Is it true the 2.5 engine is weak?
#31
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IME it's not Subaru's manufacturing that's the problem, it's the people who drive em!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
#32
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IME it's not Subaru's manufacturing that's the problem, it's the people who drive em!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
took the words out of my mouth but i still think they could of done better with standard transmission
got a 2.5 no mods to the block 500+bhp lots of mixed driving and no problems at all
#33
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I think it's very much a case of how it's been used previously and your own driving style though.
Ns04
#34
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IME it's not Subaru's manufacturing that's the problem, it's the people who drive em!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
There are suddenly a lot of big bhp (500+) builds happening nowadays.... let's see how long some of them last, with use other than going down the shops with the kids in the back and polishing it. I'm not saying engines will let go, but a dyno figure is one thing..... keeping it together is something else.
I know for a cast iron fact, of a number of higher profile cars that have had all sorts of engine problems..... but alas they are never admitted to in public.
Anyway... I digress.
#36
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Totally disagree with this statement. I'm running 415bhp/380lb/ft through a totally standard engine internals 03 UK STI. The engine has covered nearly 80,000 miles - over 45,000 of them at close to or above 400bhp. Even now, the engine burns almost no oil, the compression is great and the valve clearances (checked last week) are still spot on. Moreover, I've not had one single mechanical problem with any of the OEM components on this car. OK, the car is serviced every 4000-5000 miles instead of 9,000 but it still speaks volumes for the mechanical integrity of the car. As others have said here, mapping is key and I'm convinced that Zen's mapping has been part of the reason why the engine is still running so well.
03 is a 2.0 isn't it?
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Anders
Last edited by Anders_WR1; 20 November 2009 at 07:46 PM.
#45
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Can't blame the block for that! Naturally we fixed it. It now runs well over 600bhp like it did before. It isn't the one we posted a graph for this week, which is still running well two years after we built it with no block problems.
This one is running well after a year of track days and hard road driving.
#46
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The earlier 2 litre STi did have hypereuretic pistons and these have been proven time and time again to take in excess of 450bhp reliably.
#47
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We had one that suffered a totally unexplained inlet valve failure. It parted company from the stem at a steady 3500 rpm, datalogged by the Motec.
Can't blame the block for that! Naturally we fixed it. It now runs well over 600bhp like it did before. It isn't the one we posted a graph for this week, which is still running well two years after we built it with no block problems.
This one is running well after a year of track days and hard road driving.
Can't blame the block for that! Naturally we fixed it. It now runs well over 600bhp like it did before. It isn't the one we posted a graph for this week, which is still running well two years after we built it with no block problems.
This one is running well after a year of track days and hard road driving.
#48
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It used upgraded valve train materials throughout. The supplier took a huge amount of trouble over the subsequent investigation, and an arrangement was reached that adequately dealt with the aftermath of a valve head rattling about. The engine is now restored, with the same component specs, and is running perfectly. Fantastically in fact.
#49
IME it's not Subaru's manufacturing that's the problem, it's the people who drive em!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
It's a great engine, which habitually tolerates much higher outputs than it leaves the factory with as long as a) the modifications and mapping is done correctly b) it is driven with some degree of mechanical sympathy and c) it is maintained correctly.
Problem with this marque is too many people think: cheap performance and, in reality, there is no such thing: one way or another (be it the cost of the mods, the running costs etc) - you play, you pay!
I agree, some people on the Ford Forum blame the Volvo engine for going pop on modified ST and RS's. But think its more likely cheap backstreet mods and rally mode pilots. My cousins STi is a gem with no issues, gosh even trim rattles seem a thing of the past with the new hatch.
#50
USA is the home of horsepower. 450hp is considered very slow in the states, its like owning a UK spec.
Also i have a 2.5 STi block in my Type R mapped at 430.3hp/459ft with standard internals. Its been good for the last two years, with many track days
Also i have a 2.5 STi block in my Type R mapped at 430.3hp/459ft with standard internals. Its been good for the last two years, with many track days
Last edited by STi Singh; 23 November 2009 at 04:34 PM.
#52
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tbh its all down to personal opinion, i can show you people who have posted with destroyed blocks and you can show me people who havn't. thats the whole point its where do you class the safe limit as? Its not a definative this is the mark.
havn;t you had one of your 2.5 self destruct alan that was pished over 500? not sure what the casue so might not be the block, but theres alot of folks who take an ej275 above 500 and they let go for various reasons, siome of which are block failures. So you could also argue that of a reliable 500+ ej257 is much harder to achieve than say a 2.33 closed deck then y would you want to stay with the ej257 and take the risk?
as far as the analaogy with ferrari, there 500 as standard so designed to run like that all day, so compare a scoob at 500 and you will get that sort of results. thats the whole point, the design of the engine takes into account that, the subaru engine wasn;t designed for that much power. Its only after customising it gets there which is way way above design specs.
havn;t you had one of your 2.5 self destruct alan that was pished over 500? not sure what the casue so might not be the block, but theres alot of folks who take an ej275 above 500 and they let go for various reasons, siome of which are block failures. So you could also argue that of a reliable 500+ ej257 is much harder to achieve than say a 2.33 closed deck then y would you want to stay with the ej257 and take the risk?
as far as the analaogy with ferrari, there 500 as standard so designed to run like that all day, so compare a scoob at 500 and you will get that sort of results. thats the whole point, the design of the engine takes into account that, the subaru engine wasn;t designed for that much power. Its only after customising it gets there which is way way above design specs.
#53
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Tidgy,
I really do understand what you are saying, but you must at first realise how these failures are happening. Failures need to be put in to context, anything else just causes confusion. The fact of the matter is that there are not than many REAL 500+bhp Scoobs out there, compared to the number of that are not. What you highlight is that it IS easier to achieve 500bhp and not so easy to keep it all in one piece..... regardless of block.
500+bhp is still virgin terrority in the grand scheme of things. Everyone that passes that kind of level is themselves testing. Things are improving and so is knowledge.
Nothing is full proof at this level, but a decent level of research in to what causes 2.5's to fail would be a good starting point. Too many people get sucked in to so called facts, without knowing the detail. Before you know it, it becomes the defacto!
I have even heard through the grapevine that some little rumours are about that mine has never run 500+bhp. Thus the reason why my case has never split. How many RR's do I have to go on to prove that one! Also mine run's as it is for any of my dyno runs.... road, sprint or track! I have NEVER ran a dyno map/fuel mix/boost level etc to make it look good for a dyno run. What you see is what you get for any use. However, through constant development I actually make more power now at less boost, than I have ever ran. This block used to be regulary hit with way over 2bar of boost, but that level is just not needed anymore (at the moment ).
I really do understand what you are saying, but you must at first realise how these failures are happening. Failures need to be put in to context, anything else just causes confusion. The fact of the matter is that there are not than many REAL 500+bhp Scoobs out there, compared to the number of that are not. What you highlight is that it IS easier to achieve 500bhp and not so easy to keep it all in one piece..... regardless of block.
500+bhp is still virgin terrority in the grand scheme of things. Everyone that passes that kind of level is themselves testing. Things are improving and so is knowledge.
Nothing is full proof at this level, but a decent level of research in to what causes 2.5's to fail would be a good starting point. Too many people get sucked in to so called facts, without knowing the detail. Before you know it, it becomes the defacto!
I have even heard through the grapevine that some little rumours are about that mine has never run 500+bhp. Thus the reason why my case has never split. How many RR's do I have to go on to prove that one! Also mine run's as it is for any of my dyno runs.... road, sprint or track! I have NEVER ran a dyno map/fuel mix/boost level etc to make it look good for a dyno run. What you see is what you get for any use. However, through constant development I actually make more power now at less boost, than I have ever ran. This block used to be regulary hit with way over 2bar of boost, but that level is just not needed anymore (at the moment ).
Last edited by Shaun; 24 November 2009 at 02:49 PM.
#54
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I had a linered EJ257 and through faults of me own i managed to split/cracked/damaged 2 of the liners.This was done when i was in my early days of modifying and having a lead right foot and no patience(sp).I gave it too much boost and not enough fuel...car was flying(as they do before they go bang).Lesson learnt and now sitting here waiting for my current build to finish.Heres hoping that everything will work out and i will take my time to make this car run correctly.
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We had one that suffered a totally unexplained inlet valve failure. It parted company from the stem at a steady 3500 rpm, datalogged by the Motec.
Can't blame the block for that! Naturally we fixed it. It now runs well over 600bhp like it did before. It isn't the one we posted a graph for this week, which is still running well two years after we built it with no block problems.
This one is running well after a year of track days and hard road driving.
Can't blame the block for that! Naturally we fixed it. It now runs well over 600bhp like it did before. It isn't the one we posted a graph for this week, which is still running well two years after we built it with no block problems.
This one is running well after a year of track days and hard road driving.
Alan and Martin.
I always read with great interest on how yous get on with your customers build.Have heard many a good comments on customer service and big builds
Yous sure do have a great results on 2.5L builds and long may it continue.
Peter
#56
Just add me to the unlucky ones. 2006 sti, no mods, always allowed to warm up and cool down, already had the head gasket replaced once, and now I have just had it done again, along with a now cracked piston. I'm sure a built engine is brilliant, but I have a sneaking suspicion, mine is actually made of some type of chocolate, more specifically one with a really low cocca content, like the stuff you get in cheap advent calendars..... I had a lot more faith in my last 2 litre one, that was driven in exactly the same manor as this one.....
#57
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Just add me to the unlucky ones. 2006 sti, no mods, always allowed to warm up and cool down, already had the head gasket replaced once, and now I have just had it done again, along with a now cracked piston. I'm sure a built engine is brilliant, but I have a sneaking suspicion, mine is actually made of some type of chocolate, more specifically one with a really low cocca content, like the stuff you get in cheap advent calendars..... I had a lot more faith in my last 2 litre one, that was driven in exactly the same manor as this one.....
sadly it happens and mainly down to what kind of history the car had what oil was used was it abused before or maybe your just a little unlucky
#58
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Head gaskets are more down to lack of coolant changes or correct coolant type/concentration than what oil has been used.
Also warming up and cooling down does squat all if air has found its way into the cooling system, say from a tiny weap on the water pump shaft seal or a pinhole in the radiator that wouldn't be big enough to show any puddles under the car when parked. All it needs is a bit of air lock or localised boiling in one of the cylinder heads and pop goes the gasket.
Rule no.1 of head gasket failures; find the root cause of the gasket failure. They can often fail due to some underlying problem elsewhere.
Also warming up and cooling down does squat all if air has found its way into the cooling system, say from a tiny weap on the water pump shaft seal or a pinhole in the radiator that wouldn't be big enough to show any puddles under the car when parked. All it needs is a bit of air lock or localised boiling in one of the cylinder heads and pop goes the gasket.
Rule no.1 of head gasket failures; find the root cause of the gasket failure. They can often fail due to some underlying problem elsewhere.
#59
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Tidgy,
I really do understand what you are saying, but you must at first realise how these failures are happening. Failures need to be put in to context, anything else just causes confusion. The fact of the matter is that there are not than many REAL 500+bhp Scoobs out there, compared to the number of that are not. What you highlight is that it IS easier to achieve 500bhp and not so easy to keep it all in one piece..... regardless of block.
500+bhp is still virgin terrority in the grand scheme of things. Everyone that passes that kind of level is themselves testing. Things are improving and so is knowledge.
Nothing is full proof at this level, but a decent level of research in to what causes 2.5's to fail would be a good starting point. Too many people get sucked in to so called facts, without knowing the detail. Before you know it, it becomes the defacto!
I have even heard through the grapevine that some little rumours are about that mine has never run 500+bhp. Thus the reason why my case has never split. How many RR's do I have to go on to prove that one! Also mine run's as it is for any of my dyno runs.... road, sprint or track! I have NEVER ran a dyno map/fuel mix/boost level etc to make it look good for a dyno run. What you see is what you get for any use. However, through constant development I actually make more power now at less boost, than I have ever ran. This block used to be regulary hit with way over 2bar of boost, but that level is just not needed anymore (at the moment ).
I really do understand what you are saying, but you must at first realise how these failures are happening. Failures need to be put in to context, anything else just causes confusion. The fact of the matter is that there are not than many REAL 500+bhp Scoobs out there, compared to the number of that are not. What you highlight is that it IS easier to achieve 500bhp and not so easy to keep it all in one piece..... regardless of block.
500+bhp is still virgin terrority in the grand scheme of things. Everyone that passes that kind of level is themselves testing. Things are improving and so is knowledge.
Nothing is full proof at this level, but a decent level of research in to what causes 2.5's to fail would be a good starting point. Too many people get sucked in to so called facts, without knowing the detail. Before you know it, it becomes the defacto!
I have even heard through the grapevine that some little rumours are about that mine has never run 500+bhp. Thus the reason why my case has never split. How many RR's do I have to go on to prove that one! Also mine run's as it is for any of my dyno runs.... road, sprint or track! I have NEVER ran a dyno map/fuel mix/boost level etc to make it look good for a dyno run. What you see is what you get for any use. However, through constant development I actually make more power now at less boost, than I have ever ran. This block used to be regulary hit with way over 2bar of boost, but that level is just not needed anymore (at the moment ).
As Shaun rightly says those that have been amongst the early pioneers at this power level are doing the research and the testing - finding what works and what doesn't. Sure there are going to be some issues and failures but it was the same when people were going for 400 or 300. It could never be done people were told or they would just destroy themselves.
Shaun's has held together perfectly barring a head gasket issue - but that is a relative small thing caused by use of very high boost. My own would have held together if it was a road car but as it is used in anger on track (which brings into play lots of other issues such as oil surge) other issues got the better of it and had to have a rebuild. But it has since done 5000 miles with no issues.
Again, I don't do maps on mine for dyno's - I can't see the point. I get it right for the road/track and measure that on the dyno if I get time. Unfortunately it hasnt been on the dyno since just before the engine went but it will be soon to fine tune the map and to measure what it has been running.
Lots of issues don't make it to the public domain from very well known places (my god I can't believe I am agreeing with Shaun 3 times in one post !) running 2.0 to high levels.
500+ is not a place for true road cars really and we are talking about more than double the OE power and torque levels (they are exactly double on mine) - it is never going to be as reliable as it leaves the factory ... fact. But there are lots of things that can be done to help protect it.
Is the 2.5 a weak engine ? I don't think so.
#60
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The **** waving in this thread is immense , bunch of gayers
The way i read the original post was this.....
The OP has just bought a car, i assume with a stock engine, and suspect he wants to know if his stock engine is going to last? now we have the meat-sabre warriors swinging the pink oboe about ,trying to prove some other kind of point.
Taking engines apart and changing things may not be what the OP was asking about.
SN at its finest
Stock 2.5 = Weak piston ringlands, headgasket performance as expected, crank good.
Built 2.5 = nothing to do with this thread really>? but pretty bullet proof considering.
The way i read the original post was this.....
The OP has just bought a car, i assume with a stock engine, and suspect he wants to know if his stock engine is going to last? now we have the meat-sabre warriors swinging the pink oboe about ,trying to prove some other kind of point.
Taking engines apart and changing things may not be what the OP was asking about.
SN at its finest
Stock 2.5 = Weak piston ringlands, headgasket performance as expected, crank good.
Built 2.5 = nothing to do with this thread really>? but pretty bullet proof considering.