f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yes it would help, but under current regulations would be replaced by a single diffuser as before which still disrupts the air.

What we have here are some very clever people who will obviously exploit every rule to give them an advantage. The creation of 'dirty air' from the diffuser is a by product of what it does, but the aero engineers obviously realise the advantage in stopping a competitor from running close behind and hence have exploited the 'dirty air' creation as much as they can without damaging the diffuser's prime role in providing rear end stability.

What we need is either a ruling banning diffusers or a gentleman's agreement between the teams to not use them a bit like they did with KERS.

I am not sure on the overtaking statistics and there probably is a propensity to look back on yesteryear with rose tinted spectacles but then again I don't recall the likes of the Trulli train 15/20 years ago and that is a direct result of the aero/dirty air scenario combined wth some of the sanitised tracks used today of course.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

What makes a car easy to follow, is not necessarily what makes a car quick on a single lap. Also remember the new draconian penalties that are now handed left right and centre. May be this has caused a few driver's to sit back rather than be super aggressive.

It is tough to pass in F1 and to be honest, that is the way it should be.

Leslie

Surely most overtaking is done on the entry to or the exit from corners. The lack of downforce because of the aerodynamic interference is what makes that so difficult to do. Its the outbraking and cornering which makes it possible in the first place. Overtaking along the straight is largely dependent on excess power and a good slipstreaming from out of a corner.

I will be sorry if yet another major team leaves F1.

I think NSR is a good place for these threads since there are not a lot of Scoobies in F1.

Les

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Careful Les, don't upset those who are obviously on their 'monthly'!

urban

iTrader: (1)

Yes outbraking etc is good, and getting better drive out of the corner........
But my point is its taken a step backwards I suppose mostly because of the aerodynamic "issues"
They can't follow closely enough without as I said taking a "dive" up the inside because following too closely upsets the follower then when they arrive at the corner he has no stability anymore and looses out.

Give purvis another tampon there someone

Leslie

Yes Urban, just what I meant of course, But the fact remains that if the aerodynamic interference problems were removed, most of the overtaking attempts would be in the same places. Might not be a bad idea to ban any kind of wings perhap's! They would have to concentrate on getting better roadholding from suspension design which would yield further benefits to road cars. That was one of the orginal ideas behind F1 anyway.

Les

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Ouch, that was a bit below the belt!

Out-braking someone to pass is the messy way to overtake. The clean overtakes are when the car behind gets better traction and drive coming out of the corner. After the cars have braked from say 180mph to 70mph, aerodynamics are out of the equation, meaning mechanical grip is far more of a priority. The return to slicks this year has helped, but there is a limit (unless you bring back traction control) to how well you can lay 750bhp on the tarmac. This is where the driver comes in.

The only way to allow the driver behind to get a lot closer is to ban the diffusers as well as the front and rear wings. This will mean that other categories will be a lot faster than F1, making a mockery of the sport. Plus the cars will look pathetic!

Show me a car (road or race) that doesn't create turbulence at 150mph+.

I really don't see how you will cure the problem.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Nor do I Mr Purvis.

Thats for the officials and engineers to sort out

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Yes, but the fact that these super designers/engineers haven't come up with a successful solution, goes to show that there isn't a 'quick fix' like a lot of people on here think.
Plus, I am sure that making their car easier to overtake isn't especially important to most F1 designers!

Maybe they should concentrate on harnessing the turbulant air rather than trying to reduce it.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

That is just it though, there is a quick fix and the second part of your post explains perfectly well why it has not been implemented.

Yes any car travelling at that sort of speed will create turbulence, but before the advent of diffusers the effect was much more limited.

There is no need to ban all wings or stuff like that, just remove the diffusers and reduce the aero performance a little. Problem solved.

Leslie

The point I made though was that in the first place, aerodynamics aids to the extent that they are used in F1 cannot be said to encourage any real improvement in road cars. We can't go fast enough to get any real advantage on public roads.

If however the wings etc were banned, then the designer's efforts would be forced into developing better roadholding from the suspension design rather than as now having almost solid suspension and forcing the cars onto the road with the wings to make the tyres stick because of the extra apparent weight of the car.

This was how it was before the days of massive wings etc. and was the major reason for the improved roadholding of family cars over that of years ago.

F1 was originally quoted as finding out better design for road cars by experiment and that is exactly what happened when you compare a modern road car with those rough old bangers from years ago.

I don't think that wings etc prove a thing of practical use these days and as we have seen, they have all but destroyed the racing spectacle now.

Les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I think we are singing for the same hymn sheet Les, reduced aero and no diffusers is the way to go IMO.

FlightMan

Ban carbon brakes. Increase the braking distance by 100% and you will see some more overtaking. With carbon the braking ditances are so short late braking is almost impossible.

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

I think the thing that people tend to forget when talking about F1 aerodynamics etc, is that F1 is supposed to be the pinical of the sport. It's all well and good to say 'remove all wings' but then we'd just end up with a load of Formula Fords running around with cornering speeds less than some touring cars!

I think this year's rules went a long way to making the cars less sensitive to aerodynamic disturbance in front of them, but the double diffuser made the wake of cars worse than had been originally intended by these rules.

In the past, it was suggested that F1 cars could have a split rear rear wing, which would actually make it easier for a following car to corner and gain a tow down a straight. For reasons I can't remember (possibly an aesthetics basis) this type of design hasn't been pursued.

Further reducing the rear diffuser would help the current follow closer through bends, but it has to be a compromise between handling and allowing a car to follow close enough to be able to get a tow down the next straight.

Banning carbon brakes could be another solution, but with the lack of refuelling, steel brakes may not be able to cope for a full race distance.

Leslie

I am afraid your idea of a bunch of Formula Fords if you remove the wings is quite wrong. Many of us will remember the days before aerofoils appeared on F1 cars and I can assure you that the cars looked far better for a start and it was easy to recognise which ones they actually were too. If you find that hard to believe, try the Goodwood Revival and see what the old F1 cars used to look like. The sight of an ERA in a full blooded 4 wheel drift through Woodcote is more than well worth seeing!

If wings were dumped, the cornering speeds would reduce initially until the designers started to learn how to design a proper suspension again. The point is of course, the lack of aerodynamic downforce is the same for all. To say the the cars would be slower in the corners than the saloon "bumper or stock" cars is a total exaggeration. The spectacle would be restored to F1 racing with much closer racing and the drivers being able to demonstrate their abilities in relation to each other.

Of course F1 is the pinnacle of racing as it always has been. Making it necessary for the designers to get to work on suspension design again would underline that and also produce extra knowledge for road going cars and their handling as happened in the past.

Absolutely no advantage that I can see in banning carbon brakes.

So many are complaining about the boredom level in F1 at the moment. Next year we will lose the tactical interest when refuelling is stopped and the races will tend to become even more of a procession. If things are left as they are with only stops for tyres then believe me it will get considerably worse.

Something radical needs to change in F1 and I think that the most direct thing would be to bin the wings.

Les