God fearing folk.... aka Bible Bashers
16 March 2010, 12:19 PM
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16 March 2010, 12:34 PM
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So there's an all powerful being who created the universe as we know it? The thing is, according to the bible and anything written about religion, the only thing that will confirm your belief is dying and ending up in heaven or hell. So unless you believe that spirits are roaming the earth, how could these things be written? It's because they are all just stories written by living people who've let their imagination run riot. As time goes on and science improves, these stories are increasingly being proven fictional.
That doesn't just apply to the bible either, but to all sorts of stories of monsters etc in ancient times. The whole thing smacks of a method of control, especially religion; a way to get people behaving exactly the way you want. It's almost like a law with no need for police. Would have been ideal hundreds and thousands of years ago.
That doesn't just apply to the bible either, but to all sorts of stories of monsters etc in ancient times. The whole thing smacks of a method of control, especially religion; a way to get people behaving exactly the way you want. It's almost like a law with no need for police. Would have been ideal hundreds and thousands of years ago.
16 March 2010, 12:35 PM
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OK, without wishing to ridicule you, because you obviously believe something happened that day which helped you, and that's great, really. But does it not occur to you that you wanted help so desperately that you actually helped yourself?
Prayer is not only unlikely, it is statistically improbable and controlled experiments (which by the way, were funded by religious sources) showed that prayer had no effect whatsoever.
God doesn't listen, and do you know why? Because he doesn't exist.
For some odd reason, Napolean speaks to you, you're mad, God speaks to you, it's divine!
You're joking right? You cannot really be serious about what you said. It doesn't matter what dimension something may be in, or whether it's beyond our current understanding, it still stands, a creator has to come from somewhere, even in another dimension.
It's like those idiots who try and push intelligent design, it doesn't seem to occur to them that the argument they use to 'prove' God is actually his undoing as well. Oh the irony!
God is not an answer, it's a lazy way out. Thankfully hordes of scientists over the years have not taken that view otherwise we wouldn't be communicating over the internet now about the (non)existence of some higher being.
Geezer
Prayer is not only unlikely, it is statistically improbable and controlled experiments (which by the way, were funded by religious sources) showed that prayer had no effect whatsoever.
God doesn't listen, and do you know why? Because he doesn't exist.
For some odd reason, Napolean speaks to you, you're mad, God speaks to you, it's divine!
You're joking right? You cannot really be serious about what you said. It doesn't matter what dimension something may be in, or whether it's beyond our current understanding, it still stands, a creator has to come from somewhere, even in another dimension.
It's like those idiots who try and push intelligent design, it doesn't seem to occur to them that the argument they use to 'prove' God is actually his undoing as well. Oh the irony!God is not an answer, it's a lazy way out. Thankfully hordes of scientists over the years have not taken that view otherwise we wouldn't be communicating over the internet now about the (non)existence of some higher being.
Geezer
for all you know the laws of physics dont apply in other places, so why is it so strange to think outside your box?
presumably, youl have the answer to the origins of the universe, life and before,
no? didnt think so.
16 March 2010, 12:36 PM
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It's a standard response, not a defence, and common because it's testably accurately. Simply suggesting it 'won't wash' is a denial of fact and, in my view, intellectually juvenille.
No. Their isn't a reason for it all, we simply are. If you feel comfortable filling the void that exists (if indeed there was one) pre-primus movens with a notional god, I take no issue with that, it is after all a nice way to package it all up. In my observations I have concluded that we, the human race, are an inperfect fluke occupying some quiet out-post of the universe. I also think it's great to be alive and find existence fascinating.
No. Their isn't a reason for it all, we simply are. If you feel comfortable filling the void that exists (if indeed there was one) pre-primus movens with a notional god, I take no issue with that, it is after all a nice way to package it all up. In my observations I have concluded that we, the human race, are an inperfect fluke occupying some quiet out-post of the universe. I also think it's great to be alive and find existence fascinating.
16 March 2010, 12:49 PM
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Basically when I think about the existence of the whole of Space which seems to be limitless with the immense numbers of systems, the billions of years involved with the whole business and the fact that we as a world are pretty small really, and also how life exists and has evolved over the years, I think somehow that there is likely to be some all powerful being who thought it all up in the first place.
Geezer
16 March 2010, 01:05 PM
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if i was joking there would be a smilie mate lol, your reasoning is flawed because you apply laws to it that we live by - that is quite possibly not the case everywhere mate.
for all you know the laws of physics dont apply in other places, so why is it so strange to think outside your box?
presumably, youl have the answer to the origins of the universe, life and before,
no? didnt think so.
for all you know the laws of physics dont apply in other places, so why is it so strange to think outside your box?
presumably, youl have the answer to the origins of the universe, life and before,
no? didnt think so.
If you go for a being in another Universe or dimension, then the same rules apply, if not the same laws of physics. Even if they create a Universe artificially, there is still some starting point for them.
This is not a case of not being able to think outside of a box, or being narrow minded, unlike theistic or deistic belief, funnily enough.
As for the origin of life or the Universe? Of course not, and neither do you, but I just put it down to "we don't know yet", yet being the key word. A creator of this Universe is a possibility of course, but then we just move the question a step back.
To think otherwise, now that really is naive.
The main problem here is simply numbers, people find it so hard to grasp what the Universe is. On a conservative estimate, there are a billion billion planets that would be capable of hosting the conditions that would allow organic chemistry to exist. Even if you allow for the massively low odds of that chemistry happening 1 in a billion times (which, let's face it, is a disgustingly small chance), it means there will be a billion planets where it took place.
That statistic on it's own should be enough to convince anyone capable of logical thought that the rise of life really isn't a surprise and requires no creator at all.
Geezer
16 March 2010, 01:27 PM
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16 March 2010, 01:42 PM
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Born again Christians are an issue. If I'm correct they're actively encouraging an end to this world and there are plenty of born again Christians that could make it happen.
16 March 2010, 01:53 PM
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16 March 2010, 02:04 PM
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It's a standard response, not a defence, and common because it's testably accurately. Simply suggesting it 'won't wash' is a denial of fact and, in my view, intellectually juvenille.
No. Their isn't a reason for it all, we simply are. If you feel comfortable filling the void that exists (if indeed there was one) pre-primus movens with a notional god, I take no issue with that, it is after all a nice way to package it all up. In my observations I have concluded that we, the human race, are an inperfect fluke occupying some quiet out-post of the universe. I also think it's great to be alive and find existence fascinating.
No. Their isn't a reason for it all, we simply are. If you feel comfortable filling the void that exists (if indeed there was one) pre-primus movens with a notional god, I take no issue with that, it is after all a nice way to package it all up. In my observations I have concluded that we, the human race, are an inperfect fluke occupying some quiet out-post of the universe. I also think it's great to be alive and find existence fascinating.
I think you have betrayed your argument when you have to resort to semantics in an attempt to belittle what I was saying anyway. You can't have it both ways.
Les
16 March 2010, 02:10 PM
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So there's an all powerful being who created the universe as we know it? The thing is, according to the bible and anything written about religion, the only thing that will confirm your belief is dying and ending up in heaven or hell. So unless you believe that spirits are roaming the earth, how could these things be written? It's because they are all just stories written by living people who've let their imagination run riot. As time goes on and science improves, these stories are increasingly being proven fictional.
That doesn't just apply to the bible either, but to all sorts of stories of monsters etc in ancient times. The whole thing smacks of a method of control, especially religion; a way to get people behaving exactly the way you want. It's almost like a law with no need for police. Would have been ideal hundreds and thousands of years ago.
That doesn't just apply to the bible either, but to all sorts of stories of monsters etc in ancient times. The whole thing smacks of a method of control, especially religion; a way to get people behaving exactly the way you want. It's almost like a law with no need for police. Would have been ideal hundreds and thousands of years ago.
What will you do should we be subject to a totalitarian government in the future, its on the cards!
Les
16 March 2010, 02:25 PM
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So, who thought him up then? This is what I said before, the argument for a creator also precludes his existence for the same reasons as people seem to think it precludes the way we currently think it started.
But it's not by accident, the Universe as we know is in a highly evolved state. It's naturally entropic, it's how it should happen, and indeed it does. There is nothing particularly mysterious about we are here, now. The Big Bang remains a mystery, but only in the same way that plenty of things we take for scientific fact were mysteries not that long ago.
Interesting that people like to quote proof about as yet unknown things, but like to dismiss any talk of proof when it comes to religion
As you already know, I wholeheartedly agree with you on those last two points Les!!
Geezer
But it's not by accident, the Universe as we know is in a highly evolved state. It's naturally entropic, it's how it should happen, and indeed it does. There is nothing particularly mysterious about we are here, now. The Big Bang remains a mystery, but only in the same way that plenty of things we take for scientific fact were mysteries not that long ago.
Interesting that people like to quote proof about as yet unknown things, but like to dismiss any talk of proof when it comes to religion
As you already know, I wholeheartedly agree with you on those last two points Les!!
Geezer
Yes I agree that the universe is highly evolved over those billions of years. I do support the idea of evolution by the way and that has no effect on whatever else I feel to be a likely explanation to it all. Man will always wonder how we came about of course.
I don't dismiss the thought of proof about our origins. We just don't know and it is by not means certain that we ever will. I am prepared to accept a scientific proof of course, but there are so many theories which people are prepared to accept as already proved. An awful lot of possible fact has to be manufactured at times to even produce a theory!
Les
16 March 2010, 02:28 PM
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16 March 2010, 02:45 PM
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It's not a great leap of imagination to consider there being a top dog/god.
16 March 2010, 03:02 PM
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To see the world around you with no knowledge of cosmology, physics, chemistry, biology or plate tectonics, it's no wonder they initially came up with a God idea.
TBH, it would be more amazing if humans hadn't all come up with the idea.
What is amazing is that the idea has persisted without any shred of proof for so long in the light of all we now know about how things work.
I mean, what has allowed the Greek and Roman Gods to become acceptably mythical and laughable when Jehovah and Allah have not with the same amount of 'proof' to back them up?
Geezer
16 March 2010, 03:50 PM
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The Ending
Time will not continue forever. When we individually die, or when God brings an end to time (as described above in The Dispensations), the Bible teaches we will go into eternity. Some will be
with God in heaven and the rest will be with Satan in hell. This is a solemn thing to contemplate. Where we go one day is decided now in what we think of God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, whether we are Jew or Gentile. There is only one way to heaven given (Acts 4:12).
Hope you all have sat nav
Hell was not prepared for man, but for Satan and his angels (Matt.25:41). It is described as a place of fire and everlasting suffering, and if man continues to follow Satan he will go there. The "great white throne" (Rev.20:11-12) will be set for sentencing (not for a trial), and the glory of God's Son will be manifested. The sentence will be more severe for evil works; and for all those who rejected Christ openly or in their heart--- perhaps following a religion to look acceptable, they will be "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev.21:15). One should thoughtfully consider this. It is the Word of God.
I'll take the ASBO
The children of God will enjoy fellowship with the Father in heaven forever, and the blessings and
happiness will be great and beyond our imagination (I Cor.2:9). The "judgment seat of Christ" (Rom.14:10) will be set to administer rewards there for faithfulness in this life by real Christians.
Get your Tesco club cards ready
SUMMARY
One may not care for THE PLAN and develop his own way (Prov.14:12). That is a choice, but we must say again: God is sovereign, and He has shown something of His plan in His Word. Our place should be in submission and obedience. One should search the Scriptures whether this is so (Acts 17:11).
Bill Gates will be happy
.
Time will not continue forever. When we individually die, or when God brings an end to time (as described above in The Dispensations), the Bible teaches we will go into eternity. Some will be
with God in heaven and the rest will be with Satan in hell. This is a solemn thing to contemplate. Where we go one day is decided now in what we think of God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, whether we are Jew or Gentile. There is only one way to heaven given (Acts 4:12).
Hope you all have sat nav
Hell was not prepared for man, but for Satan and his angels (Matt.25:41). It is described as a place of fire and everlasting suffering, and if man continues to follow Satan he will go there. The "great white throne" (Rev.20:11-12) will be set for sentencing (not for a trial), and the glory of God's Son will be manifested. The sentence will be more severe for evil works; and for all those who rejected Christ openly or in their heart--- perhaps following a religion to look acceptable, they will be "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev.21:15). One should thoughtfully consider this. It is the Word of God.
I'll take the ASBO
The children of God will enjoy fellowship with the Father in heaven forever, and the blessings and
happiness will be great and beyond our imagination (I Cor.2:9). The "judgment seat of Christ" (Rom.14:10) will be set to administer rewards there for faithfulness in this life by real Christians.
Get your Tesco club cards ready
SUMMARY
One may not care for THE PLAN and develop his own way (Prov.14:12). That is a choice, but we must say again: God is sovereign, and He has shown something of His plan in His Word. Our place should be in submission and obedience. One should search the Scriptures whether this is so (Acts 17:11).
Bill Gates will be happy
.
16 March 2010, 04:12 PM
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Problem here is, the laws of physics are the same throughout the Universe, so if a creator exists here, he is bound by them. He cannot do what is attributed to him.
If you go for a being in another Universe or dimension, then the same rules apply, if not the same laws of physics. Even if they create a Universe artificially, there is still some starting point for them.
This is not a case of not being able to think outside of a box, or being narrow minded, unlike theistic or deistic belief, funnily enough.
As for the origin of life or the Universe? Of course not, and neither do you, but I just put it down to "we don't know yet", yet being the key word. A creator of this Universe is a possibility of course, but then we just move the question a step back.
To think otherwise, now that really is naive.
The main problem here is simply numbers, people find it so hard to grasp what the Universe is. On a conservative estimate, there are a billion billion planets that would be capable of hosting the conditions that would allow organic chemistry to exist. Even if you allow for the massively low odds of that chemistry happening 1 in a billion times (which, let's face it, is a disgustingly small chance), it means there will be a billion planets where it took place.
That statistic on it's own should be enough to convince anyone capable of logical thought that the rise of life really isn't a surprise and requires no creator at all.
Geezer
If you go for a being in another Universe or dimension, then the same rules apply, if not the same laws of physics. Even if they create a Universe artificially, there is still some starting point for them.
This is not a case of not being able to think outside of a box, or being narrow minded, unlike theistic or deistic belief, funnily enough.
As for the origin of life or the Universe? Of course not, and neither do you, but I just put it down to "we don't know yet", yet being the key word. A creator of this Universe is a possibility of course, but then we just move the question a step back.
To think otherwise, now that really is naive.
The main problem here is simply numbers, people find it so hard to grasp what the Universe is. On a conservative estimate, there are a billion billion planets that would be capable of hosting the conditions that would allow organic chemistry to exist. Even if you allow for the massively low odds of that chemistry happening 1 in a billion times (which, let's face it, is a disgustingly small chance), it means there will be a billion planets where it took place.
That statistic on it's own should be enough to convince anyone capable of logical thought that the rise of life really isn't a surprise and requires no creator at all.
Geezer
but its that first conversion from an inert set of atoms into organic life, that baffles. its yet to be re-created. im of the beleif life was transferred to the earth via comets ect, but again its the beginnings of life im concerned with.
i also dont entertain the thought of all universes/dimensions haviing equal laws that regulate the way things are.
i dont beleive that there is a creator (or religous god) however i wouldnt totaslly discount it as, i dont feel humans are educated enough to make conclusive statements yet.
i beleive really in a collapsing/expanding universe theory at the moment - but this begs the quaestion for me, what was before? thats when i think - would it really be that strange??
16 March 2010, 05:50 PM
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Religion gets the blame for many things, Northern Ireland for example. But those people use religion just to further their own agenda.
Religion is a source of good and on balance more good is done in the world under the name of religion rather than evil.
You all need to be considerate of the fact that we dont all feel the same way, you should live and let live. Respect others whom you dont agree with.
16 March 2010, 06:26 PM
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How do you feel about having a governement for the country then? Making laws to tell us how to behave etc. Or do you accept that we need laws to be able to maintain an amenable society?
What will you do should we be subject to a totalitarian government in the future, its on the cards!
Les
What will you do should we be subject to a totalitarian government in the future, its on the cards!
Les
Religion is exactly the kind of excuse that's perfect for making totally irrational behaviour like witchhunts seem acceptable. Or maybe we should look at something more current like the catholic priests. They're taking advantage of and bumming young boys; not a problem, they're simple possessed by a demon. A simple exorcism will do the trick and they will no longer be paedophiles! Not that they were in the first place of course, it was the demon doing it.
But if you need something to believe in then religion is ideal.
16 March 2010, 06:45 PM
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i agree with parts of your thinking mate, but im talking about that first spark of life, we know that bactria can survive in space ect ect,
but its that first conversion from an inert set of atoms into organic life, that baffles. its yet to be re-created. im of the beleif life was transferred to the earth via comets ect, but again its the beginnings of life im concerned with.
but its that first conversion from an inert set of atoms into organic life, that baffles. its yet to be re-created. im of the beleif life was transferred to the earth via comets ect, but again its the beginnings of life im concerned with.
As for life on Earth then panspermia is a possibility, but like you say, that does not answer the question of where life originates. But again, the chances, no matter how small would inevitably lead to a universe repleat with life.
It was the beginning of the current Universe.......
Geezer
16 March 2010, 11:20 PM
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Yes you are right there, it really is a matter of opinion, some people call it faith.
Basically when I think about the existence of the whole of Space which seems to be limitless with the immense numbers of systems, the billions of years involved with the whole business and the fact that we as a world are pretty small really, and also how life exists and has evolved over the years, I think somehow that there is likely to be some all powerful being who thought it all up in the first place.
Les
Basically when I think about the existence of the whole of Space which seems to be limitless with the immense numbers of systems, the billions of years involved with the whole business and the fact that we as a world are pretty small really, and also how life exists and has evolved over the years, I think somehow that there is likely to be some all powerful being who thought it all up in the first place.
Les
You obviously don't believe the bible word for word as you mention above the age of the universe in billions of years, but how do you determine what parts to believe and what not to believe?
16 March 2010, 11:52 PM
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17 March 2010, 08:06 AM
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Don't even get me started on the "devil" - as our red pointy eared buddy wasn't even present in religious texts until a bunch of nomadic monotheists ran into a gaggle of polytheists and stole the idea.
17 March 2010, 11:04 AM
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Well, the transition from inorganic to organic chemistry is still one to be properly explained. However, once again, God is a lazy answer.
As for life on Earth then panspermia is a possibility, but like you say, that does not answer the question of where life originates. But again, the chances, no matter how small would inevitably lead to a universe repleat with life.
That is not what I said. I said that the laws of physic apply everywhere in this universe. The laws of physics may well be different in other universes, but they will still be constant in those universes and whoever/whatever exists in them will be governed by those laws.
But some people think we are educated enough to attribute it all to a creator for which there is no proof whatsoever...........
The Universe is expanding, and at an ever faster rate, so don't expect a collapse any time soon! As for what was before, these are difficult questions, as did time exist before the big bang? (if no, then before is amoot point anyway). Also, the Universe wasn't created out of nothing, it was created from a singularity (as best as we can tell at the moment anyway, of course this could be incorrect) so so think of it as a state change as opposed to the beginning.
It was the beginning of the current Universe.......
Geezer
As for life on Earth then panspermia is a possibility, but like you say, that does not answer the question of where life originates. But again, the chances, no matter how small would inevitably lead to a universe repleat with life.
That is not what I said. I said that the laws of physic apply everywhere in this universe. The laws of physics may well be different in other universes, but they will still be constant in those universes and whoever/whatever exists in them will be governed by those laws.
But some people think we are educated enough to attribute it all to a creator for which there is no proof whatsoever...........
The Universe is expanding, and at an ever faster rate, so don't expect a collapse any time soon! As for what was before, these are difficult questions, as did time exist before the big bang? (if no, then before is amoot point anyway). Also, the Universe wasn't created out of nothing, it was created from a singularity (as best as we can tell at the moment anyway, of course this could be incorrect) so so think of it as a state change as opposed to the beginning.
It was the beginning of the current Universe.......
Geezer
I agree that the Universe was not created from nothing. You say it was from a singularity. As I see it, that is a point of infinite gravity and density. It would certainly have to have a massive amount of energy to be able to be the basis for the Universe when you think about it. We are dealing with massive systems when you think of clouds of space dust congealing into planetary systems and the numbers of those that there are that we know about. I think it is reasonable to say there must have been a bang to set it all off. The one question in my mind is, where did that singularity come from? The whole question is fascinating, but will we ever know the real answer?
Even accepting that Space is infinite is quite a difficult thing to get your head around. We only ever see that there are limits to what we see in life.
I still have a worry in the back of my mind that when they eventually get that monstrous accelerometer in Switzerland working, that they might just create a black hole which sounds pretty unhealthy to me!
Les
17 March 2010, 11:21 AM
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So we have a few more years yet before we are sucked into oblivion.
17 March 2010, 11:22 AM
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Problem here is, the laws of physics are the same throughout the Universe, so if a creator exists here, he is bound by them. He cannot do what is attributed to him.
If you go for a being in another Universe or dimension, then the same rules apply, if not the same laws of physics. Even if they create a Universe artificially, there is still some starting point for them.
This is not a case of not being able to think outside of a box, or being narrow minded, unlike theistic or deistic belief, funnily enough.
As for the origin of life or the Universe? Of course not, and neither do you, but I just put it down to "we don't know yet", yet being the key word. A creator of this Universe is a possibility of course, but then we just move the question a step back.
To think otherwise, now that really is naive.
The main problem here is simply numbers, people find it so hard to grasp what the Universe is. On a conservative estimate, there are a billion billion planets that would be capable of hosting the conditions that would allow organic chemistry to exist. Even if you allow for the massively low odds of that chemistry happening 1 in a billion times (which, let's face it, is a disgustingly small chance), it means there will be a billion planets where it took place.
That statistic on it's own should be enough to convince anyone capable of logical thought that the rise of life really isn't a surprise and requires no creator at all.
Geezer
If you go for a being in another Universe or dimension, then the same rules apply, if not the same laws of physics. Even if they create a Universe artificially, there is still some starting point for them.
This is not a case of not being able to think outside of a box, or being narrow minded, unlike theistic or deistic belief, funnily enough.
As for the origin of life or the Universe? Of course not, and neither do you, but I just put it down to "we don't know yet", yet being the key word. A creator of this Universe is a possibility of course, but then we just move the question a step back.
To think otherwise, now that really is naive.
The main problem here is simply numbers, people find it so hard to grasp what the Universe is. On a conservative estimate, there are a billion billion planets that would be capable of hosting the conditions that would allow organic chemistry to exist. Even if you allow for the massively low odds of that chemistry happening 1 in a billion times (which, let's face it, is a disgustingly small chance), it means there will be a billion planets where it took place.
That statistic on it's own should be enough to convince anyone capable of logical thought that the rise of life really isn't a surprise and requires no creator at all.
Geezer
When it comes to life itself, that is a real question. It has not yet been possible to create life and neither can one say how it started in the first place. Scientists can create a chemical and physical form of tissue but they cannot make it live! All the experiments with primeordeal soup did not provide the answer. We have only been able to pass life on from a living form in order to sustain it. Do you think we will find that particular answer? Do you think that chemistry alone can create life however much it is attempted, what can they possibly try which they have not already?
Makes you think alright!
Les
17 March 2010, 11:23 AM
#90
Scooby Senior
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If we ever do find out the answer it may be hugely disappointing for everyone!
Geezer