lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing...

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Lag is an equation of boost required over charge/distance travelled.

BUT what we are saying is that there is a natural gain of a FMIC over a TMIC because the air intake temperature is consistently colder on a front mount.

SO there will be a gain of say 10 -20 hp without adding any more boost. the engine will fire more efficiently and create more power organically.

Obviously, if you are looking to create 2 bar from a zero bar situation there will be a wait. But in the above scenario there will be no marked difference in spool and response.

Like bob says choose your tuner carefully. We are out there doing this day after day...........

David

Mus

iTrader: (2)

I was under the Impression that going front mount will delay spool by 2-300 rpm but will help you gain a lot more power, personally I went front mount a long time with stage one mods and power Fc and avcr my car made 330bhp/321 torque a mate of mine who went down a similar route but with a top mount only managed 310 bhp with 300 torque, so I definitely agree that a front mount will net you a lot more power and once done you wont need to look at the area anymore but will affect spool slightly compared to a top mount but worth every penny in my opinion as you wont have to ever worry about heat soak ever again

harvey

iTrader: (48)

SteveblueWRX: I have every confidence in the product and you need a GDB kit, not GT2.
The GDB core is the lesser performer of all the Hybrid cores but even so I have absolutely no reservation.
What I am prepared to do is sell you an ACT guage £80 inclusive of postage and when you have had that fitted I am happy to sell you an FMIC at a good price and you can report on charge temperatures. The ACT guage need to be fitted on the underside of the STi 8 TMIC close to the exit to the throttle body and on that centre line. The sensor on the GDB hard pipe should similarly be close to the throttle body mounted in the hard pipe.

If you want to go further than that and turn it in to a proper fact finding exercise we can look at that.
Who maps your car? We might even be able to devise a test to determine if there is any noticable lag and it is dead easy to clock where you achieve 1 bar in 5th ie. at what RPM with the TMIC and ditto with the FMIC.
There needs to be control over tyre pressure, car weight and fuel and we need to take note of the ambient on each of the days on which the tests are conducted so that meaningful information is gathered.

Moley:
I was talking about 10-20 bhp not 10 bhp. You are right, BHP is not the be all and end all but even at 400 bhp an add on of 20 bhp is very noticable. What is more the be all and end all for almost everyone is engine life and safety. Lower air charge temperatures add safety and if you don't want to believe me do your own research.

Bob: I see you still havn't been able to answer the points put to you when you told us you were leaving the thread although you have come back now and this is the second time you have been asked to respond.
No noticable lag increase and you should try it for yourself.
You keep banging on about how good a top mount is. You don't listen to those that have had STi 8 top mounts and then changed to front mounts. Why not try it for yourself before you have an opinion on it based on someone else's webpage. If your car is purely for setting the fastest quarter mile time at a relatively low power level then there may be a case for a top mount but that most certainly is not the case beyond a certain power level or for every day road use, track days, top speed running and how many time attack cars ran top mounts?
Andy Forrest couldn't do top speed runs when he ran the top mount to set best possible quarter mile times.
The Gobstopper which is not a dedicated quarter mile car despite its successes does not run a top mount. Why do you think it runs a front mount?
When you come back, please deal with what you couldn't answer before and stick to the points made without muddying the water and going off on a tangent as is your habit.

Havn't you heard of the bum dyno. Some people have a sensitive ****
LOL.

Mus : I don't know where you got that from Mus but if it was a Hybrid front mount intercooler system and that was your experience it is time to look for the cause. Who mapped your car when you swapped to the front mount? Are you sure you are not confusing the difference between OE headers and ported headers or even OE headers and most of the tubular currently on sale?
Some mappers seem to be more alert than others to the possibilities of virtually eliminating lag on cars that go from top mount to front mount.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Absolutely spot on Harvey.

Mus

iTrader: (2)

hi Harvey rest assure it wasnt a hybrid its a crappy autobahn and was fitted by a company in birmingham before i was registered on scoobynet and i wasnt aware of the diffrences in quality with intercoolers.

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Believe me Harvey, I looked into this carefully before replacing the FMIC and going back to TMIC (an expensive move). I had a long conversation about it with Bob Rawle (the mapper you rank most highly). Bob had mapped my car with the FMIC and when I subsequently quizzed him about whether he could 'map out' the reduced throttle response due to the FMIC he told me that it was impossible to do that. He explained that the extra volume or air to be pressurised in the FMIC would inevitably lead a small drop in response. As he put it: "You can't overcome the laws of physics simply by mapping"

I need to add that there's some real confusion here between delayed spool and reduced throttle response. The FMIC didn't delay spool up at all - the turbo spooled at the same rev point as when I had the TMIC. What was reduced was throttle response; rev to 7000rpm and change gear; the revs drop to around 5000rpm, so still well in the power band with the turbo spooled. On my TMIC, when I change gear and put the foot down again, the response and acceleration is INSTANT just like a normally aspirated car; with the FMIC, when I changed gear and put the foot down, there was a very slight delay before the car surged forward again. As has been said on here many times, some people barely notice a reduced throttle response but it can bug the hell out of others (me included)

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I don't particularly disagree with what you are saying Andrew but from your previous naturally aspirated background you are an exceptionally critical observer and can detect what others might ignore. The point really has to be that if you have one third of a second delay per gear change there is something far wrong. That is not the norm as some try to claim and while I accept there may be marginal lag it is not as pronounced as some people try to make out, unless of course they have a problem and like you I believe that many people will barely notice the reduced throttle response.
This is why I said that unless the car is dedicated to good quarter mile times at relatively low power then a front mount is probably the best choice.

stevie1982

iTrader: (16)

wow 5 pages long and still going back and forth with which option is better. i think this is one of the things that will never be agreed on. for me i think if you are going over a certin power level and intend to run track days, sprints and spirited rosad driving then a fmic is the way to go, i can suffer the slight lack of throttle response (not that i really notice) for the extra power and general safety of the engine. for othes i can understand why you wish to continue to run the tmic but shall we agrre to disagree, different horses for course and all that and move on as it is xmas and stop the bum fighting.

to the original poster i hope you have found some of the answers you were looking for within all the banter.

good luck with which ever route you take and enjoy the fmic you know it makes sense lol

Anders_WR1

iTrader: (8)

Did you try running without the dump valve with the FMIC on? I prefer it and would argue in gear throttle response is slightly better with the dump valve off.

Turbovin

iTrader: (2)

YouTube - Acctest WRXSTITYPERV5 Don't think my car has that much lag between gear shifts? Can't remember that is was any better with the TMIC either, less power though.

trevsjwood

iTrader: (2)

is that 0-100mph in 5 sec or am I seeing things

Turbovin

iTrader: (2)

No the dials show km/h :P So 0-100 km/h. 0-100 mph is more like 12s. Not full throttle from start though.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Some people just keep missing what I say, just for the sake of a argument.

Anyone that says that a FMIC has no negative effect on throttle response over a TMIC or can overcome the shortfall by making more power for the same given setup is either biased or don't know what they are doing.

If that were true, then FMIC equipped cars would outperform similar TMIC equiped cars on acceleration from standstill (as measured by 1/4mile), but this simply is not the case.

Even when the next stage of mods is complete, I may well still end up shortening the FMIC pipework as much as possible as I to like to have a quick, responsive car.

Both FMICs and TMICs have their place, now let's all live in peace

Merry Christmas all

Tidgy

sounds more like you don't know how to setup a car with a front mount,,, pmsl

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

What do you mean by that Tidge?

stealthy55

lol say what you mean tidgy, dont hold back

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Most of us have read carefully what you have said but you do not address the points made and go off on a tangent and waffle without dealing specifically with the points made. If you really want to contribute do some proper testing. Bench mark what you have already, fit a front mount, remap and bench mark again. Yes I know it costs money but it is something that I am doing all the time as will be confirmed by many people including Pat Herbron, Steve Simpson and Bob Rawle.
What you say is not missed but it has little substance. You keep banging on about acceleration but don't explain why all the winning Time Attack cars don't have top mounts.

Specifically who says that an FMIC has no negative effect?
I think most people are saying it is not significant enough to be noticable and it is certainly nothing like one third of a second every gear change you referred to previously. That is a complete exaggeration but something you have latched on to despite the contrary information from people who have actually fitted front mounts.
It is exactly because the additional power a front mount can produce overcomes any minor negatives that people in general and competition cars in particular fit efficient front mount intercooler setups.
Rather than accuse us of not listening to what you say/write why not look at the evidence and experience from people that have done it. Yes you can have your own opinion but at present it is flying in the face of practical experience and because you will not answer the valid points made and continue to go off on a tangent various end users with experience will continue to point out that they have a contrary view, never mind the evidence which also exists.

Tidgy

im not saying anything, im just making an observation from your previous comments.

got several other tuners saying they have no issues but then you say you do have issues.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I have measured performance of the TMIC and it works well (certainly better than older wrx TMIC's) but having now gone FMIC (a good one) there is no substitute for the cold air and extra power. It will also keep doing that for longer (TMIC will gradually heat and heat and potentially cause issues with det) and enables you to keep on it.

Why is this discussion still going on ?

Tidgy

been thinkign that for about 10 threads now lol

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Hear, Hear!

Bob just likes to have the last word and is probably working on the premise that his name will stay at the top of the thread lists. [ not necessarily for the right reasons though....... ]

David

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Well put. We all have different priorities from a car and different subjective driving experiences. If we were all the same, a) there would only be one car on the market and b) what a boring world it would be Having tried both routes, I found that an uprated TMIC currently suits my driving priorities and preferences but equally, if I owned a Classic, or ran significantly more power or used the car on the track, that would undoubtedly change.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

@ David. I've tried signing off on this a few times already.

Merry Christmas all

Tidgy

merry christmas Bob

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Merry Xmas all [ I had to get in last ..... ]

scoobydog63

iTrader: (4)

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

ok , so which one is the best to go for then , front or top ?



Harvey , I'll take a front mount off you for my classic rally car , running an aggressive anti lag will sort any issues out , I wont need it until the begining of jan when I get my new 2.5 , but will pay now to get in on your deal

Cheers Ian

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Front mount GT2 on your car Ian - No doubt about it.

David APi

chris-RB5

What's the point of a reversed inlet manifold then????