About time the Australian & British Governments Apologised
18 November 2009, 12:27 PM
#34
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Again I agree with much of what you say - however the 'victims' have formed a collective and collectively have stated that this is what they wanted.
Ultimately how each individual responds is their choice of course, it is their moments of decision that their destiny is shaped. Which is exactly what I would say to someone if I was coaching them through such an experience.
Even allowing for the political dimension I still think it is appropriate for the Office to accept responsibility. This can be a big step for many victims and is a common pattern even though their experiences and choices in life may be fundementally different.
Victims of all sorts of crime, especially personal crimes of abuse and rape have a very common pattern of feeling somehow responsible. Bringing the perpetrator to 'justice' is often less about vengence and more about understanding that maybe it wasn't their fault after all, someone else was responsible.
For me, to weigh up the political gain against the potential benefit to the victims at no real cost - I would take the latter.
Ultimately how each individual responds is their choice of course, it is their moments of decision that their destiny is shaped. Which is exactly what I would say to someone if I was coaching them through such an experience.
Even allowing for the political dimension I still think it is appropriate for the Office to accept responsibility. This can be a big step for many victims and is a common pattern even though their experiences and choices in life may be fundementally different.
Victims of all sorts of crime, especially personal crimes of abuse and rape have a very common pattern of feeling somehow responsible. Bringing the perpetrator to 'justice' is often less about vengence and more about understanding that maybe it wasn't their fault after all, someone else was responsible.
For me, to weigh up the political gain against the potential benefit to the victims at no real cost - I would take the latter.
18 November 2009, 12:35 PM
#35
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I am glad you remember those times. A lot of what you say is true of course, but I remember back a bit earlier than that and what was so much better was peoples' attitude in general. Most thought of others before themselves, there was less of the "look after number one" and also there was less crime and petty thieving. Mugging with violence of course had not been heard of in this country. People felt in general that they could trust others and that they would not be ripped off. If anyone was seen to be in trouble for some reason, there would always be someone else who would try to help.
It was even felt that politicians could be trusted and that was rarely misplaced. Anyone who screwed up thorough his own fault or who was caught fiddling would resign from the job without question.
Yes the medical abilities and facilities were not as advanced as now of course and we were still learning about diseases and how to cure them. Most lived a fairly healthy life though, not so much of the fast food about which was not a bad thing. Healthy eating then was purely a natural way to live anyway.
When you take an enquiring look at the world today and the way life in general is heading with selfish people jockeying for more and more power and the advantages financial and otherwise which they are only too happy to take full advantage of, there are good reasons for thinking well of earlier times.
We are being herded together now and being fooled also into what will become an Orwellian existence-and I can assure you, that will not be very nice!
Les
It was even felt that politicians could be trusted and that was rarely misplaced. Anyone who screwed up thorough his own fault or who was caught fiddling would resign from the job without question.
Yes the medical abilities and facilities were not as advanced as now of course and we were still learning about diseases and how to cure them. Most lived a fairly healthy life though, not so much of the fast food about which was not a bad thing. Healthy eating then was purely a natural way to live anyway.
When you take an enquiring look at the world today and the way life in general is heading with selfish people jockeying for more and more power and the advantages financial and otherwise which they are only too happy to take full advantage of, there are good reasons for thinking well of earlier times.
We are being herded together now and being fooled also into what will become an Orwellian existence-and I can assure you, that will not be very nice!
Les
If you do then you undermine any form of credibility in your arguments.
I am pretty sure that highway robbery was a form of mugging with violence which happened three hundred years ago and was made (in)famous by Dick Turpin. I am sure it happened in various forms before then and I am sure there have been many name and instances of it since then.
Even the Second World War target zones such as London are romanticised by 'all the pulling together' when in reality there was an equal amount of less well reported looting, exploitation, rape, assault and general non-dogoodery.
And I agree with others on this thread - I think history will clearly point to one politician who turned the tide from the collective to the individual more than any other politician in British history. And that politician was not from Labour, Old or New, that politician created the infamous, ME, ME, ME Eighties that transformed this nation forever.
Trout
18 November 2009, 12:50 PM
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No Trout, you misunderstood me again!
Of course we have always had thieving highwaymen etc in the past, but with the best will in the world,I honestly cannot say that my personal memories go back 300 years!
Yes no doubt there was pillaging etc during WW2 but not as widespread as you say, and there was an awful lot of help from neighbours for the less fortunate in every possible way to the point of self sacrifice of their own possessions.
It is quite true however that there was a period of time as I described when you could walk the streets anywhere at night and not expect to get some thug try to rob you and to hit or knife you if he felt like it. All that went with everything else that I was describing about those times.
People in general were expected to behave in an honest manner, and most of them did.
PS. I also remember the starting point of the greed philosophy just as you mentioned.
Les
Of course we have always had thieving highwaymen etc in the past, but with the best will in the world,I honestly cannot say that my personal memories go back 300 years!
Yes no doubt there was pillaging etc during WW2 but not as widespread as you say, and there was an awful lot of help from neighbours for the less fortunate in every possible way to the point of self sacrifice of their own possessions.
It is quite true however that there was a period of time as I described when you could walk the streets anywhere at night and not expect to get some thug try to rob you and to hit or knife you if he felt like it. All that went with everything else that I was describing about those times.
People in general were expected to behave in an honest manner, and most of them did.
PS. I also remember the starting point of the greed philosophy just as you mentioned.
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 18 November 2009 at 12:53 PM.
18 November 2009, 01:04 PM
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No Trout, you misunderstood me again!
Of course we have always had thieving highwaymen etc in the past, but with the best will in the world,I honestly cannot say that my personal memories go back 300 years!
Yes no doubt there was pillaging etc during WW2 but not as widespread as you say, and there was an awful lot of help from neighbours for the less fortunate in every possible way to the point of self sacrifice of their own possessions.
It is quite true however that there was a period of time as I described when you could walk the streets anywhere at night and not expect to get some thug try to rob you and to hit or knife you if he felt like it. All that went with everything else that I was describing about those times.
People in general were expected to behave in an honest manner, and most of them did.
PS. I also remember the starting point of the greed philosophy just as you mentioned.
Les
Of course we have always had thieving highwaymen etc in the past, but with the best will in the world,I honestly cannot say that my personal memories go back 300 years!
Yes no doubt there was pillaging etc during WW2 but not as widespread as you say, and there was an awful lot of help from neighbours for the less fortunate in every possible way to the point of self sacrifice of their own possessions.
It is quite true however that there was a period of time as I described when you could walk the streets anywhere at night and not expect to get some thug try to rob you and to hit or knife you if he felt like it. All that went with everything else that I was describing about those times.
People in general were expected to behave in an honest manner, and most of them did.
PS. I also remember the starting point of the greed philosophy just as you mentioned.
Les
Les
I agree there has been a general break down in respect over the past 30 years, but that isn't this governments fault (or any governments exclusive fault) and you're wrong to keep blaming governments for such things, as it (in part) absolves individuals of their responsibilities, which is the problem in the first place...'it's not my fault, it's the governments'!!
18 November 2009, 01:08 PM
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One of the challenges Les it that actually the fear of crime (such as mugging or assault) is much higher now than it has been in the past.
Part fueled by 'us' growing older and partly fueled by hysterical media. I know it is tempting fate, however I have only ever been approached in the street with the menace of violence, once in the '70s and once in the '80s. So I wear different rose tinted spectacles
Part fueled by 'us' growing older and partly fueled by hysterical media. I know it is tempting fate, however I have only ever been approached in the street with the menace of violence, once in the '70s and once in the '80s. So I wear different rose tinted spectacles
18 November 2009, 01:50 PM
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Everything is now looking rosy. In the Queen's speech Flash promised a white Xmas every year, summers would always be like in the Darlin' Bud's of May and all 'Bobbies' would have to ride 'sit up and beg' bicycles so they can connect with the public.
Always knew Flash would turn up trumps .....
Dave
Always knew Flash would turn up trumps .....
Dave
18 November 2009, 02:43 PM
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Everything is now looking rosy. In the Queen's speech Flash promised a white Xmas every year, summers would always be like in the Darlin' Bud's of May and all 'Bobbies' would have to ride 'sit up and beg' bicycles so they can connect with the public.
Always knew Flash would turn up trumps .....
Dave
Always knew Flash would turn up trumps .....
Dave
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