StephenDone

Have a look at dyno.scoobynet. The figures for a full decat with K&N are quite high - there's a '99 on there with 267BHP on decat & K&N. We also remove a point of fuel at the top so the car doesn't run quite so rich. You only see a small increase with std exhaust because it is restrictive.

Please quote surname when discussing Jasons, since there's a lot of 'em about ! 'Hubble' had driveability, 'May' had performance.

Steve

StephenDone

>Is it reasonable to say you could blow up your engine by overdoing
>boost, timing or leanness, but all give you power up to a point?
>You pick your own threshold. If you want fit and forget and do not
>tweak your settings or monitor, or do not run high octane, or want
>a generic map for lots of cars you have to be conservative?
>
You got it.

Steve

ScoobySnack

Hi Catflap....

I'm one of the Jasons (May)... with the Delta ECU (performance one)

Originally my MY00 would have produced in the region of 220Bhp & 215lf/ft torque when in standard form with an AE802 (Green Label) ECU.

I then decatted it to produce 243Bhp & 239lb/ft torque. Still had the AE802 ECU. When I physically changed this ECU myself to an AE800 (Black Label) things got better, mainly 0.3 PSI more boost and better response over 5000rpm. IMHO it probably was only a few bhp and lb/ft torque, but the car felt different.

Finally I had the ECU downloaded with the performance Delta program and it produced 269Bhp & 260lb/ft torque. Permanent all the way........

As I understand it you can have either..

1) an ECU download back to an AE800 etc for about £150???? (driveability )

or

2) an ECU download with the Delta map for approx £700????? (performance)

Hope this helps

J

catflap

No soory mate i still dont understand

My point is that i have a 801, and it as standard does 220? as does you 802

Yet it s said that the ecu is only for 802`s? well if an 802 does 220 and a 801 does 220, shouldit not give gains to the 801? do you see my confusion?


im trying to assess if i can purchase the £150 ecu, plug it in to my car (ae801) and see a gain as you have, as my car is at the same spec your is (befor you changed the ecu)

Thnx

P.s how much diff did it make? 260 odd s closing on them funny sti`s, whatever thay are, people talk about LOL

catflap

john banks

I am not a believer in rolling roads, so although your logic is impeccable, I can't see the need to change you 801 to an 800. A performance map would surely help though.

I can say that following a std P1 with a decat MY00 with 800 (MY99 black label) ECU with a Dawes we did not keep up on the straights until we put in a PPP ECU and had about 17 PSI midrange and a much phatter torque curve than any remotely standard car with only breathing mods would ever have. It takes quite a lot to chase a bigger turbo car with shorter ratios!

nom

If you take account of what has been mentioned a few times as a slightly optimistic RR at PE (by ~20bhp...)
All cars decatted with 57i:
AE802 before 'performance' delta ECU: 214bhp
AE801 at a different RR (not 'adjusted'): 235bhp
AE802 with 'performance' delta ECU: 248bhp

All it is is more numbers, but it's mentioned again & again how much the rolling-roads can be off, and that they should only be used to compare changes made to a single car on a single day (preferably all at the same time as well ). When the numbers mentioned here are reduced by 20bhp, they look quite conservative, and make sense.
Well, that's one explanation anyway

StephenDone

PE's RR is extremely accurate when performing comparative tests on the same dyno. You can do 5 runs, and only get diffs of +- a couple fo BHP once the car is warm.

Some may say it reads high, but there were a group of S3s down a while back, and their power is designed to be constant (based on air flow rather than boost). Many cars got spot on the book figure. Figures were so good, they could tell which cars had been for their first service (where dealers change the ECU map).

Air temps can make a massive difference though. But that's life. If you're doing your tests scientifically, then a rollng road is a godsend - you can hold the car at any RPM and any load while mapping. How could you do this on the road ??? Afterwards you of course need to take it on the road since temps and boost will act differently.

Steve

mutant_matt

Just to backup Stephen, I have been on PE's rollers three times (each Scoob RR days ). Last Summer my MY00 (ae802) with just PPP BB got 222bhp/211ft-lbs when a completely standard MY00 got 214bhp/208ft-lbs (which IIRC is the book figure).

My same car a couple of months back (freezing day) got 229bhp/221ft-lbs which seems reasonable. On this same day Moe got something like 328bhp and Trout got something like 340?

A couple of weeks ago (still bloody cold) I got 244bhp/247ft-lbs after fitting the Dawes and holding approx 0.2bar more boost (with faster spool up and less tail off) - which once again seems quite reasonable. On this same day my friend's Elise 111S got the book figure of 143bhp, Moe got something like 332(?) and Trout got 336(?). It seems to me that PE's rollers *seem* to be quite accurate and if nothing else, certainly consistent between runs, even when taken on differing days (as long as the weather is similar ).

Matt

madou

How does a current re-map for a MY98 UK differ from the original PE Phase One ECU upgrade, as still advertised on http://www.powerengineering.co.uk/subaru/ ?

Impressed by recent Ecutek work on MY 99/00, but don't wish to part with money for a MY98 UK map which has the "issues" encountered first time round

StephenDone

I don't work for PE, Madou. Perhaps you should speak to them. People have been making such a meal of this, and most people have no idea what the issues were.

PE mapped about 100 Phase-I cars. 3 had problems. One spat off its wastegate pipe shortly after the car left PE. One did a big end on a track day 3 months after conversion, having been serviced (not by PE) the day before and was only half full of engine oil. The third was a genuine error made whilst mapping - the car failed on the rollers, and PE paid for a new engine build without quibble.

If you don't know first hand what the problems were, then please don't post.

Having seen this happen to PE, is exactly the reason why I would only release the mapping software to tuners, as discussed earlier. Attitudes would have to change before I did.

<rant mode off>

Steve

HarryBoy

I hope this will answer catfalp's question. The 'drivability' map PE/ECUTEK supply is based on an 801 map not an 800 map.

The map is called Tek1, it is a slightly tweaked 801 map. The tweaks are as Stephen has said, some holes in fueling in the 801 map where adjusted.

If you have an 801 map now then the Tek1 map is not going to give you +30 BHP or more torque. If you have an 801 map then it's the 'performance' map that you need (Tek2 I am lead to believe)

Harry

lordlucan

Guess I must have a quick Scoob then, anyway you look at it my before run on the same day produced 234bhp, after the driveabilty upgrade it produced 268bhp. Not bad for 150 pounds !!
And on the road at the weekend had a blast with an STI7 from 80 to 130 and we pulled away slightly, however the STI only had 4000 miles on the clock so was still a little tight.
The figures may be for pub talk, however driving the car is a different story, I was on the verge of buying a new car, after this upgrade im keeping my car, what does that tell you.

Will I go for Stephens performance map ? Well maybe to get some more torque...Who knows, ill keep saving my pennies.

Jase Hubble

HarryBoy

Hi Jase, but you went from an 802 to the Tek1, right?

Catflap already has and 801. He 'aint gonna get +30BHP with the Tek1 from ECUTEK.

Harry

nom

Another Tek2 here, then, done this morning.
Gone from 237bhp 22lbs/ft to 269bhp 246lbs/ft. So a good 30 bhp - torque was noted as being down on what it should be. This is 'cos the boost was maxing at 0.9bar rather than 1.1ish where it was meant to - the map was right, but the ECU is learning what's going on & is 'holding back' at the moment (or was then, anyway). So, going back there in a week or so to check up again (when the ECU should have worked out it can boost higher!). I presume this is something to do with the 2 dimensional rather than 1 dimensional map & aims & loads, etc. etc. Car did improve noticably after a while, so it looks like it's behaving as expected...
Comparing it to the Dawes is a more complicated thing! There's less of a thump now when the turbo does its thang - the power comes in more smoothly and hangs in there better (to me, anyway), it is more predictable & 'ready to go'. Overall quicker & easier to drive - I almost feel like saying more relaxing, but that's not quite it . Feels like a more thought-out engine - less rough & ready.
Rather harder to compare it to a non-Dawes car as I've been driving with one for long enough I can't remember what it's like without one!
If you hadn't already guessed, I'm not too good at explaining these things
Looking forward to the check-over next week to see how things are coming along!

john banks

I expect you are gaining most in smoothness on the part throttle response compared with the Dawes. Even with a bleed hole the original ECU is more "linear" in relation to throttle.

catflap

Harryboy

That the explanation i needed.

But the tek 2 is that not the £600 map? or am i mistaken (appologes if im wrong)

This i simply can not afford, yet, and would have to consider the options very cairfully, if i am to pay a premeum, then i will think very carfully about my options, and will more or less have the choice of any ecu (within reason, lnk, unichp ect)

The reason the tek1 was so fantastic (i think) is that due to the prce.

My marketing tp LOL keep the prce of the tek2 down(just coz want one) and youll sway the ballence of people to your side of the fence.

Just my (cheepskate) 2 pennys worth

HarryBoy

Hi Catflap,

I know I like cheap mod's too, hence the love for Dawes!

The Tek2 map as I understand it is a PPP type map that will be plug-n-go like the Tek1 map but it will have more get up and go and a larger price tag.

The 625+VAT map is a RR custom setup map tailored to your car.

Stephen, correct me if I am wrong on any of the above.

Harry

nom

Yep, tek2 is basically the PE phase1 thing, but for the only-recently-programmable ECUs, 800,801 & 802.
The tek1 is only any use for 802s, as all it does is make them 801s (with a bit extra to get rid of the lean spot when the turbo spools up).
Or that's my understanding anyway! The bit that complicates things is the Jason (lordlucan type ) results, which are pretty much the tek2 ones...

HarryBoy

Thanks Nom,

So Stephen can you clarify if Jase car map is a 'custom' one or is it the map that is now sold as Tek1.

Harry

catflap

hang on, some of us thing the tek2 is a plug and play, others thing its the phase 1 at pe for 99`s

Steve can you also clafrify this please

StephenDone

Hi Guys,

Ok....

The Tek1 & Tek2 both have roughly the same peak power figure, though the Tek 2 has more torque through the rev range because it runs higher boost in the mid range. This is because both maps tail off the boost at high revs to protect the engine - peak power is produced high up the rev range where both map run pretty much the same boost.

Tek1 is available mail order, or fitted by PE.
The Tek2 is not available mail order yet. We want to see lots of cars running well before we do this.
PE will do a custom mapping session for 625+VAT. This involves taking our tek2 map and applying any changes requested, plus tweaking it to the car. E.g. getting the boost control accurate, filling in lean/rich spot etc. Once we have built up a good database of mapping, we will release the Tek2 by mail order at £500.

You can get a driveability map for your '801 if you like, though the difference will be much smaller than going from an '802. EcuTek offer a full money back guarantee, so if you want to clear it up once and for all, someone try it and see !

By contacting EcuTek direct, you can currently order a Tek1 (Driveability map) and very soon DeltaDash diagnostics and logging software - we are just waiting for a hardware delivery now.
From PE, you can get a Tek1 fitted (they are EcuTek's first dealer), or book in for a custom session.

Hope this all makes sense.

Steve

scottdg

OK guys, yet another happy customer here. Merv got 252bhp from the car pre: ECUTEK 1 upgrade (full de-cat system). After saw 258 but torque was way up to 240 odd (can't remember exact figure as don't have graph to hand). Anyway, the real difference was on the journey home, certainly felt much, much better - smoother, faster and awesome mid to top!!
On with the induction Kit and back on the octane booster and I should be seeing a realistic 265bhp.

It's like a new car - go and do it.

Thanks again to all at ECUTEK & PE.

A very happy, Scottdg

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

I'm still puzzled so perhaps I'll give it the money back trial

I recorded 234BHP a couple of months ago at PE RR with 233lbs, not bad for a MY00 std exhaust on an AE802. I've now slapped in an AE801 and the driveability has improved BUT not to + 30BHP's worth.

The question is would I see a bigger/any gain with the TEK1 map and why?

I'm booked into the next group PE RR day soon, I can then make a definitive comparison between AE802 and AE801 without any other mods.

F

HarryBoy

"Hope this all makes sense.

Steve "

Yes it does, thanks Steve for clearing that up.

Harry

CraigCH

I have an MY00 and would be interested to know why Subaru made the later ECU (802) worse than the previous one? Surely with the increased spotlight on the car and the competition with the mitsu evo they would have got the best possible performance from the newer car.Why take a step backwards? I thought the newer ECU (802) overfuelled more than the last one(801) so it cannot be for emmissions reasons, and if it's for in cylinder cooling then there must be a reason why they felt they needed it. Although as far as I know the MY99 doesn't have any engine reliability problems so why change for the MY00. I would be very interested in the driveability ECU but it seem's a strange step to go back to effectively an older cars setup without knowing why the new one was changed. Can anyone shed any light?
Cheers
Craig

ScoobyJawa

The crux of it was that the 802 was made to pass tighter emissions regs and thus the change........

T-uk

or possibly to make the wrx/sti7 performance seem better .

[Edited by T-uk - 3/20/2002 10:52:34 AM]

StephenDone

My guess was the MAF sensor.

As time went on, more MAF sensors were failing on cars. Perhaps the increase in richness was to reduce warranty claims when this was happening - with a bad MAF, car can run leaner at the top end. In which case the moral of the story: If you think there's something wrong, get it looked at. I've heard that different 99s have different numbers of cats (may or may not be true - I haven't confirmed myself). Perhaps the addition of more CAT strangulation raised EGTs and the extra fuel was to counter the temperature rise. Seeing as most people have derestricted there exhausts, their EGTs will be a little lower anyway. But like I said, _I_ wouldn't listen to me, I only produce the software, and don't do the tuning ;-)

Steve

Steve

StephenDone

>or possibly to make the wrx/sti7 performance seem better
>
It is bad isn't it ! I've got one at the moment for testing DeltaDash. Feels like there's a rubber band between the accelerator and the engine, compared with driving mine.

Is it me, or does an unmodified 00MY UK Turbo with an ae802 ECU get well _below_ the book figures for power ? An ae801 got 217BHP, whilst an ae802 got 202BHP. And who said PE's rollers read high, I ask you ?

Hmmm, I'm thinking of a phrase...it's coming.....trade descriptions - yes, that was it.

Steve

T-uk

Steve,

so when are you going to send john banks and I one of your ECU's to test so we can stop all the hype on these fancy bleed valves .a PPP type with standard boost pipes would be nice .I like the sounds of more fuel low down but would like to test the less fuel higher up on track.