happening again. Detection and prevention of the catalyst for this behaviour should be societies focus.
IMHO I'm staggered that any logical human being can even comprehend the existance of God. Like beliving in faries and Santa Claus to me.
AllanB
Ultimately this issues should be how we avoid instances like the happening again. Detection and prevention of the catalyst for this behaviour should be societies focus.
IMHO I'm staggered that any logical human being can even comprehend the existance of God. Like beliving in faries and Santa Claus to me.
AllanB
03 December 2002, 11:22 PM
#175
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scappy - true but could you live with the fact that he will do it again and again? I'm not having a go at your way of thinking.
I do agree that it would make us no better than him, but what did the poor girl do to derseve what he did, where as he did?
It's not a easy subject it's not black and white it's more of a grey area
rant over I will never open my mouth again (you all wish)
[Edited by saxovts2000 - 3/12/2002 11:24:20 PM]
I do agree that it would make us no better than him, but what did the poor girl do to derseve what he did, where as he did?
It's not a easy subject it's not black and white it's more of a grey area
rant over I will never open my mouth again (you all wish)
[Edited by saxovts2000 - 3/12/2002 11:24:20 PM]
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post