Coc-ker

iTrader: (1)

Charity starts at home. I don't think a penny should leave this country in 'aid' while we still have unemployment, homeless, deteriorating road networks, illegal immigration, crime etc.

dpb

You can bet your life the powers that be have figured a way of getting a three fold return on our investment

dpb

Because there is no federal state off a Africa as yet - maybe there should be

Therefore why should they - The buliding of the infrastructe alone should/has created jobs ,the hotels are fully booked ( this was in August when i was there ) and Oliver Tambo airport makes Gatwick look like a hovel

David Lock

Interesting divide on SN.

Those that couldn't give a toss about other citizens of the world and feel that UK should look after UK....

And those that feel that it is right to help others less fortunate who happen to live a few thousand miles away - even though they might have contributed to their own misery.

I am not going to pass judgment on who is right except to say that I think one's views change as you get older.

dl

The Zohan

Not a case of not giving a to$$ David

The UK has huge debts that we will struggle to pay, weh ave child poverty and al sorts of good and needy causes here in the UK - So why are we funding roads in other countries when we need money to be spent here - makes little sense.

Yes, charity does begin at home

hodgy0_2

would you support a real attempt at wealth redistribution then -- here in the UK, to alleviate child poverty (although some on this forum would deny it actually exists in the UK)

or maybe it should be all left to charity, do away with 90% of taxes -- in which case the Donkey Sanctury in Dorset, will do very well, so every cloud!!!!

dpb

For real ?

Martin2005

I do wish you'd learn to sign off without giving the usuall insults.

Overseas aid I'm sure could be made far more effective and efficient and I'd support every effort to do that. There thats the end of that argument, assuming you believe we should be a donater of overseas aid in the first place?

There's no point in posting up link you're right, because you only EVER post up links to articles that make a point you agree with.

Leslie

I bet I am not far out when I say that the majority of aid given winds up in the pockets of corrupt leaders.

Les

hodgy0_2

and sometimes even corrupt UK companies too

Fair and balanced

MattW

As the OP, my post was never meant to suggest we shouldn't help, just that paying for road markings and bollards seems to be a bit rich especially when safety in this country means Speed Cameras!

I don't subscribe to the view the UK shouldn't be a philanthropist.

hodgy0_2

some uplifting thoughts this sunny Friday

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

Charity sees the need, not the cause

We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.

and to quote "The Greatest"

Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth.~Mohammed Ali

Luan Pra bang

The two biggest barriers to the UK investing in the southern half of africa are corruption and infrastructre. If we can address that it goes some ways toward UK companies making a killing from the cheap labour there. Seeing as most non EU countries have high tariffs on African imports it opens up the door on low tariff imports from Africa to the UK then on to the rest of the world. At the moment only 25% of their exports are manufactured, if they can increase this while maintaining their petrol, mineral and agricultural exports it opens up the possibility of jobs followed by economic and political stability with long term benefit to the UK and Europe. The volatile nature of commodity prices means that parts of africa will always have problems unless they can manufacture which gives more stability on the basis that manufactured products have lower price variations.

Martin2005

I'm sick of the line 'charity begins at home' constantly being trotted out on threads like this.

That mantra is used over and over by the uncharitable as a justification for doing nothing

dpb

The Chinese are the new colonialists , happy to buy mines wholescale (probably from corrupt 'tribal chiefs' ) in return for a few poxy roads built.

and thats all over Africa

The Zohan

And do you feel with the current debt we are carrying we can afford to give money away?

Leslie

You may well be right and that further underlines the point I made in the first place.

Les

The Zohan

Charity should and does begin at home for anyone with any common sense.

"Mantra for the uncharitable" where the **** do you get off being a pompous ****, some of us give to charity, picking the charities we chose to support, in our case cancer(s) and childrens' charities, we give by D/D each month, through thick and thin.

David Lock

"Charity begins at home" is fair enough as long as one is aware of the huge, huge gulf between say struggling families and kids in some countries compared with families in the UK.

I have every respect for Children in Need and admire the work they do. I watched it for a couple of hours last night and there were some very sad and moving stories, sweet little girls who were about to lose their dad with the big C; you probably saw it. But also building a state-of-the-art recording studio for hard done by street kids doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

But in parts of Africa and Asia you have tens of thousands of kids who are, literally, at death's door, often with no family to comfort them. There is simply no comparison. As I posted earlier it is all a question of balance.

And I do have some sympathy with Matt's question as to whether spending UK Aid funds on road markings and bollards is really warranted.

dl

Martin2005

I'll tell you why, because I ONLY EVER here that mantra from people looking for an excuse NOT to help...thats why

dpb

Here here

Leslie

Overseas aid does no good to those who need it when it is snaffled by corrupt leaders and ends up in numbered accounts somewhere.

The giving of aid should be done in such a way that it goes to the right places and is also not used by the donating government as a way of currying favour.

Les

SJ_Skyline

Just a thought but many of the developing countries in Africa had their infrastructures built for them whilst under colonialism. After independence they haven't maintained their infrastructures and consequently require aid to help rebuild them. Government aid is one thing, but it's akin to giving a man fish and he can eat for a day. If businesses invest in the countries, building factories and infrastructure alike, they are teaching the man to fish.

Sadly it doesn't work like this - just google some of the pictures for oil extraction in the Niger delta. If more companies actually enforced their mantra of corporate-social responsibility and more governments were less happy to accept a bundle of notes to look the other way then there wouldn't be the need for this aid.

David Lock

All pretty true, sadly. In Nigeria, for example, there are around a dozen companies that have a licence to extract oil, much of which comes from the Niger region in the South. Every now and again there is a meeting of key players and it is agreed that company x will be allowed to extract say a billion barrels of oil. It is an understood part of the deal that say 50 cents is kept back for the President, 1$ is for the middle man and perhaps another 50 cents in case needed. Doesn't sound a lot but 50 cents times 1 billion is a lot of money. Paid from offshore accounts by the oil companies. A good start would be to make the oil companies pay a cut to the Niger area so people can live in a reasonable environment. The problem being who would enforce this? It could only be someone like the World Bank making it a condition of loan development AND putting in place ways of ensuring it happens.

Yes the colonial days did have some benefits but they have been largely lost. If you go to an old government building now in many countries it will be pretty tatty with most secretaries slumped asleep over their modern electric typewriters which they can't use because there is no power

dl

dpb

I gather that when the portugese for example left they took their infrastrucure with them or destroyed it , we were one of the few that just left .

But anyway it just seems like theere is a caste system in place ( even tho there isnt) where its accepted that the blokes at the the top are entitled to keep any spare wedge to spend on their big houses ,phat mercs ,phat wives instead of ploughing into any infrastrucure -whilst the majority have to live hand to mouth in the fields.

Its mainly cos thats what weve taught them running a very close race with the notion that the male is all powerfull and women are secondary.

But then again in 70 percent of countries the women are still expected to produce 8 kids least the first 7 dont make it - so not much time left to do much else !

Luan Pra bang

The oil companies have been allowed to run riot in nigeria and unless they become accountable for crimes in Nigeria under EU law nothing will change.

The Zohan

Wit the blessing of successive Nigerian governments who seem happy to let the people stave whilst they sit pretty as their resources are stripped - yes a lot of western companies are part of the problem the real criminals are those who have the responsibility to run the country and have the welfare of their people at heart.


Just too easy to keep blaming the west, look a little closer at the governments in place fecking over the people.

Corruption and slavery and asset stripping are and have been a way of life in Africa with different tribes happy to sell slaves from enemy tribes to the Muslim slave traders and later the western slavers. This has gone on for 100's if not 1000's of years and is part of the culture - this needs to change and stop just blaming the west for the evils in Africa!

David Lock

Granted the African nations i.e. mostly politicians must shoulder a lot of the blame but it is Western dollars given corruptly that are are at the heart of it. david