South Park vs Islam
23 April 2010, 03:09 PM
#181
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Hey up James
. I'm not so bad, a bit crocked with sciatica but okay. sorry I had Iraq in mind when I responded. The 11/9 situation (I can't do with the American back to front format) that's another can of worms. Now I'm not very religious by any stretch of the imagination but I do know killing innocent people is wrong, end of. These nutters hell bent on creating havoc, if only they could martyr themselves without hurting innocent people
. I'm not so bad, a bit crocked with sciatica but okay. sorry I had Iraq in mind when I responded. The 11/9 situation (I can't do with the American back to front format) that's another can of worms. Now I'm not very religious by any stretch of the imagination but I do know killing innocent people is wrong, end of. These nutters hell bent on creating havoc, if only they could martyr themselves without hurting innocent peopleYou are so spot on!
23 April 2010, 03:21 PM
#182
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As far as I am concerned, religion should be held up to scrutiny and ridicule just as much as anything else, it makes society healthier. To deny this freedom is to say we do not live in a society of free speech.
To be told "this is how it is so just live with it", whether it's about religion or anything else, and to stifle discussion, is dangerous - we are intelligent people and we should be allowed to act as such.
To be told "this is how it is so just live with it", whether it's about religion or anything else, and to stifle discussion, is dangerous - we are intelligent people and we should be allowed to act as such.
There is nothing illegal in believing in one of the religions. It is also fair to say that those who follow the basic teachings of the religions will lead a good life. There is nothing that can be said to be wrong with that. No one is trying to convert you or force you into any perticular belief anyway.
If you want to say that you do not believe in religion thats fine and is entirely your affair.
Purely under the aegis of decent behaviour that does not give you the right to jeer at or be offensive towards those who do believe. It is totally unnecessary and does not prove a thing apart from giving a clue to the character of the person who is hurling the accusations about.
Les
23 April 2010, 03:52 PM
#183
Les, anything in the realm of human experience and endeavour is up for some stick, thats how we operate, however I will concur on the point to a certain extent and say it is the spirit in which the stick is given and the ability of who is getting the stick to take it, Islam doesnt seem to have a whole lot of humour involved, seems a very serious business so my view would be to just not go there, baiting them about drawings of the prophet gets an adverse reaction and is not seen as the opening gambit of a friendly banter session. I still think they can be a bit of a grumpy bunch due to all the restrictions, like all religions, they arent allowed a Bacon butty, to see more than a ladies eyes, to have a pint or a swift one of the wrist, no wonder they are a bit touchy.
This message and its contents are in no way a depiction of the Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him), any resembalance is purely coincidental.
This message and its contents are in no way a depiction of the Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him), any resembalance is purely coincidental.
23 April 2010, 04:17 PM
#184
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http://www.cooperativeindividualism....for_earth.html
We really ought to try and get on a bit better; it's all so feckin' juvenille.
We really ought to try and get on a bit better; it's all so feckin' juvenille.
23 April 2010, 04:47 PM
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( To clarify, this is not a personal attack on Les, who I think is a good chap, but an general rant at religious types, hope that distinction is clear)
And should these people be free to wander around without medication and have the vote? Let alone their like-minded friends having seats in the House of Lords and charitable status? Surely thats the real offense here, that fantasists have a priviledged position and status in our society whilst us "plebs/infidels/kaffir/untermensch" slog along without it, and when challenged you claim to be offended and I should stop?!
If you want your belief system to triumph and have respect then Im afraid it needs to earn it, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. So simply put, your beliefs offend me, who's offense trumps whose?
Last edited by warrenm2; 23 April 2010 at 04:50 PM.
23 April 2010, 04:59 PM
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23 April 2010, 05:05 PM
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Well there is a good case to say all those people who belive in religion are mentally ill, they meet the clinical definition of psychosis, talking to imaginary friends, believing a 2000 year old story in the face of overwhealming evidence that it's all cobblers. How else would you define a rejection of reality on this scale?
( To clarify, this is not a personal attack on Les, who I think is a good chap, but an general rant at religious types, hope that distinction is clear)
And should these people be free to wander around without medication and have the vote? Let alone their like-minded friends having seats in the House of Lords and charitable status? Surely thats the real offense here, that fantasists have a priviledged position and status in our society whilst us "plebs/infidels/kaffir/untermensch" slog along without it, and when challenged you claim to be offended and I should stop?!
If you want your belief system to triumph and have respect then Im afraid it needs to earn it, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. So simply put, your beliefs offend me, who's offense trumps whose?
( To clarify, this is not a personal attack on Les, who I think is a good chap, but an general rant at religious types, hope that distinction is clear)
And should these people be free to wander around without medication and have the vote? Let alone their like-minded friends having seats in the House of Lords and charitable status? Surely thats the real offense here, that fantasists have a priviledged position and status in our society whilst us "plebs/infidels/kaffir/untermensch" slog along without it, and when challenged you claim to be offended and I should stop?!
If you want your belief system to triumph and have respect then Im afraid it needs to earn it, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. So simply put, your beliefs offend me, who's offense trumps whose?
23 April 2010, 05:08 PM
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24 April 2010, 01:52 AM
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quite likely. you can watch it here though:
http://www.xepisodes.com/southpark/e.../1405/200.html
http://www.xepisodes.com/southpark/e.../1406/201.html
http://www.xepisodes.com/southpark/e.../1405/200.html
http://www.xepisodes.com/southpark/e.../1406/201.html
24 April 2010, 10:31 AM
#195
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Well there is a good case to say all those people who belive in religion are mentally ill, they meet the clinical definition of psychosis, talking to imaginary friends, believing a 2000 year old story in the face of overwhealming evidence that it's all cobblers. How else would you define a rejection of reality on this scale?
( To clarify, this is not a personal attack on Les, who I think is a good chap, but an general rant at religious types, hope that distinction is clear)
And should these people be free to wander around without medication and have the vote? Let alone their like-minded friends having seats in the House of Lords and charitable status? Surely thats the real offense here, that fantasists have a priviledged position and status in our society whilst us "plebs/infidels/kaffir/untermensch" slog along without it, and when challenged you claim to be offended and I should stop?!
If you want your belief system to triumph and have respect then Im afraid it needs to earn it, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. So simply put, your beliefs offend me, who's offense trumps whose?
( To clarify, this is not a personal attack on Les, who I think is a good chap, but an general rant at religious types, hope that distinction is clear)
And should these people be free to wander around without medication and have the vote? Let alone their like-minded friends having seats in the House of Lords and charitable status? Surely thats the real offense here, that fantasists have a priviledged position and status in our society whilst us "plebs/infidels/kaffir/untermensch" slog along without it, and when challenged you claim to be offended and I should stop?!
If you want your belief system to triumph and have respect then Im afraid it needs to earn it, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. So simply put, your beliefs offend me, who's offense trumps whose?
My point about the behaviour of those whos faithfully follow the true way of life advocated by the various religions is a fair one, It is not the religion itself which causes the problems. It is always down to evil minded people and their own selfish ambitions who take advantage.
Your attack above is unwarranted and totally unfair. I can't think why you feel you have to be so offensive. Is it that you are uncertain yourself and are trying bolster your own stated beliefs to yourself?
How many times have you been personally attacked for your atheist beliefs per se. Yet again let me underline the fact that we are all entitled to our own beliefs. I have no personal wish to attack you for your atheism, only for your nasty attitude towards those who have not caused you any pain. Are you saying that we should go back to the persecution of those who follow a religion? What harm are honest religious believers causing?
It is really so simple, believe what you want but practice a bit of tolerance and wind your neck in over the insults.
Les
24 April 2010, 10:51 AM
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Much of my objection to Christianity and Islam in particular is the exclusive and absolute nature of the beliefs - ie that unless you believe/agree/submit that you are effectively going to burn in hell. Much of the rest is just common sense. However, that inbuilt intolerance combined with commands to proselytize are bound to raise the hackles and result in opposition or even ridicule.
The trouble is, these religions without the hell and damnation would have little point, and if you really believe in hell and damnation it is your duty to "save" everyone by constantly evangelising.
In the eyes of many evangelical Christians, good deeds to another are merely a means of attracting people to God. Now I am not a Christian I can do good deeds simply because it feels right, there is no reward in heaven, my motivation is now much more straightforward, and I have no desire or duty to ram ideas down anyone's throat. I am so much happier with a whole layer of complexity removed from my life.
The trouble is, these religions without the hell and damnation would have little point, and if you really believe in hell and damnation it is your duty to "save" everyone by constantly evangelising.
In the eyes of many evangelical Christians, good deeds to another are merely a means of attracting people to God. Now I am not a Christian I can do good deeds simply because it feels right, there is no reward in heaven, my motivation is now much more straightforward, and I have no desire or duty to ram ideas down anyone's throat. I am so much happier with a whole layer of complexity removed from my life.
24 April 2010, 11:09 AM
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24 April 2010, 11:40 AM
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okily dokily, here we go....
ok heres the first fail, true way of life?! According to a particular belief system, its THEIR way of life, its not mine and its not TRUE!
Oh really? Teaching people that women are inferior, everyone who doesnt follow that religion is inferior, particular races are inferior, and if you leave that religion you need stoning? I think that anyone who says the religion isnt a problem needs to open their eyes and look at the facts.
Yes agreed, but without the framework of thought control it couldn't happen. Remove the problem at the root rather than treating the symptoms.
By saying that people who believe in imaginary superbeings are mentally ill? Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis and tell me how this doesnt apply to a religious person? "People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs" Hmmm, omnipotent creators of the universe fall into that category wouldnt you say? As to you being unable to comprehend, well first of all, offense is in the eye of the beholder, and if challenging a unsubstantiated belief is offensive to you, then that shows a lack of willingness to open your mind to alternative views. I arrived at my opinion through discussions and my own thoughts, seeing how the various viewpoints fitted with the real world. I took care to point out it was not a personal attack, and used no offensive words. To take offense at that shows to my mind a defensiveness of an arguement that is indefensible but which the author has huge emotional stock and investment and hence is hugely unwilling to change. I understand that, and thats life.
No
Well I find that the evidence of the universe tends to support my view so I dont get attacked about them very often to be honest. But I am happy to debate them with you in a reasoned manner
Couldnt agree more, but if you want tax breaks and political control over me, if you want respect for a fantasy story with no supporting evidence then you're not going to get it without an arguement
My feelings are that really I should feel sad for religious people because they are delusional, however if they start interfering in my life and telling me how to behave and how they demand respect under the threat of violence (which is what this thread was all about originally!) then they need a reality check.
Well I could cover this again but have done so above, but bursting a fantasy bubble may be painful but it isnt insulting, and thanks for telling me how to behave! 
Last edited by warrenm2; 24 April 2010 at 11:41 AM.
24 April 2010, 11:51 AM
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Much of my objection to Christianity and Islam in particular is the exclusive and absolute nature of the beliefs - ie that unless you believe/agree/submit that you are effectively going to burn in hell. Much of the rest is just common sense. However, that inbuilt intolerance combined with commands to proselytize are bound to raise the hackles and result in opposition or even ridicule.
The trouble is, these religions without the hell and damnation would have little point, and if you really believe in hell and damnation it is your duty to "save" everyone by constantly evangelising.
In the eyes of many evangelical Christians, good deeds to another are merely a means of attracting people to God. Now I am not a Christian I can do good deeds simply because it feels right, there is no reward in heaven, my motivation is now much more straightforward, and I have no desire or duty to ram ideas down anyone's throat. I am so much happier with a whole layer of complexity removed from my life.
The trouble is, these religions without the hell and damnation would have little point, and if you really believe in hell and damnation it is your duty to "save" everyone by constantly evangelising.
In the eyes of many evangelical Christians, good deeds to another are merely a means of attracting people to God. Now I am not a Christian I can do good deeds simply because it feels right, there is no reward in heaven, my motivation is now much more straightforward, and I have no desire or duty to ram ideas down anyone's throat. I am so much happier with a whole layer of complexity removed from my life.
I have always felt rather that any religion is fair enough depending on what suits you but the most important thing is the way you live your life and your attitude and behaviour with respect to others. Any all powerful being should feel adequately well worshipped by any of the religions whether western or eastern based.
It they take note of Natural Law and encourage their followers to lead a good life and have respect for others, who can say fairer than that? or just follow Natural Law anyway!
Les
24 April 2010, 11:52 AM
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If I recall, the definition of psychosis I was taught in medical school did include a rider that the beliefs had to be out of context with the person's cultural/religious background.
But it is a very fine line sometimes.
But it is a very fine line sometimes.
24 April 2010, 11:57 AM
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Les, if you are a bible believing Christian then you're committed to some very hard hitting exclusivity claims that Jesus is quoted as having made.
The core of Christian belief is that Jesus rose from the dead and the only way to salvation is through him.
The core of Christian belief is that Jesus rose from the dead and the only way to salvation is through him.
24 April 2010, 11:58 AM
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Thats because they realised the PC backlash they would get by labelling religious beliefs as delusional. Its an appeasement fudge, plain and simple
24 April 2010, 12:07 PM
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You'd have a large proportion of the population labelled as psychotic though if you didn't use the fudge. Arguably the reality of the situation however you label it is quite frightening where many people believe something not subject to normal standards of evidence (ie "faith"), and believe it firmly enough that they will make decisions often affecting life and death of them or others based on these beliefs.
24 April 2010, 12:07 PM
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okily dokily, here we go....
ok heres the first fail, true way of life?! According to a particular belief system, its THEIR way of life, its not mine and its not TRUE!
Oh really? Teaching people that women are inferior, everyone who doesnt follow that religion is inferior, particular races are inferior, and if you leave that religion you need stoning? I think that anyone who says the religion isnt a problem needs to open their eyes and look at the facts.
Yes agreed, but without the framework of thought control it couldn't happen. Remove the problem at the root rather than treating the symptoms.
By saying that people who believe in imaginary superbeings are mentally ill? Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis and tell me how this doesnt apply to a religious person? "People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs" Hmmm, omnipotent creators of the universe fall into that category wouldnt you say? As to you being unable to comprehend, well first of all, offense is in the eye of the beholder, and if challenging a unsubstantiated belief is offensive to you, then that shows a lack of willingness to open your mind to alternative views. I arrived at my opinion through discussions and my own thoughts, seeing how the various viewpoints fitted with the real world. I took care to point out it was not a personal attack, and used no offensive words. To take offense at that shows to my mind a defensiveness of an arguement that is indefensible but which the author has huge emotional stock and investment and hence is hugely unwilling to change. I understand that, and thats life.
No
Well I find that the evidence of the universe tends to support my view so I dont get attacked about them very often to be honest. But I am happy to debate them with you in a reasoned manner
Couldnt agree more, but if you want tax breaks and political control over me, if you want respect for a fantasy story with no supporting evidence then you're not going to get it without an arguement
My feelings are that really I should feel sad for religious people because they are delusional, however if they start interfering in my life and telling me how to behave and how they demand respect under the threat of violence (which is what this thread was all about originally!) then they need a reality check.
Well I could cover this again but have done so above, but bursting a fantasy bubble may be painful but it isnt insulting, and thanks for telling me how to behave!
ok heres the first fail, true way of life?! According to a particular belief system, its THEIR way of life, its not mine and its not TRUE!
Oh really? Teaching people that women are inferior, everyone who doesnt follow that religion is inferior, particular races are inferior, and if you leave that religion you need stoning? I think that anyone who says the religion isnt a problem needs to open their eyes and look at the facts.
Yes agreed, but without the framework of thought control it couldn't happen. Remove the problem at the root rather than treating the symptoms.
By saying that people who believe in imaginary superbeings are mentally ill? Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis and tell me how this doesnt apply to a religious person? "People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs" Hmmm, omnipotent creators of the universe fall into that category wouldnt you say? As to you being unable to comprehend, well first of all, offense is in the eye of the beholder, and if challenging a unsubstantiated belief is offensive to you, then that shows a lack of willingness to open your mind to alternative views. I arrived at my opinion through discussions and my own thoughts, seeing how the various viewpoints fitted with the real world. I took care to point out it was not a personal attack, and used no offensive words. To take offense at that shows to my mind a defensiveness of an arguement that is indefensible but which the author has huge emotional stock and investment and hence is hugely unwilling to change. I understand that, and thats life.
No
Well I find that the evidence of the universe tends to support my view so I dont get attacked about them very often to be honest. But I am happy to debate them with you in a reasoned manner
Couldnt agree more, but if you want tax breaks and political control over me, if you want respect for a fantasy story with no supporting evidence then you're not going to get it without an arguement
My feelings are that really I should feel sad for religious people because they are delusional, however if they start interfering in my life and telling me how to behave and how they demand respect under the threat of violence (which is what this thread was all about originally!) then they need a reality check.
Well I could cover this again but have done so above, but bursting a fantasy bubble may be painful but it isnt insulting, and thanks for telling me how to behave!
I think I covered the attempted forcing of one's beliefs etc by violence etc. Those whose attempt that are not true followers of the religion concerned of course and deserve no one's respect.
Many actually find the Universe an encouragement for religious concerns, it was interesting to see the reactions of some of the astronauts when they saw the world from a distance. we must not forget that much of the science is based on theory of course. Let me make it clear that science has always been my leaning in life.
Rather than go into another great peroration, one thing I will say is that when you say you want to burst the bubble of the "fantasy" etc., wouldn't that be the same as some religious freak trying to force you to to see the light?
Why bother and what is the point of upsetting others to no avail?
Les
24 April 2010, 12:09 PM
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You'd have a large proportion of the population labelled as psychotic though if you didn't use the fudge. Arguably the reality of the situation however you label it is quite frightening where many people believe something not subject to normal standards of evidence (ie "faith"), and believe it firmly enough that they will make decisions often affecting life and death of them or others based on these beliefs.
Les
24 April 2010, 12:20 PM
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Les, I would agree on choosing based on conscience, however, Christian belief would suggest we are all wicked since original sin and our consciences should not be trusted beyond the received word of god.
Forcing one's beliefs by violence is prominent in the bible including most remarkably Abraham not being considered a psychotic child murderer but praised for his faith. Very violent threads run through the New Testament as well suggesting ultimately a bloodthirsty, jealous god who craves worship through freedom of choice that is really no such thing. Half the time Jesus talks in riddles and doesn't give straight answers and provokes in a manner that could sometimes be argued as autistic spectrum, yet at other times shows remarkable insight into human nature. Pilate reads as someone quite sensible in some accounts, genuinely interested in justice and the safety of the people. I've not read the Quaran to see how much violence in the name of religion is in there.
Forcing one's beliefs by violence is prominent in the bible including most remarkably Abraham not being considered a psychotic child murderer but praised for his faith. Very violent threads run through the New Testament as well suggesting ultimately a bloodthirsty, jealous god who craves worship through freedom of choice that is really no such thing. Half the time Jesus talks in riddles and doesn't give straight answers and provokes in a manner that could sometimes be argued as autistic spectrum, yet at other times shows remarkable insight into human nature. Pilate reads as someone quite sensible in some accounts, genuinely interested in justice and the safety of the people. I've not read the Quaran to see how much violence in the name of religion is in there.
24 April 2010, 12:21 PM
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to me it is the definition of irony
i.e.
the look on a god botherer's face when you tell him/her he/she may as well believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden
they look at you as if you’re a loony – now that is irony
i.e.
the look on a god botherer's face when you tell him/her he/she may as well believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden
they look at you as if you’re a loony – now that is irony
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 24 April 2010 at 12:23 PM.
24 April 2010, 12:52 PM
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Les, thank you for your reasoned reply! 
Nope sorry, the strongest guide to my acceptance of what's what is EVIDENCE! Therein lies the fundamental difference.
We agree!
Yes wonder is part of the human experience, agreed. Yes there are things science cant explain. Agreed. However my point of view is science cant explain them... YET! It is that sense of wonder and thirst for (evidence based) knowledge that is part of the human beings strengths in my view. It has driven homo sapiens into a unique place in life, and will continue to drive progress making life better for everyone. I do find it odd how a true scientist can be religious, it is totally oxymoronic in my view, a living breathing contradiction. My only explaination is that the sense of wonder of the universe overwhelms the rational thought.
I see your point Les. And if it were the case of religious people simply practicing their beliefs in their own homes, doing no one any harm, then I totally agree with you. In a public discussion forum, however, an invalid point of view is fair game to be challenged. It is through discussion and debate that issues and differences are often resolved, hence my resistance to censure on the grounds of "offense" is so strong. There are many topics in life that are capable of causing offense but to sweep them under the carpet does no-one any favours (in the long run - in the short term it favours the people shouting loudest)
Like I said, in public, ideas, all ideas, need to be put to the test, those that pass, we can absorb and build on, those that fail need to be discarded, for the benefit of all.
Many actually find the Universe an encouragement for religious concerns, it was interesting to see the reactions of some of the astronauts when they saw the world from a distance. we must not forget that much of the science is based on theory of course. Let me make it clear that science has always been my leaning in life.
Like I said, in public, ideas, all ideas, need to be put to the test, those that pass, we can absorb and build on, those that fail need to be discarded, for the benefit of all.