harvey

iTrader: (48)

??? The top photo shows the ACT Guage with a reading of 5 degrees Centigrade.
The other two photos show the temperature sender located in the hard pipe prior to the throttlebody.
This ACT guage has green backlighting to match the other instrumentation. WBO2/AFR, Accurate speed/Microprocessor, EGT and Coolant. (Blue and red backlighting also available.)

Stevesbluewrx

iTrader: (4)

Cool,

PM on it's way.

Steve

Andy.F

Bob Rawle and I certainly agree on that one. The throttle response with a TMIC is noticeably sharper. That's one reason I retained the original TMIC on my 480bhp Spec C for running in the Scoobysprint handling competition. Winning every round entered and winning the 2009 Road Class Championship perhaps backs up that as the being the correct decision.

If I was building a 500bhp+ circuit racer which is running WOT lap after lap then a FMIC would probably feature in the spec.

Andy

PS I don't sell TMIC or FMIC's and actually tune relatively few drag cars !

hhh1234

iTrader: (17)

well thats the end of this tread,

i have an AVO aftermarket TMIC for sale which is better than any sti8 intercooler, who wants to buy it. lol

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Stu : Sorry no photos of the ACT sender located on an STi 8 TMIC.
It is easy enough to do however. Two choices.
Remove top mount and drill under surface close to the exit to the throttle body. Tap and fit probe. Remember to choose the location close to the TMIC exit to throttle body and take note of the external space required by the probe.
Alternatively, cut the silicon joiner (or rubber) from TMIC to throttle body and insert an aluminium or steel insert pipe. Cut a 'v' in the rubber joiner to allow for the probe hex. Drill and tap the insert. Again locate so that the probe is to one side and does not foul the bonnet etc.
See the photographs of the probe in the FMIC hard pipe.
The probe protrudes by about 45mm.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

The difference in throttle response is so marginal that most people are not the least concerned, many don't notice it and it is more than compensated with the cooler ACTs and additional power afforded by the FMIC. 5% more power in my case which may be conservative.
If Bob Rawle thought that a top mount was the way forward why has he been running a front mount on his STi 5 for the last ??? years? He sells neither top mount nor front mount and can have the pick of anything he wants.

Do you remember posting the horrendous ACTs you were achieving on your competition car?
Think how much easier a time your engine would have with the cooler front mount ACTs and the degree of safety afforded to the engine.

I think not.
Look here : https://www.scoobynet.com/totb-382/7...b-results.html

Applying your logic above then clearly a front mount is the way to go. Olly Clark scored 35 points to your 7 (still a great result for you) and team total one point behind the winning Evos at 47 points. One car contributing three quarters of the team points will tell most people something.
The Roger Clark car was able to compete in all disciplines, handling where it was overall second, nothing to do with absolute power, quarter mile and top speed and with the front mount intercooler the car has not suffered any engine failures during the season. Not only does the front mount allow more power it is achieved safely.

Bob is not the only mapper advocating a front mount. Duncan Graham earlier in this thread explained why he went from STi 8 top mount to front mount and he doesn't sell front mounts. Steve Simpson is a firm advocate of the Hybrid front mounts, even for tarmac rally cars and this is because of the temperature and performance differences he observes while mapping. Eg. 44-50 degrees and rising with an STi 8 top mount 22-26 degrees Hybrid front mount.
Pretty simple choice really and I can do you one at a good price.

Andy.F

Harvey

I will disagree with you on the TMIC throttle response issue, it IS very noticeable to me and is critical if you ever steer your car on the throttle. I even fitted std headers and uppipe to improve this further in order to further improve the times against the clock.

Regards the RCMS racing car, I think you are confusing the Scoobysprint championship with TOTB.

Scooby Sprint Championship

I ran in Scoobysprint in my full road trim Spec C 'daily driver' car, not the record holding 8 second drag car.

Scoobysprint was a 5 round championship and the Spec C on the TMIC won the modified road class outright competing in only 4 of the 5 rounds.

As I clearly state above, 500+bhp cars such as bobs sti, Duncans car and the gobstopper as a circuit racing car would of course be better on FMIC's, I don't dispute that.

Thanks for the offer but for something primarily used as a road car, the Spec C will not be needing a FMIC anytime soon !

Andy

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Photos from owner Alex S. Thanks. Great photos and clarity.
Fitted by us week before Christmas. Running Simtek ECU so no MAF sensoer body. Mapped by Simon Roe. JGM.
Note how the bigger end tanks of the GT2 fill the grill aperture.









Red heat wrap if you like that sort of thing!!!







Turbo supplied and clocked to eliminate 180 degree hot pipe.

Andy.F

Poor turbo being overworked due to the hot air intake, are they also available with a decent cold air induction set up for the classics ?

harvey

iTrader: (48)

The system above will produce more power than an inner wing cold air kit due to the limited space in the inner wing for an adequate CAK filter. This has been proven on a number of occasions with rolling road time.
THere is a cold air inner wing kit available as an option. I don't try to sell these for the reasons stated above.
There is also an option for a cold air divider but gains from the cold air divider appear marginal because the filter already benefits from a degree of cold air in that area especially when the rubber strip on the bonnet above the headlight is removed.

Andy.F

So many ways to skin a cat as they say !
With a TMIC you have the space to start with a very efficient cold air induction which means the turbo runs more efficiently (it also rotates slower for the same boost) and as such wastes less energy overheating the charge air and therefore requires less intercooling.
I will agree that on a rolling road the FMIC will usually win the power race, partly due to the way most rolling roads run their cooling systems, partly due to the continual loading applied.

As an aside, the championship winning Spec C I mentioned previously with the TMIC has never been on a rolling road...... ever !!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these are bad intercoolers but I do believe that on new age cars in particular, people go to FMIC way before they need to, to the detriment of overall performance.

Early classics however are a different proposition !

mickywrx

iTrader: (29)

That's why I went with an FMIC, that and it looks nice.

I also, on Harveys advice, a long time ago, removed the rubber strip from the leading edge of the bonnet above the headlight.

Could probably do with a cold air feed from the front of my car, up the inner wing, but, it's been fine for now (3 years) and works for me.

RA Dunk

Is the above pics using one of your clocked down pipes Harvey, just wondering why there is no 180% bend on the intercooler pipe, looks a lot more tidy with out the silly 180% bend TBH

Scooby_Stu_

iTrader: (12)

Hi Harvey, tapping the bottom of the tmic sounds easier, does the act kit come with all the bits so it can be tapped into the tmic, what do you use to seal the thread and what size tap would i need.

Cheers Stuart.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Clocking the turbo gets rid of the 180 degree bend on the hot pipe as the compressor outlet faces towards the drivers side wing instead of pointing towards the passenger wing as per the OE layout. The problem with clocking the turbo is relocating the wastegate actuator and it is a tedious job and usually involves alloy welding for the bracket. This in itself requires special attention so as not to distort the compressor housing.
Thee is no change of uppipe or downpipe to achieve this.

Fitting the ACT probe in a sleeve inserted in the silicon pipe between top mount and throttle body is easier for me as it does not involve completely removing the top mount just loosening it off. Putting it on the underside of the STi 8 TMIC involves removing the intercooler to drill and tap the hole. A rag can catch any turnings and apply grease to the drills in accordance with normal workshop procedure. Ensure no swarf is left so that it can be ingensted by the engine which is a bad thing.
I can supply ACT guages with green, blue or red backlight but you have to supply your own drills and tap or better still find someone close by that can do this for you. I will check the tap size/thread but it is whatever is commonly used on brass sensor fittings of about 10mm but I need to go to the workshop to check out exactly what it is. Metric, NPT, BSP or whatever.
If you drill and tap properly there are no sealing issues. I guess you could use plumbers PTFE tape if you wished. (The thread is not tapered) The housing on the TMIC is thick enough to allow for a proper threaded hole so security is not an issue.
On the GT Spec pipework when fitting a temperature sensor for the Simtek ECU, I always apply araldyte round the brass hex to secure the sensor because the pipe wall is quite thin. I have noticed recently that the pipework on the GT2 is thicker so even with the right diameter hole you cannot screw in the sensor and need a tap to do the job properly but because the wall is thicker there is no need for the added safety of some araldyte. The purpose of the araldyte was not to seal the joint but prevent unscrewing of the sensor with vibration.

Yes very good move Micky. Only remove it above the headlight and snip with a pair of scissors or a stanley knife at the appropriate point.

Shaun

I recently tested ACT's on my Hyperflow "Monster" FMIC. Both I and ScoobyMania were very impressed with the results. I always knew they were a good bit of kit, but never knew they were that good.

Charge Temp at throttle body


Ambient Temp was 15degs
Inlet Temp was 19degs
Charge Temp circa 18degs - High Boost run at 530bhp

Temps were higher until the run started. Instantly dropped as the car was worked through the gears to 4th, levelled (as shown on the graph) and then went back up when the runs ended.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Andy.
A specialist application and not relevant to most Subaru owners for everyday road use and occasional track but I can see why you did it in this particular application, at your power level, where a tenth of a second was a worthwhile gain on a tight track. I hope you ported your headers.
You are not advocating that Subaru owners go back to standard headers are you? I guess that would increase my ported header workload tremendously. Steering the car on the throttle on the open road is a big no-no for most Scooby owners lacking your skill and a short cut to jail or a ploughed field or both. You are not the average Subaru driver after all and this is not relevant to the average Subaru requirement or driver.

Not at all. RCM competed in all three disciplines at TOTB. You also competed at TOTB in your race car. The versatility and results of the RCMS New Age car with front mount intercooler speak for themselves and they could not have achieved their result on the handling circuit if there was noticable lag from their front mount intercooler setup.

Talking of confusion :
It was Alan Jeffrey that picked up on that.

I am specifically referring to TOTB and if the RCMS car was laggy it would not have scored 75% of Team Subaru's points.

I see why you had a top mount and standard headers on your Spec C for Scooby Sprint but we agree that Classic and New Age cars have different requirements and I never recommend a front mount intercooler to any STi New Age owner unless they have over 400 bhp as a minimum and numerous people have had that advice resulting in no sale but I would rather give good advice.

I accept that colder air is preferable at the filter to warm air which is why the options for cold air exist but where do you stop? How much do you spend and is it worth spending £100 odd on something that is not a particular problem. I have not been able to quantify any bhp increase from fitting a cold air divider although the turbo will have a marginally easier time and that has never been in question. I didn't bother fitting a cold air divider on the STi 3 Wagon here but I can do so and measure temperatures in the vacinity of the filter before and after. Having already tried to determine any power difference from fitting the cold air divider I know that any gain is so small it cannot be reliably measured. Another point is that because the capacity of these intercoolers is bigger than actually required, getting the charge temperature to the required level is not an issue. (Not dismissing the advantage of cold air in the first place).

Maybe Bob Rawle can come along and explain his reasoning for fitting a front mount on his STi 5 every day driver. I think it is no contest where Classics are concerned.

Anyway, I am glad we agree that these are not bad intercoolers.

Have a good Hogmanay.

Shaun

Harvey,
I can vouch for how good the standard twin scroll tubular headers are..... they simply do not need changing or modifying. They have served me well and have lasted for 40k miles. Even when I went to a single scroll turbo, it seemed pointless in changing them and I just changed the up-pipe to a twin to single scroll type. No problems with spool or response on mine.

Single scroll cast crap is entirely different as we all know.

Andy.F

Harvey

It's as a daily driver road car that I most notice the increased in throttle responsiveness with the tmic, winning the scoobysprint handling championship against the clock just backed it up really. Its something that can't just be quantified on a rolling road, regardless of how expensive they are

You may not be aware of this but the RCMS car uses a HUGE dose of NOS to spool it up !!! absolutely nothing to do with the FMIC lol !! Speak to Dave Rowe their mapper if you doubt my info, he is very open

The reference to RCMS still not catching my car was in respect to outright power and speed in a drag race, they were getting close in the race to the 8's for a while though ! As that car old car of mine has never done a time attack event I have no idea if it would be quicker out of the corners or if I would merely just have to wait behind and then overtake them on the straight bits

If you only recommend fmic for over 400bhp minimum on new age cars then we are at least close to agreeing !! Has this always been your bhp recommended level ?

Regards the quality of aforementioned fm intercoolers, I'm not a great fan of the piping kits, particularly on early versions and I think the APS and Hyperflow pipework is superior (although at a considerable price premium) but the later hybrid tube and fin cores are certainly well capable. The sharp eyed out there may have noticed the letters H, D and I on a recent 8 second race car ! For a small fee I may allow you to use that in your advertising.

Happy new year

Andy

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Shaun: Thanks for that. I will be looking at the possibility of a twin scroll on another project and expect to speak to Ian Litchfield when my plans firm up. He has obviously put a lot of effort in to this.

Andy :

Yes I am fully aware of the spec.
My point was that with a front mount they have a car capable of contributing in all disciplines. Handling, quarter mile and top speed and the versatility of the car was demonstrated at TOTB. The point is that they contributed 75% of the Subaru Team points and they have had no serious engine or other reliability issues throughout the season including time attack.

As many people on here will know, I point out to them that the New Age STi top mount is a big improvement on anything fitted to a Classic and they should not contemplate a front mount until they are in to the 400 bhp bracket and that has been my position for some considerable time. On a Classic 93-96 there are advantages from a Hybrid front mount before 300 bhp and on 97-98 cars and 99-00 there is a strong case for a front mount at just a little over 300 bhp and certainly by 320 bhp subject to the turbo in use.

I run an APS FMIC on one Classic and I am about to change that to a Hybrid. Three other cars, including 2.5 P1 run Hybrid front mounts. During mapping Bob Rawle commented on the superior performance of the Hybrid over the bar and plate APS, all in similar mapping conditions.
As I said above I am happy to supply you a Hybrid FMIC in the right application and how much it costs you depends on how prominent the advertising will be.

Happy New Year Everybody. Interesting times. Lang may yer lum reek.

stevie1982

iTrader: (16)

If Bob Rawle thought that a top mount was the way forward why has he been running a front mount on his STi 5 for the last ??? years? [/quote]

ha its not his sti 5 anymore

and also i have to say well done to andy and harvey for putting thier personal opinions out on the table and not bum fighting over it. its also nice to hear the opinions of tuners who have actual proof of what they say and explaining what they mean so a normal person can understand.

TimH

iTrader: (11)

Hmmm...have I made an expensively poor choice in going for an APS DR725 rather than a Hybrid I wonder

Shaun

Andy,
Would my heavier, larger turbo'd (increased lag), Hyperflow FMIC (even more lag) equipped car that beat you in the final, of been even quicker with a TMIC then?!

No disrespect, as us "shopping car" owners need to stick together.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Compromises is what everything is about.

Obviously running scottimax negates some need for charge cooling

Andy.F

Sorry Shaun, are you comparing your stripped out pro class car results with my road class car ?
If so then the answer is probably still yes
I do know however my other 'pro' class car with tmic was approx 2 seconds quicker again than my road car when comparing to other cars at totb.. Comparing cars in the same class is perhaps a bit fairer don't you think ?

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

FPMSL ... what's involved in a bum fight

TX.

scoobiewrx555

Duncan, correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you win your Time Attack class running the APS DR725?
Was it an expensively poor choice?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

The APS FMIC is very good but I havent tried one of harvey's fmic's on my car to be able to measure how much better it is than that. As such it would be very hard to say whether it is worth the extra money. As far as I know there isnt a hybrid kit to fit mine though.

TimH

iTrader: (11)

Very interesting to know if there are any direct comparisons of a "Harvey" FMIC versus a DR725...mine's being fitted in 3 weeks, and it's not too late to buy a Hybrid and sell the DR725 (to someone who hasn't read this thread ).

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I doubt that there are 'any' objective tests.