TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Scooby owners imput!!

Pug 306 gti-6, bhp per tonne 157, 167bhp standard
Subaru impreza turbo My00 bhp per tonne 177, bhp 215 standard
Audi s3, bhp per tonne 155, bhp 210 standard

Max speeds and 0-60 care of top gear magazine

Pug 306 gti-6 137mph and 8.5 secs (manufacturers figures)
Subaru impreza turbo My00 140mph and 5.2 secs
(tested by top gear)
Audi s3, 139mph and 6.9 secs (tested by top gear)

Now i am talking standard cars here, if you want to put a "chipped" car against a standard car then ok, but remember that subaru do a "warrantied" chip for the impreza, audi dont do one for the s3, bye bye warranty

i think these figures speak for themselves, the s3 is more of a hot hatch than anything else, its not a real 4x4 or awd car as it uses electronics.
You cannot really compare these two cars as one is more practical (the impreza, 4 or 5 door) than the other (3 door hatch)

Tony

AllanB

I've driven an S3 amongst many other cars and was very impressed by the build quality . Very nice , expensive looking cabin if a bit sombre but miles better than the Scoob apart from the seats which looked great but could not adjust to get totally comfy. Where I felt the Scoob won me over was as a drives car. The steering seemed a tiny bit charper on the Scoob and I felt the Audi felt a little bit lacking in feedback from the chasis . What I really hated on the S3 where the gear change and the brakes. I could not get over how horrible the breakes were. They have the same spongy VAG group feel as a Golf. They had the stopping power but were too all or nothing for my liking.

Both are great cars just slightly different in character. Went for the Scoob as I found it nicer to drive but the Audi was defintely the better built of the two.


AllanB

drabels

Actually, I believe the modern Porsches use a centre viscous diff to distribute power.

Normally operating conditions see it putting %95 to the rear, and up to %40 to the front when needed (this is set by putting slightly larger diameter tyres up front, fooling the system into believing there is slip at the rear.)

Earlier models used "proper" mechanical diffs (eg. 964 Carrera 4) where the drive could be locked for permanent awd.

Even the 959 used multiple clutch packs to control drive...

The only system the S3 drivetrain reasonably compares to is the old Calibra 4x4 Turbo. Make of that what you will.

The GTR system is pretty ordinary, as it actually sends LESS torque to the front wheels when yaw angles get greater... Good for power-on oversteer, but not very fast.

Having said that, the S3 - chipped, is an awesome drive. I drove a model here in Australia with 185kw (~250hp) and 350nm (260 ft-lb) and it simply flew... Of course, this means there is no engine warranty, and by boosting output so significantly, you can't help but wonder WHEN it will break?

Things I didn't like about it?

1/ Gearshifter is like stirring porridge
2/ Steering lacks any feel what-so-ever
3/ Pedals are overly light
4/ Not enough engine noise (sounds like the proverbial sewing machine...)
5/ It costs more than a scoob, for a lot less driver involvement
6/ Looks like a tarted up golf

Things I liked about it

1/ Interior quality...
2/ Exterier quality... :-)
3/ Awesome sound system.
4/ General feel and finish to the product

In short, you're paying for a different sort of car. You can see someone who regularly attends business functions, or is a manager driving an S3. It's the people who car less about "look and feel" and more about driving who take the Impreza.

I'm certainly glad I have the Subaru, + an additional $20k in my pocket (in theory at least :-)

Regards,

Daniel.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Ahhh, the Mitsubishi is a 4wd car, the active yar control just distributes the power, it still has the main ingredients for a 4wd car, a diff

Ta

Tony

Audidude

SSE, you describe the S3 4x4 system as a "wannabee".

The Skyline GTR and Porsche 959 and 996 911 turbo systems direct drive to two wheels and only use the other two when needed, as does the S3 system. The S3 defaults to the front two wheels whereas the others to the rear. Does this make them wannabes too? Try telling that to Citroen who are using the Haldex in their factory rally cars.

Most criticisms I have read about the S3 system come from those who have little driving experience of it, who see that it is FWD when no slip is present and label it in terms similar to what you have used.

I had a torsen equipped A4 quattro for over 4 years and have driven my friends RS4 a lot. Both torsens are great with predictable and stable understeer over the limit (they don't snap into oversteer as some Sube systems do). Less exciting but safer.

The S3 system gives a beautiful rear drive bias close to the limit beyond which it sledges the front as do the torsen cars. The difference is that due to the ability of the Haldex to transfer up to 100% of the drive to the rear the ultimate traction out of the corner is higher before understeer sets in - my friend's RS4 can't keep up with my S3 when it gets twisty, mainly because he is limited in how much power he can apply due to understeer. Remember that a torsen can only split torque up to 70/30.

My only reservation about the Haldex relates to high speed lift off oversteer which I believe was the cause of the "TT problem". Because the Haldex can alter torque so rapidly and completely I do not it believe it is as benign as the torsen in extremis. Audi's Electronic Stability Programme (ESP) takes care of this but at the expense of dumbing down the car on the limit, as do all such systems - driven a Merc or BMW with this sytem?? Much more intrusive than such a system on an AWD car.

Your comments about your previous A3 are absolutely right - lighter weight will always improve how a car feels although I would never trade AWD for this

Snow with Haldex? - not tried it yet but on our BBS we have reports from some who say it is suss and others who love it. Guess I have to wait for winter - stinking hot humid summer here at present.

Cheers
Audidude - aka Greg Spark
New Zealand

Audidude

TonyBurns writes:
"its not a real 4x4 or awd car as it uses electronics."

That eliminates the Porsche systems, Mitsi Evo, Skyline GTR, S3.

That leaves us with .......um - Subaru as the only TRUE AWD sytem.

You win

Cheers

Audidude

Drabels:
Porsche do NOT use a viscous coupling for the centre diff.

They and indeed the Skyline GTR use computer controlled hydraulic multiplate clutches. This is exactly what a Haldex is - a computer controlled multi-plate clutch!

The following are quotes from an authoritative article by Eliot Lim available here:

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Hiya Greg,
The point i am trying to make is that the s3 isnt a real 4x4 because its not mechanical in the same way "real" 4x4 are, ive had alot of experience with 4x4 (was in the army for 11 yrs) and the audi S3 has gone the cheaper way about this, its using the same type tech as vauxhall did on the calibra 4x4, which beleive it or not isnt a real 4x4 oh and when it went wrong, it went wrong the expensive way!! (and they went wrong quite alot lol!!)
Here is a quick list of cars that are 4x4 or awd and some that aint!

These are either 4x4 or awd.
Subaru impreza,
ford cosworth
mitsubishi evo's

These ones are pretend
Landrover freelander
Audi S3
Vauxhall calibra turbo

The easiest way to work this out is to look under the bonnet of your car, see which way the engine is and work it out from there

The audi TT problem was caused by bad aerodynamics, thus the little spoiler they now stick on the back (its only an option here and not a recall!!) i beleive that a few of them crashed whilst doing 90mph on straight roads, making nice dents in the central reservation on the motorway, as for lift off oversteer, surely you must have been in an impreza?!!! biggest cause of write offs!!

As for audis/vw's i dont rate them that highly to be honest with you, i did some time working for them and the in joke was that they would be back in after 3 years to have the sunroof fixed as they leaked! they also emphasise safety yet its not the class leader, a poxy renault megane is?!!! and it weights less too!! (i also think it wasnt in the top 3 actually when tested!)
They are a nice car, and yes i can tell if i see one, saw one on saturday, those big alloys sort of gave it away but its not a car that i would buy, i want practicallity and the s3 doesnt do that for me, its only 3 door to start with, its boot is half the size of mine, its not as thirsty granted but do they put a warning on your engine about running it down??? nope! well not over here anyway, want to see how long it will take to see all those smoking turbos and the biggest down side is that its too bloody heavy!!! I dont know what its like down there but its not a class leader over here and i dont think it ever will be, there are better, cheaper alternatives and thats what people want, as for getting nicked, i bet there are a few that have gone missing so far, i wonder what the government have it classed as (s3 in general) for nickability!

Cheers
Tony

drabels

Audidude:

Your quote just prooves that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the Net. The Porsche system DOES use a SIMPLE viscous unit - for the maintstream cars. In fact, the last two generations don't even come with LSD (but rather use ABS sensors to brake the rear wheels individually - a poor form of traction control.)

Audidude

Drabels:

Thanks for your informed reply and the interesting links. I fully accept the modern porsches (including the 996 turbo) use a viscous (silicon) multi-plate clutch for a centre diff. Here's another link that you may already have seen:

Chins

Greg

The price difference in the UK between an S3 and Impreza is only 15%. So price is not really an issue when people make choices here.

Jonathan

drabels

Audidude:

I agree with everything you have said, in the previous post ;-)

The S3 is an awesome car - let me just get that in right now... Especially once chipped, you get a lot of torque down low that makes for some very pleasurable driving.

I can think of only one reason why some people would not consider the S3's drivetrain a "proper" 4x4 system - and it may have something to do with the slight "lag" associated with the hydro-electric system.

Also, I believe if you step off the throttle, all drive to the rear wheels is cut off - hence the reason for the TT and S3 having a more pronounced lift-off oversteer effect!

Funny enough, once upon a time, Porsche drivers used to pay a lot of money for this privilege!!! ;-)

For me, I took a very serious look at the S3. I liked a lot of things about it, but I was looking for a different sort of car. That fact that it was completely outside of my budget, couldn't be overlooked either! Simple as that.

I got that last web site address wrong in my previous post. It should be:

pslewis

I think What Car did a comparison in Feb 2000 - the scoobie whoooped the S3.

The price difference clinches it beyond all doubt - I think the S3 is £7000 more expensive (for a slower car?)

pete

Chins

Pete

S3 = £24,750 inc Leather, Xenons & decent stereo

MY01 = £21,500 that excludes gold alloys

I keep telling you maths and cars does not mix. Still looking for that 22k P1


Tony

Having owned so called "Proper 4 wheels drive", and electronic systems such as Haldex, I have to say I like the Haldex. You need to be a pretty good driver, and be on the limit to see the diference. If anything the Haldex is slightly more sporty.

My S4 has the so called ORIGINAL system and its no better than the S3. In fact I'll take the S3 for handling and on the limit behaviour.

Jonathan

camk

Why is that once you have a scooby you cannot accept any other car is a good car. Subaru do not have a monopoly on good cars. So electronically controlled 4WD isn't as good as AWD, possibly we should chuck out that crappy ABS then as we're all expert racing drivers, does that mean that a Subaru is in the same league as a Landrover ?
Its also possible to get an import S3 for 20 grand and change against 17 for a Scooby so only a 3-4K difference, plus I'd probably prefer to take my chance on the depreciation monster with the Audi.
When will the Scoobymeisters wake up and realise that yes its a good car but essentially it'll be bettered as technology improves, you guys are probably still running 486's just as they are more of a man's PC....
BTW tyres are the biggest influence in handling in poor snow/cold conditions....when comparing 4WD cars.

pslewis

Chins - the report I was referring to was Feb 2000 - Audi couldnt sell cars at the price they wanted then .... so, yes, the difference may 'only' be £4000 now ONLY!

By the way, keep looking, that P1 at a realistic price will come to those who wait

I am not saying that the Scoobie is the best car in the world and I dont think many on here would claim that either - what it DOES have is a heart and soul that you cant get in many other cars ......... in the same way that a beetle 'gets to you' (the old one!) and a VW Campervan 'gets to you'

There are plenty of great cars out there, BMW's, Audis, etc etc - but they lack that simple ingredient as stated above. Would you wake at 5am 'just' to drive your S4/S3/M3 around??? no, dont think so, cos its got no soul, you just cant love them.

Pete

camk

Its too early to get that sentimental over the scooby yet !!! It'll need a few more years a few more lift off oversteer incidents, TWOC,Ramraid's and big repairs for that 3rd cylinder before we whittle them down to the core of good ones, right now we're up there with XR3's in the 80's. The question is what will the hot car be in 2008.......by that time it probably won't matter as we'll all be banned for speeding

Cammy

Chins

Pete

I'm almost agreeing with you. I accept that the S3 & S4 do not have the sole of a Scooby. Dont know about the new M3 - maybe,maybe not.

As Ive ordered a new Scooby I guess your right. Tried to hard to find that P1

Jonathan

pslewis

Dont get carried away Jonathan - you will lose all your friends if you go agreeing with me

All I know is that I have owned about 13 cars and, together with the Calibra, its the Scoobie that fires me like no other.

And I DONT think we are there with the XR3's of the 80's - we are there with the Audi Quattros, maybe.

One thing is for certain - the Subaru Impreza Turbo IS a legend.

You only have to go to my daughters school - all the lads (12-16 years old) think she is so cool as her dad has an Impreza Turbo!!!! these are the buyers who will want my car in, say, 5/10 years time - guaranteeing the Impreza cult status

Pete

drabels

Tony:

The TT had bad aerodynamics, but the hydro-electric clutch is a major cause of the problem too ... either engaging too late, or not at all in situations when you need it.

Mind you, the EVO has it's engine mounted traversely as well, so you never can tell by merely looking under the bonnet!

As far as I know, you don't need to "cool down" the S3, because the system continues to run coolent through the engine/turbo once the keys have left the ignition - very classy!

As far as being too heavy, the new MY01 is only 10kg lighter, not exactly a big advantage!

Actually, in terms of driver response and feedback, the MY01 and S3 are VERY similar!

Long live the old shape :-)

Regards,

Daniel

(Proud owner of a MY00 Red Mica Metalic!)