Another unelected PM
12 May 2010, 02:17 PM
#62
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Here is some clarification on who can be Prime Minister:
So, Cameron has not earned the right to become Prime Minister, therefore he is another unelected PM.
Geezer
Doesn't the leader of the largest party automatically become Prime Minister?
No. That's a common misconception. Strictly speaking it is the party which can command the confidence of Parliament that is invited to form the government. This may be the second largest party, if it can do a deal with other parties (as occurred in 1924). Commanding confidence means being able to avoid defeat in Parliament on explicit confidence motions, and the Queen's Speech, and on matters which have always been regarded as confidence issues, in particular the passage of the annual Budget. (See CM Ch 6, para 14-15)
How is it determined who should become Prime Minister? Does the Queen decide?
No. Though, formally, the Queen invites one leader to form a Government, there is a strict convention that the Crown should not be brought into political controversy. It is for the political parties to work out who can command confidence in the new Parliament. The Prime Minister will advise the Queen whom to invite to form a government, after the political negotiations have made it clear who can command confidence.
No. That's a common misconception. Strictly speaking it is the party which can command the confidence of Parliament that is invited to form the government. This may be the second largest party, if it can do a deal with other parties (as occurred in 1924). Commanding confidence means being able to avoid defeat in Parliament on explicit confidence motions, and the Queen's Speech, and on matters which have always been regarded as confidence issues, in particular the passage of the annual Budget. (See CM Ch 6, para 14-15)
How is it determined who should become Prime Minister? Does the Queen decide?
No. Though, formally, the Queen invites one leader to form a Government, there is a strict convention that the Crown should not be brought into political controversy. It is for the political parties to work out who can command confidence in the new Parliament. The Prime Minister will advise the Queen whom to invite to form a government, after the political negotiations have made it clear who can command confidence.
Geezer
12 May 2010, 02:36 PM
#63
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Doesn't the leader of the largest party automatically become Prime Minister?
No. That's a common misconception. Strictly speaking it is the party which can command the confidence of Parliament that is invited to form the government. This may be the second largest party, if it can do a deal with other parties (as occurred in 1924). Commanding confidence means being able to avoid defeat in Parliament on explicit confidence motions,
Your own quote spells it out, DC HAS commanded the confidence of parliament, DID lead the party with the most votes, HAD more than 2,000,000 more votes than any other party... where is the unelected bit in all that?
12 May 2010, 02:37 PM
#64
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Geezer, yes he has - confirmed by your quote.
Brown advised the Queen to invite Cameron, and with the coalition has the confidence of parliament
Brown advised the Queen to invite Cameron, and with the coalition has the confidence of parliament
12 May 2010, 02:45 PM
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No, he hasn't. He was not elected by the British public. I don't see how you can fail to see that.
The Conservatives did not win enough votes to get the confidence of Parliament. Only with a coalition with another party were they in a position to do that.
Cameron is as unelected by us as Brown would have been. The illusion of being elected is because the Conservatives got the most seats, but that is not how the system works.
To get the confidence of Parlliament via a public vote you have to gain > 50% of the seats, it's just how it is I'm afraid.
Geezer
The Conservatives did not win enough votes to get the confidence of Parliament. Only with a coalition with another party were they in a position to do that.
Cameron is as unelected by us as Brown would have been. The illusion of being elected is because the Conservatives got the most seats, but that is not how the system works.
To get the confidence of Parlliament via a public vote you have to gain > 50% of the seats, it's just how it is I'm afraid.
Geezer
12 May 2010, 04:12 PM
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I think you are splitting hairs unfairly after the election we have just had.
Cameron was elected as Conservative leader and was in charge of his party during the election.
Les
12 May 2010, 04:14 PM
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not actually true. 323 would be actually needed. the 5 Sinn Fein MPs will never take up their seat as MPs as they will not swear allegiance to the Queen. effectively there are only 645 seats not 650.
12 May 2010, 04:18 PM
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Les
12 May 2010, 04:27 PM
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However, if you read my subsequent post, you'll see why he is not there by the will of the people, and never will be unless they get an overall majority
Geezer
12 May 2010, 04:54 PM
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If the system's faulty and bias...then don;t blame the people.... 2 million more than any other party... that's still a majority in my books..labour weighted seats or not...
12 May 2010, 04:55 PM
#72
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He's there by the will of more people than voted to elect MP's of any other party individually.
No, he doesn't have an overall majority whichever way you look at it, but if you discount all my twattish countrymen and women who vote labour like brainwashed sheep (discount them not because they are *****, but because we have our own Parliament (of Sorts)) then I suspect he may well do.
Speaking from the Scottish Perspective, we have a devolved Parliament and many of our own laws. Under the circumstances I would offer that we should have less say in Westminster anyway.
No, he doesn't have an overall majority whichever way you look at it, but if you discount all my twattish countrymen and women who vote labour like brainwashed sheep (discount them not because they are *****, but because we have our own Parliament (of Sorts)) then I suspect he may well do.
Speaking from the Scottish Perspective, we have a devolved Parliament and many of our own laws. Under the circumstances I would offer that we should have less say in Westminster anyway.
Last edited by Devildog; 12 May 2010 at 04:56 PM.
12 May 2010, 06:11 PM
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Welcome to "democracy"! Just thank crunchie you don't have the BS system of PR in Germany or the totally ballsed up system of MMP in New Zealand based on the German system.
It's good Brown has gone. Bliar took off when the going was good (For him). Will it make any difference to the UK? No, certainly no!
What I would like to see the "coalition do" is get out of the EU.
12 May 2010, 08:53 PM
#76
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Ah, now here is someone who has little idea about electoral process in the UK. In the UK, PM's are NOT elected. The PARTY is elected. I agree, a leader of that party which takes the party to an election should, upon winning, become PM, but it's not always the case. It's the PARTY who choses it's leader and, therefore, PM (If it holds the majority of seats in Parliament of course).
Welcome to "democracy"! Just thank crunchie you don't have the BS system of PR in Germany or the totally ballsed up system of MMP in New Zealand based on the German system.
It's good Brown has gone. Bliar took off when the going was good (For him). Will it make any difference to the UK? No, certainly no!
What I would like to see the "coalition do" is get out of the EU.
Welcome to "democracy"! Just thank crunchie you don't have the BS system of PR in Germany or the totally ballsed up system of MMP in New Zealand based on the German system.
It's good Brown has gone. Bliar took off when the going was good (For him). Will it make any difference to the UK? No, certainly no!
What I would like to see the "coalition do" is get out of the EU.
OK well if I have to spell it out then, he is the leader of a party that was not elected which actually means Gordon Brown technically had more right to be prime minister as at least his party had been elected at the time.
Fact is whether you like it or not the leader of a party is PM elect and has a huge bearing on whether people vote for them or not. Would I have voted Labour in 1997 if Micnael Foot had been the leader.... NO! Would I vote Tory if Ken Clarke was leader... quite possibly.... Margaret Thatcher?..... You are kidding aren't you?
See where I am going with this? And there are millions more like me.
12 May 2010, 09:57 PM
#77
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I don't get all this 'unelected PM rubbish'. We have a parliamentary system, we vote for a party and candidate and the party votes for its leader.
BTW we have had 6 'unelected PMs' in our history, 5 of whom have been Tory
BTW we have had 6 'unelected PMs' in our history, 5 of whom have been Tory
12 May 2010, 11:38 PM
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13 May 2010, 09:03 AM
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Little or no idea about the electoral process in the UK? LOL!
OK well if I have to spell it out then, he is the leader of a party that was not elected which actually means Gordon Brown technically had more right to be prime minister as at least his party had been elected at the time.
Fact is whether you like it or not the leader of a party is PM elect and has a huge bearing on whether people vote for them or not. Would I have voted Labour in 1997 if Micnael Foot had been the leader.... NO! Would I vote Tory if Ken Clarke was leader... quite possibly.... Margaret Thatcher?..... You are kidding aren't you?
See where I am going with this? And there are millions more like me.
OK well if I have to spell it out then, he is the leader of a party that was not elected which actually means Gordon Brown technically had more right to be prime minister as at least his party had been elected at the time.
Fact is whether you like it or not the leader of a party is PM elect and has a huge bearing on whether people vote for them or not. Would I have voted Labour in 1997 if Micnael Foot had been the leader.... NO! Would I vote Tory if Ken Clarke was leader... quite possibly.... Margaret Thatcher?..... You are kidding aren't you?
See where I am going with this? And there are millions more like me.
13 May 2010, 10:00 AM
#81
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Firstly the thread was fairly light hearted.
Secondly many people on here have complained repeatedly ad nauseum that Gordon Brown was unelected and hence I was simply juxtaposing those sentiments on to the new political situation in the UK.
Thirdly and being serious for a minute, as explained regardless of the fact the party is elected many people will vote for a party dependent upon who the leader is and hence colloquially it is widely accepted, even if not technically correct, that to say a PM is elected is the same as saying the party is elected i.e. the two are interchangeable to most and mean the same thing.
13 May 2010, 10:22 AM
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I always vote for the party with the policies which I think will be best for the country, regardless of which colour they are. That will include the elected leader of that party as part of the decision as well.
Les
Les
13 May 2010, 01:22 PM
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Make your mind up Les, on another thread you are saying something completely different....'I vote for the candidate......' etc
13 May 2010, 05:18 PM
#84
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Yes, thats the problem. There are millions of people in this country forever moaning and bitching about everything. They want everything handed to them on a plate, everything is somebody elses fault.
David Cameron is right when he talks about the responsibilities of the citizens of this country. For years Labour has taught everybody to think about their rights, what their country owes them rather than what they can do for their country.
Its about time people realised a society is built on everybody putting something in.
F1 Fan, why don't you stop spending hours posting endless drivel on here and do something to help in the 'Big Society', do as David Cameron says, he is your Prime Minister
David Cameron is right when he talks about the responsibilities of the citizens of this country. For years Labour has taught everybody to think about their rights, what their country owes them rather than what they can do for their country.
Its about time people realised a society is built on everybody putting something in.
F1 Fan, why don't you stop spending hours posting endless drivel on here and do something to help in the 'Big Society', do as David Cameron says, he is your Prime Minister
Last edited by Dingdongler; 13 May 2010 at 05:21 PM.
13 May 2010, 05:48 PM
#85
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Yes I know (sighs).
Firstly the thread was fairly light hearted.
Secondly many people on here have complained repeatedly ad nauseum that Gordon Brown was unelected and hence I was simply juxtaposing those sentiments on to the new political situation in the UK.
Thirdly and being serious for a minute, as explained regardless of the fact the party is elected many people will vote for a party dependent upon who the leader is and hence colloquially it is widely accepted, even if not technically correct, that to say a PM is elected is the same as saying the party is elected i.e. the two are interchangeable to most and mean the same thing.
Firstly the thread was fairly light hearted.
Secondly many people on here have complained repeatedly ad nauseum that Gordon Brown was unelected and hence I was simply juxtaposing those sentiments on to the new political situation in the UK.
Thirdly and being serious for a minute, as explained regardless of the fact the party is elected many people will vote for a party dependent upon who the leader is and hence colloquially it is widely accepted, even if not technically correct, that to say a PM is elected is the same as saying the party is elected i.e. the two are interchangeable to most and mean the same thing.
Democracy? As Bender would say, democracy my shiny metal ***!
13 May 2010, 06:46 PM
#86
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David Cameron is right when he talks about the responsibilities of the citizens of this country. For years Labour has taught everybody to think about their rights, what their country owes them rather than what they can do for their country.
Its about time people realised a society is built on everybody putting something in.
Its about time people realised a society is built on everybody putting something in.
What makes you think I don't already do something like that?
13 May 2010, 06:48 PM
#87
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13 May 2010, 07:31 PM
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I recall a "survey", in Portsmouth, various ages, but a couple of things struck me as odd. One question was; who was the PM on England? Another was; can you find the UK on a globe map? Over 80% of respondants got it wrong!!! Ok, PM, but where you live!!!? They could not identify the UK on a map, or even the major continents. This is the problem. In the age of information, people don't hear.
13 May 2010, 07:56 PM
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It goes beyond that, it extends to the "dumbing down" of the nation which seems to have started in about 1982 in my estimation.
I recall a "survey", in Portsmouth, various ages, but a couple of things struck me as odd. One question was; who was the PM on England? Another was; can you find the UK on a globe map? Over 80% of respondants got it wrong!!! Ok, PM, but where you live!!!? They could not identify the UK on a map, or even the major continents. This is the problem. In the age of information, people don't hear.
I recall a "survey", in Portsmouth, various ages, but a couple of things struck me as odd. One question was; who was the PM on England? Another was; can you find the UK on a globe map? Over 80% of respondants got it wrong!!! Ok, PM, but where you live!!!? They could not identify the UK on a map, or even the major continents. This is the problem. In the age of information, people don't hear.
We live in an age of more information, but less education. Very sad
