Piracy laws
05 January 2010, 12:12 AM
#91
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They are not all the same, another popular one is FBI in big red letters.
Point being, why should someone have to sit through 15 seconds, three languages of copyright warnings and threats from the FBI and in the US you can't even skip it now
05 January 2010, 12:12 AM
#92
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Keep your pants on. 
I asked the question earlier, as we were discussing downloading films/music, and you were the one who viewed it as theft.
You never answered my question so I merely asked again. I never gave an opinion about (your) software. As this thread wasn't really focusing on software 'theft'. I don't, to be fair, know if that is viewed the same way as music and films.
I didn't ask the question to be awkward, but both fall under 'copyright infringement' no matter how you might want to see it differently. And to some, both borrowing something to try before buying, or downloading for the same purpose would be much the same, and fall foul to the same laws.
It's very different doing either to distribute for profit, but that's not what we are talking about here.
No need to get arsey. It's a simple question, just answer and I'll move on.
This thread has mainly relvolved around downloading movies, and you consider it theft, I'm just trying to see where exactly you sit with this.
I asked the question earlier, as we were discussing downloading films/music, and you were the one who viewed it as theft.
You never answered my question so I merely asked again. I never gave an opinion about (your) software. As this thread wasn't really focusing on software 'theft'. I don't, to be fair, know if that is viewed the same way as music and films.
I didn't ask the question to be awkward, but both fall under 'copyright infringement' no matter how you might want to see it differently. And to some, both borrowing something to try before buying, or downloading for the same purpose would be much the same, and fall foul to the same laws.
It's very different doing either to distribute for profit, but that's not what we are talking about here.
No need to get arsey. It's a simple question, just answer and I'll move on.
This thread has mainly relvolved around downloading movies, and you consider it theft, I'm just trying to see where exactly you sit with this.
You keep asking me a question and saying you want to find out how far I go with this etc. etc. when I don't 'go' with what you're asking at all because I don't see lending a CD to a mate as being the same as downloading movies., music and software illegally, a fact I have repeated ad nauseum on this thread and the other.
While we're on the subject of illegal downloads all this holier than thou crap about 'if I like it when I see it I may then buy it' is utter bollocks and you know it is. It makes me laugh every time I read it as does the 'if it were cheaper in the first place' tosh.
It's beome a culture to illegally download and the only difference between downloading a movie and nicking a DVD is you are way more likely to get caught nicking a DVD i.e. illegal downloads are a lot easier to do.
Finally I brought the subject of my software into this as it is exactly the same as a movie or an album. An electronic file downloaded without permission and used without permission. I sued for theft and won.... hence why I see it as theft.
Last edited by f1_fan; 05 January 2010 at 12:14 AM.
05 January 2010, 12:47 PM
#93
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Do you have broadband Les? It's one phone line and one set of login credentials per household, and the connection is shared by everyone on the home network. In my case that would be my PC, my wife's PC, my smart phone, and a number of other devices which either use or can themselves be accessed over the internet.
Thankfully I don't have kids of my own to worry about. I do, however, live within wireless network range of a school - and I can't possibly be expected to vouch for or influence the behaviour of hundreds of sixth-formers with access to computers. My network is secured using industry standard, reasonably up-to-date technology, but do you see now why I might have cause to be concerned?
See above. The wireless network issue in particular is a huge deal - unless, of course, you think everyone should be responsible for the actions of their neighbours as well as monitoring everyone in their own household 24 hours a day? How practical is that? Who would ultimately benefit from such vigilance? Who should bear the cost?
Agreed - and, for the record, all my music is 100% legitimate too.
Unfortunately if it's made more difficult or risky to use one's own internet connection to share music, it doesn't take a genius to work out that people will simply start using connections that belong to other people. It's already the case that if you're using WEP encryption on your WLAN you might as well not bother encrypting your connection at all...
Thankfully I don't have kids of my own to worry about. I do, however, live within wireless network range of a school - and I can't possibly be expected to vouch for or influence the behaviour of hundreds of sixth-formers with access to computers. My network is secured using industry standard, reasonably up-to-date technology, but do you see now why I might have cause to be concerned?
See above. The wireless network issue in particular is a huge deal - unless, of course, you think everyone should be responsible for the actions of their neighbours as well as monitoring everyone in their own household 24 hours a day? How practical is that? Who would ultimately benefit from such vigilance? Who should bear the cost?
Agreed - and, for the record, all my music is 100% legitimate too.
Unfortunately if it's made more difficult or risky to use one's own internet connection to share music, it doesn't take a genius to work out that people will simply start using connections that belong to other people. It's already the case that if you're using WEP encryption on your WLAN you might as well not bother encrypting your connection at all...
Are you using a wireless connection which could be intercepted, I only use a connection direct to the phone line and hope that can't be intercepted.
Bit worrying about the lack of protection by the encryption.
Les
05 January 2010, 01:05 PM
#94
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Yes, I have PCs and other equipment all over the house, and it's all linked by a wireless network sharing a single broadband connection. It's a very common setup, but it does mean that anyone with enough determination and motive can theoretically break in and use my connection. Moreover, it would be entirely without my knowledge until the threatening letters started to arrive.
05 January 2010, 04:10 PM
#96
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Or is cherry picking the laws one obeys ok for some but not others?
cheers richie
05 January 2010, 04:23 PM
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Yes, I have PCs and other equipment all over the house, and it's all linked by a wireless network sharing a single broadband connection. It's a very common setup, but it does mean that anyone with enough determination and motive can theoretically break in and use my connection. Moreover, it would be entirely without my knowledge until the threatening letters started to arrive.
05 January 2010, 05:24 PM
#98
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Now who's going to own up to stealing music?
p.s. I also stole a humbug from Woolies pick and mix when I was a lad.
05 January 2010, 05:48 PM
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That's hardly Devils Advocate and more Stalker. I fully admit to tax evasion when I managed to import a PSP from Japan without being charged import duty, bear in mind that no evasion tactics were used, just the post office. Am I guilty of Theft, yes, I could have gone to the tax office and paid up.
Now who's going to own up to stealing music?
p.s. I also stole a humbug from Woolies pick and mix when I was a lad.
Now who's going to own up to stealing music?
p.s. I also stole a humbug from Woolies pick and mix when I was a lad.
So you admit that you are no better than persons that download stuff(shoplifting and theft) without paying yet seem to feel it your right to become "holier than thou" when it suits.
Pot kettle and black are a few words that come to mind.
cheers richie
PS I have never stolen any music-HTH
05 January 2010, 06:10 PM
#100
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Suppose, for example, that someone steals your car. That's a PITA, of course, expensive and time consuming but unlikely to be the end of the world. So you take reasonable precautions - lock the doors and use the immobiliser - but accept that if someone really wants it then they'll find a way to take it.
Now, though, suppose a change in the law meant that you remain liable for anything that's done with your car even after it's been stolen - and that the prosecution doesn't even have to prove, to a proper standard, that you were responsible for it at the time. What happens then if it's taken and involved in a hit-and-run? That factory immobiliser doesn't seem so adequate now...
05 January 2010, 06:19 PM
#101
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Not a stalker just have a reasonable memory of threads I have posted on.
So you admit that you are no better than persons that download stuff(shoplifting and theft) without paying yet seem to feel it your right to become "holier than thou" when it suits.
Pot kettle and black are a few words that come to mind.
cheers richie
PS I have never stolen any music-HTH
So you admit that you are no better than persons that download stuff(shoplifting and theft) without paying yet seem to feel it your right to become "holier than thou" when it suits.
Pot kettle and black are a few words that come to mind.
cheers richie
PS I have never stolen any music-HTH
That's the stalker out of the way, back to the question, is illegally downloading music theft?
05 January 2010, 06:49 PM
#103
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The holier than thou attitude is your stance on piracy as opposed to tax evading-one is without doubt theft the other seems a grey area(as in not defined as theft) at the moment but you appear to condone one but not the other-anyone would think that you were a software writer or similar with a vested interest
cheers richie
ps are you still into the flying thing and if so have you been up of late as I'd love to see a few vids of the uk iced and snowed from the heavens?
05 January 2010, 07:04 PM
#104
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Yup still into the flying thing, but a wuss when it comes to the cold so nothing icy to show.
I don't give a monkeys what people do, just as long as they know what they're doing is wrong and don't rub it into my face. I know I did wrong and admit it, others here will defend their crime to the hilt as this thread has shown.
I don't give a monkeys what people do, just as long as they know what they're doing is wrong and don't rub it into my face. I know I did wrong and admit it, others here will defend their crime to the hilt as this thread has shown.
05 January 2010, 07:10 PM
#105
I don't think anyone has admitted a crime on this thread, the only person that has is f1-fan. All everyone else has done is state that downloading isn't theft. There is even a picture at the top of this page and no where does it state theft, it states copyright infringement and thats what downloading is 
I bet this man wishes it was theft as he would only have a small fine In fact it would of been in his best interests if he had of just stolen the albums.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8441306.stm
I bet this man wishes it was theft as he would only have a small fine
In fact it would of been in his best interests if he had of just stolen the albums.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8441306.stm
Last edited by stevebt; 05 January 2010 at 07:14 PM.
05 January 2010, 07:12 PM
#106
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A definition of theft that will not sit well with most on this thread.
Theft (also known as stealing) is, in general, the wrongful taking of someone else’s property without that person’s willful consent. In law, it is usually the broadest term for a crime against property. It is a general term that encompasses offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception), and sometimes criminal conversion. Legally, theft is generally considered to be synonymous with larceny.
(Source: Wikipedia – Theft)
Theft (also known as stealing) is, in general, the wrongful taking of someone else’s property without that person’s willful consent. In law, it is usually the broadest term for a crime against property. It is a general term that encompasses offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception), and sometimes criminal conversion. Legally, theft is generally considered to be synonymous with larceny.
(Source: Wikipedia – Theft)
05 January 2010, 07:15 PM
#108
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I moved before I found what happened in the end, but I suspect the case was thrown out as it would be impossible to prove whether the joyriders had caused the tyre to lose pressure or even let the tyre down, but the precedent is there.
05 January 2010, 07:34 PM
#109
A definition of theft that will not sit well with most on this thread.
Theft (also known as stealing) is, in general, the wrongful taking of someone else’s property without that person’s willful consent. In law, it is usually the broadest term for a crime against property. It is a general term that encompasses offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception), and sometimes criminal conversion. Legally, theft is generally considered to be synonymous with larceny.
(Source: Wikipedia – Theft)
Theft (also known as stealing) is, in general, the wrongful taking of someone else’s property without that person’s willful consent. In law, it is usually the broadest term for a crime against property. It is a general term that encompasses offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception), and sometimes criminal conversion. Legally, theft is generally considered to be synonymous with larceny.
(Source: Wikipedia – Theft)
Copyright infringement is often equated with theft, for instance in the title of the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997, but differs in certain respects.
Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not (for the purpose of the case) constitute stolen property, and writing:
A British Government's report, Digital Britain, characterizes online piracy as a form of theft: "Unlawful downloading or uploading, whether via peer-to-peer sites or other means, is effectively a civil form of theft."[57]
Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not (for the purpose of the case) constitute stolen property, and writing:
interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ... The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.
—Dowling v. United States , 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218
The key distinction generally drawn, as indicated above, is that while copyright infringement may (or may not) cause economic loss to the copyright holder, as theft does, it does not appropriate a physical object, nor deprive the copyright holder of the use of the copyright. That information can be replicated without destroying an original is an old observation,[55] and a cornerstone of intellectual property law. In economic terms, information is not a rival good; this has led some to argue that it is very different in character, and that laws for physical property and intellectual property should be very different.[56]—Dowling v. United States , 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218
A British Government's report, Digital Britain, characterizes online piracy as a form of theft: "Unlawful downloading or uploading, whether via peer-to-peer sites or other means, is effectively a civil form of theft."[57]
05 January 2010, 07:43 PM
#110
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And here's the important bit, thank you.
"A British Government's report, Digital Britain, characterizes online piracy as a form of theft: "Unlawful downloading or uploading, whether via peer-to-peer sites or other means, is effectively a civil form of theft.""
"A British Government's report, Digital Britain, characterizes online piracy as a form of theft: "Unlawful downloading or uploading, whether via peer-to-peer sites or other means, is effectively a civil form of theft.""
05 January 2010, 07:53 PM
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05 January 2010, 08:08 PM
#113
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I'll take the word of the Government over the word of Scoobynet when it comes to defining Theft.
Steve, it's not the police you should be worried about, it's the judge.
Steve, it's not the police you should be worried about, it's the judge.
05 January 2010, 08:29 PM
#115
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I am not getting arsey. I am getting tired.
You keep asking me a question and saying you want to find out how far I go with this etc. etc. when I don't 'go' with what you're asking at all because I don't see lending a CD to a mate as being the same as downloading movies., music and software illegally, a fact I have repeated ad nauseum on this thread and the other.
While we're on the subject of illegal downloads all this holier than thou crap about 'if I like it when I see it I may then buy it' is utter bollocks and you know it is. It makes me laugh every time I read it as does the 'if it were cheaper in the first place' tosh.
It's beome a culture to illegally download and the only difference between downloading a movie and nicking a DVD is you are way more likely to get caught nicking a DVD i.e. illegal downloads are a lot easier to do.
Finally I brought the subject of my software into this as it is exactly the same as a movie or an album. An electronic file downloaded without permission and used without permission. I sued for theft and won.... hence why I see it as theft.
You keep asking me a question and saying you want to find out how far I go with this etc. etc. when I don't 'go' with what you're asking at all because I don't see lending a CD to a mate as being the same as downloading movies., music and software illegally, a fact I have repeated ad nauseum on this thread and the other.
While we're on the subject of illegal downloads all this holier than thou crap about 'if I like it when I see it I may then buy it' is utter bollocks and you know it is. It makes me laugh every time I read it as does the 'if it were cheaper in the first place' tosh.
It's beome a culture to illegally download and the only difference between downloading a movie and nicking a DVD is you are way more likely to get caught nicking a DVD i.e. illegal downloads are a lot easier to do.
Finally I brought the subject of my software into this as it is exactly the same as a movie or an album. An electronic file downloaded without permission and used without permission. I sued for theft and won.... hence why I see it as theft.
yes illegally lending a CD for a mate to copy is exactly the same as illegal downloading (just a different way of moving the product/data – the end result is the same)
the Music industry in particular - and Media industry in general's failure to grasp this simple fact -- has lead to the pathetic situation we have now
they have stuck their collective heads in the sand for so long, I think they have forgotten where it is.
when I hear them witter on and on on the radio or TV, it is clear they still don’t get it, they just don’t get it.
05 January 2010, 09:08 PM
#116
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sorry F1 but your standpoint on this whilst passionate and justifiable (and understandable) in your eyes simply doesn't wash
yes illegally lending a CD for a mate to copy is exactly the same as illegal downloading (just a different way of moving the product/data – the end result is the same)
yes illegally lending a CD for a mate to copy is exactly the same as illegal downloading (just a different way of moving the product/data – the end result is the same)
The key is in the word lend.
I lend you a CD and you listen to it and give it back to me. If you then want to listen again you buy it.
Whereas if you steal it by downloading it you don't need to buy it do you?
Surely you can see the rather obvious difference here.
05 January 2010, 10:20 PM
#118
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Even if you are "hardwired" to the Interweb, it is possible for your PC to be infected with a Trojan - which is a program that runs in the background without your knowledge. Indeed some, known as "rootkits" cannot even be detected by anti-virus programs.
These trojans can be key-loggers (to grab your passwords and credentials for, e.g. Internet banking) or make your PC part of a "bot-net" which is responsible for sending SPAM e-mails; but they could also make your PC part of a(n invisible) file sharing network.
The first thing that you would know is the nasty legal letter through the post
and there would be a presumption of guilt for which you would have to prove otherwise (and how could a non-techy do so, and what would it cost for your defense?)!Our laws of "innocent unless proven guilty" are gradually being eroded away
mb
05 January 2010, 10:32 PM
#120
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Indeed some, known as "rootkits" cannot even be detected by anti-virus programs.
These trojans can be key-loggers (to grab your passwords and credentials for, e.g. Internet banking) or make your PC part of a "bot-net" which is responsible for sending SPAM e-mails; but they could also make your PC part of a(n invisible) file sharing network.
These trojans can be key-loggers (to grab your passwords and credentials for, e.g. Internet banking) or make your PC part of a "bot-net" which is responsible for sending SPAM e-mails; but they could also make your PC part of a(n invisible) file sharing network.
Remember that little incident if you ever feel that the music industry deserves the moral high ground...