Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

I doubt anyone on here doesn't feel sadness/pity for the child killed. He was only a little kid at the end of the day.

I think the discussion has gone the way it has because when this sort of thing happens, it usually tends to be a certain type of dog (suspected), and more importantly a certain type of owner.

Of course this is tragic, but it does make you wonder what was going on, and why the child was up at midnight. Not that this takes us away from a child being killed.

I personally wouldn't write off whole breeds of dogs, based on the fact that certain secions of society are attracted to them, and bring them up incorrectly, with the attitude of 'looking hard'.

Any dog has the potential to turn, and cause serious harm or death, it isn't restricted completely to certain breeds mentioned here. Obviously some dogs have a greater chance of causing more injury due to size or strenght, but that alone probably doesn't make them more likely to turn. I personally think alot is more to do with the type of owners, and how they raise a dog. Often the types of people this happens to, aren't capable of raising a child properly.

Most children probably aren't born bad, but with the wrong parenting and behaviour taught, they are more likely to turn out bad. But as with anything, those raised well etc. still can go off the rails.

Fabioso

Right summing this up without even reading the posts :-

Pro (whatever breed of dog it is) It's the owners!!, the pikey family/kids!!, the crap example the dog'd been given!!......

Anti (I read the DAILY MAIL these dog's should be BANNED!!, they are just ***** extensions!!, it's becos they are bred to kill!!)

Me, well it's sad a kiddie died but generally I don't subscribe to either point of view.

I suspect it's a bit of both from the above in varying degrees in each individual case that makes the story end in tragedy. It will happen again for sure, accidents or negligence always will.

CrisPDuk

Don't let a pair of ignorant, irresponsible tw@ts who should have been neutered at birth, and probably only had the poor kid in the first place as an extra source of income, put you off getting a dog yourself

We got our first dog (a rescue border collie cross) when I was 7 years old, and me and her were insepperable for nearly ten years until she died

With proper parental guidance (which I'm sure you are more than capable of), they are one of the best ways going for teaching kids about care and responsibility for someone other than themselves


And don't do it at Christmas
Get yourselves down to your local rescue centre in the new year, and trust me the right dog for your family will pick you out

cster

Well it seems to me that if you get a small dog, it will not be able to kill your children as they are a bit older. Personally, unless you are prepared to train it yourself, I wouldn't yield to them.
Many people who get dogs as "family pets" don't bother to train them - you know the sort of thing, you visit them and when they open the door, their retarded dog jumps all over you etc.
For these types a smaller dog or even better a cat would make a more suitable pet.
Many people don't prioritise the education of themselves or their own children - it is little surprise that such people will not bother to train/educate a dog.
And perhaps therein lies the problem.

Devildog

Martin, if you met my dogs, rather than relying on sensationalist media, the perhaps you would understand why I have them.

There is one common denominator in the vast majority of incidences where dogs have harmed or killed children and that is not the breeds, but the class of owners.

I wonder, would we even consider those breeds "hard" were it not for the scum who are sadly attracted to them. And don't forget, they are attracted to them because of reputation. Reputation that largely comes from, yes, our sensasionalist media.

The dogs are not the cause. The largely infrequent cases of attacks like this are just another tragic side effect of the state of our society.

Banning certain breeds won't stop this happening. Anyone who really can't see that doesn't understand the issue.

The parents of this child don't deserve to have children, and due to their actions now they don't. That is the biggest lesson to be learned here. Whether a responsible family choose to own Staffies, Rotties or whatever is irrelevant.

Martin2005

Please don’t get me wrong here; I’m not saying that there aren’t responsible owners (you seem fairly well balanced for starters).
So yes you can be a responsible Rottie owner of course, but how responsible is it to get one in the first place?
No one has yet answered my question, how do you end up with a Rottie, Staff, etc if you are choosing a dog, and what’s wrong with Spaniels and Labradors etc.

Leslie

I saw a very big Rottie in Looe the other day and it was as soft as butter. Gave me a good licking, lovely dog.

However I would never leave any dog alone with a toddler because as has been said often enough here-you never can tell how the animal's mind is working all the time. Shows gross irresponsibility in this case, and as was also mentioned, what was that child doing out of bed at midnight? Even a cat could cause injury in certain circumstances.

Certainly a few hard questions to be answered to say the least.

Les

BOB.T

I did on page 1 actually. 'I got my Staffy cos I know they're friendly, playful and lovely dogs to be around.'

Mia is sat on my lap right now, finishing off my coffee! Nothing wrong with labs and spaniels, nothing wrong with Staffs and Rotties in the right hands.

Martin, do you have experience of Staffs etc, have you spent more than 30 seconds with one?

Dedrater

RIP to the little child

Now I consider myself to be a competent dog owner, I have a farm bought Border Collie and earn Game for bringing live stock in three nights a week. Now the steps I took when I bought my dog(s) should be mandatory for all new owners, regardless of how many owned previously.

After inoculations he was in puppy training classes two nights a week over a period of about two months, I know how to train dogs, but even if you do, the social interaction with other dogs from an early age is essential and if you don't, then the basics of dog handling is priceless (how many people do you see yanking there dog away from another when on a lead? this just leads to aggression)

After that he was off to Obedience and Working Trials, this was the obvious route for mine, but depending on the dog, there is Dog Agility, Flyball, Gundog work (again dependent on dog type, hunt, point and retrieve) Accuracy and Execution and Water Discipline amongst many others that I am probably unaware of. Point being, that at the very least, some kind of "advanced" training is required.

The dog is then chipped with the owners details and is made 100% accountable for its actions i.e. a dog attacks a human, then the owner should be charged the same way as if he attacked said human.

If you can't invest the time and money, which wasn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, like this, then there is zero point in having the dog, imo it needs to exercise its right to use its natural instinct in some shape or form, or I see it as a unhappy dog.

Getting to this point.

I too do not understand this either (Rottweiler being exempt as that makes an almighty farm animal, they can physically force a bull to pen) Maybe it is because I have never met anyone with such a dog where it was allowed off the lead and not looked like he was trying to imply something when walking past me. Personally any dog that has the ability to LockJaw should require some sort of specialised licence.

BOB.T

Mia goes off lead every day, no probs

CrisPDuk

Properly bred and raised Rottweilers and Staffies are probably amongst the most playful, loyal and obedient pets you could find.

Also there's nothing wrongwith Spaniels, my Springer is as mad as a box of frogs, and a big soft numptie*

Even so, I wouldn't dream of leaving a child unattended with her



* Unless you're a male dog and you try to mount her Then your throat is seen as a fair target

pikeywrx

iTrader: (5)

I wish people would do there research on things before jumping on the thats kill any dog thats got teeth band wagon.

I have been bought up with rotties since i was a baby i have never ever been bit by one. i used to foster rotties till they were re homed until kids came along this is not because off any other fact than i wouldnt leave kids with any thing i didnt know people as well as dogs.
I currently have 3 dogs rottie sharpei/staff and a staff cross pig (i think lol) there are also baby gates in my house to keep dogs from going upstairs this is as kids play 90% up there and i dont want dogs up there.

All 3 dogs are what some off you would call "bad dogs" due to there breed. This is the shock horror bit ready,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, i will quite happily let kids play with them!!!!!!!!!!!! do you know what the even worse bit is all 3 dogs know the diference between an adult and a child as in if im playing tug off war with them they will growl shake the rope and all sorts. If my eldest is playing it with them they will litterally only hold rope by there gums. This is because there is a huge difference between a guard dog and a family dog. Guard dogs are trained to hate my dogs have never had to do this. i will add that im in room when ever my 2 youngest are with dogs.

I shall give you a perfect example. when i was doing rotties i had a phone call about a dog that needed rescueing at a car forecourt, there idea off making the dog a guard dog was to lock it in a wooden crate then beat the crate with poles etc for days on end. I took the dog against owners will. People will do horrible things to animals to mke them a guard dog. this is a persons fault not a dogs.
Look up what dog bites more people then any other. you will be extremly shocked. and we shall all be out killing labradors and collies next.
Couple off other small points

The 2 rotties that tragecillay killed that poor child a few year ago. WERE out and out guard dogs they were encouraged to be "hard" and "scary" by there owner as they had a pub the poor kid ws left upstairs unattended with them.

The pit bull that savaged the child last time was on sus and decker these are forms off steriod to butch it up (also banned) the drug dealing owner left it with a child!

Again its all Just my 2 pence worth

Martin2005

Are there not other 'friendly, playful and lovely dogs to be around' that don't have the stigma attached that these do, I mean what advantage / benefit does a Rottie have over other more 'mainstream' breeds?

nik52wrx

How about because ours was of a good pedigree, she was loyal and obedient, fine with children, we liked the look of her, didn't need massive amounts of exercise, need i go on.
Why choose a particular type of car, why not go for a safe Volvo over an in your face Impreza????
Its all about freedom of choice is it not?

Martin2005

I didn't ask what a dog WAS like, I asked WHY GET IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

austinwrx

(a) I fecking hate pets.

(b) I wouldn't have them near children

(c) I have no desire to spend my hard earned on vets, food etc etc keeping fido or tiddles going.

(d) I have far more interesting things to do that drag a dog around on a lead for walkies 3 times a day in all weather.

I appreciate the dog owning masses don't get this. Buy hey- my house and cars don't stink of dog.

Oh and my daughter isn't at risk.

the pikey dog scenario is identical to that of plasma tv's.

the poorer and thicker you are, the bigger yr plasma. In fact anything above 50" can only be sold to those in rented accomm, on benefits.

same with pikey dogs...... you must rent yr house, be on benefit before you make that decision.

Er what shall we do with our benefit money darling?

Oh yes- lets get a big **** off dog, because we can barely feed/clothe our own children.

And what with being such responsible adults, we'll bring it up in the way it needs, with tagging, chipping, tattoos, castration and vacinations.

Or shall we lock it behind pallet fencing or in the cupboard under the stairs and let it go mental.


On the side of balance, I can see a point of owning a collie if your a shepherd, or a drugs sniffing dog.

can't think of much other purpose for them really.

Oh- st bernard for rescuing you in the alps. (with little barrel of brandy)

or a retriever for the blind.

Dedrater

Thats quite a post, but lets raise issue with point D.

What do you do that is intensively better, which a dog owner can not do.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

errrrr... you get it because that's what it is like!!!

Staffies look like a tough dog but are actually recommended as one of the best dogs for families because they have a good nature.

Rotties etc are like German Shepards, they are used as police dogs in Germany. They are very clever and can be exceptionally well trained. The problem once again is the owners who don't keep the dog entertained or train it properly.

We had a German Shepard when i was little, very protective over the family. We had a Lab with a similar mentality and a Lab that is scared of most things but all were very well trained and i would say no danger to anyone.

By your reckoning, children should be kept away from any and all source of danger. Keeping the dog in another room isn't enough, it shouldn't be allowed in the house.

Since 2006 five kids have been killed by dogs. Each year around 100 children under the age of 1 are killed by one or both of their parents. Perhaps we should take all children from the family home just in case?

Why do dads kill children? | Life and style | The Guardian

5t.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

errrrr... you get it because that's what it is like!!!

Staffies look like a tough dog but are actually recommended as one of the best dogs for families because they have a good nature.

Rotties etc are like German Shepards, they are used as police dogs in Germany. They are very clever and can be exceptionally well trained. The problem once again is the owners who don't keep the dog entertained or train it properly.

We had a German Shepard when i was little, very protective over the family. We had a Lab with a similar mentality and a Lab that is scared of most things but all were very well trained and i would say no danger to anyone.

By your reckoning, children should be kept away from any and all source of danger. Keeping the dog in another room isn't enough, it shouldn't be allowed in the house.

Since 2006 five kids have been killed by dogs. Each year around 100 children under the age of 1 are killed by one or both of their parents. Perhaps we should take all children from the family home just in case?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/nov/08/familyandrelationships.gender

5t.

BOB.T

Yup, you're clearly spending your time wisely today!

Why bother posting if that's the best you can do? That's a crap and uneducated reply even by Snet standards!

Bob, Staffy owner, home owner, employed, not claiming benefits, 32" LCD TV

Devildog

I was brought up with everything from cross breeds through labs/goldies to newfoundlands.

As we had other small furry animals at that time, which ruled out hounds and terriers.

We wanted a shortish coat, medium to large size, intelligent, loyal, loving, interactive, easily trained, energetic (but not hyperactive) dog. Fancied something we hadn't had experience of before, and knew three rotties locally, all of whom were fantastic dogs.

We did our research, got in touch with a breeder and went to see them and their dogs to see if the breed fitted in with our lifestyle, and, more importantly, if we were likely to be good owners (as should apply to any breed)

To cut a long story short, we ended up rehoming one of their bitches (2 years old at the time) and who has been the most fantastic dog I've ever known. On the back of that experience we got a male pup from them (who is now six) and who has been an amazing dog. I would go so far as to say that our experiences have been such that we wouldn't look past the breed.

They are intelligent, loyal, affectionate, easily trained, energetic but not hyperactive - will happily walk for miles but equally happily sleep all day and not crave constant attention unless you chose to give it. All in they make fantastic companions. Much the same can be said for staffies (as those are two of the breeds you've picked on)

My dogs are no more dangerous than any other breed you care to mention. In what way is our getting one (two actually) irresponsible?

Over the years I've met literally hundereds of Rotties, and a fair few staffies as well. Not once have any of those dogs given me cause for concern.

I can't however say the same about any number of border collies and terriers.

How many Rotties and Staffies have you direct experience of Martin?

tkws5606

All this talk about dangerous dogs is interesting but way off the mark.
stoopid and iresponsible owners need banning not the dogs it is not the dogs fault if its owner is a silly c##t.
If you cant control the dog you should not be allowed one.

Devildog

I agree 100% mate, however Martin was like a dog with a bone in his tennacity to get answers

David Lock

I hear this dog was an illegal Pitbull. Do you guys think they should be banned or is it still a question of training?

I am not having a go but interested in your views.

dl

pikeywrx

iTrader: (5)

A.) house is mine

B.)I work my nackers off 6 days a week when im not at work im working on being self employed full time

C.) the wife works 7 day weeks and volunteers helping the elderly

D.) i have 3 kids and im 27 technically they arent mine but they are if that makes any sense. (i look after then they come to me if they need olt i pay for them etc etc)

E.) Nothing i own is on credit or finance,

Apparenty what makes me a bad person

A.) i have 3 dogs

B.) bloody hell my tv is 42 inch lcd god i better go buy some soverigns to match!!!!. Or could be that i like nice things i work for them so why shouldt i have them

C.) everynite me and my family walk the dogs i know i should have better things to do but god forbid id rather see kids running around a field getting fresh air then sat in side

Everything you say is utter bollox mate give your head a shake.


Bob +1

Snazy

More to the point, watching the news conference, the household was reported in Feb for being suspected of BREEDING them there. The same house the child died in. Very sad example of a dog in the wrong hands again.

Great to see this thread has brought out the great "WHY" posters again *yawns.
Because we choose to have bigger breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog..... Spaniels bite, Labs bit, poodles bite.... and so on.
Yes bigger dog, bigger bite. But also, bigger brain (in the owner) equates to research, good bloodlines, good training, and responsible ownership.

As for Pits, I am not sure the breed should be banned fullstop, but how do you stop illegal breeding in the first place. Pits can be great dogs. Just a shame about the label attached to them.

I will answer the question for you Martin. I ended up with 2 Alaskan Malamutes through choice. I dont want a spaniel, or a Lab... I wanted the breed I chose. For their nature, for their habits, for their ability, and for their personality.
I hope that answers your question in full.

Devildog

Hey Snaz,

I see Martin appears to have fecked off - possibly because he didn't get the answer to his why question along the lines of:

"'why? - cos them is hard dogs, them is, and hard dogs makes me look hard too"

lol

Snazy

thats actually got me laughing here on my own!
But then we knew I was mad already, I keep wolves!

Dont forget to polish those big harnesses for the dogs to make you look harder!

I trust the pack is well ?

Martin2005

Well I haven't 'fecked off' as you so nicely put it (reading nothing into that of course). We both know what makes these animals so attactive, you can post rationalise this all you like. Using your logic I might get a wolf as I've heard they're very smart

Snazy

lol thats a bit of a strong assumption.
What you are actually saying is, in YOUR eyes the agressive/scary/stereotypical reputation of the Rotty is what you think would make one attractive.

Wolves are indeed very smart, however not very good at being socialised. Even 3rd, 4th, 5th generation captive ones.

What would you suggest attracted me to my dogs then?