Massa interview he takes blame
26 July 2010, 10:44 AM
#31
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northants. 22B sold, as-new Lotus Omega instead.
Posts: 2,027
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
26 July 2010, 11:23 AM
#32
Look - at the end of the day I don't particulary care, however......................
The Ferrari drivers shouldn't be penalised for swapping places any more than say Button/Hamilton for being told to hold station and not overtake each other.
Massa was effectively "told" to let Alonso past, so why should he get penalised for that?
Last edited by urban; 26 July 2010 at 11:24 AM.
26 July 2010, 12:04 PM
#33
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northants. 22B sold, as-new Lotus Omega instead.
Posts: 2,027
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/7980593.stm
And in life in general, if you break the law (eg: speeding) because your boss instructs you to, the police are still going to punish you.
26 July 2010, 12:37 PM
#35
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Scotchland
Posts: 9,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Massa wouldn't be penalised imo....just Alonso and the team, if Alonso was dropped from first to second and Massa from second to first.
At the end of the day, the penalty has been dealt and that's that. It isn't right no matter what way you look at it, but it's done now.
Still can't see Alonso winning the championship anyway, which is the main thing.
At the end of the day, the penalty has been dealt and that's that. It isn't right no matter what way you look at it, but it's done now.
Still can't see Alonso winning the championship anyway, which is the main thing.
26 July 2010, 12:43 PM
#37
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les,
Agreed it's against the rules and they should be penalised, but the fact remains that in terms of the championship it was the sensible thing to do.
They just made an absolute hash of it as a team.
At the end of the day it made no difference to anyone elses race.
All this "it deprived us of a thrilling finish" nonsense is naive. They would have been told to hold station just like all the other teams do to avoid an incident which would have been massively costly in terms of points. Very, very rarely have team mates been allowed to race each other in the closing stages of a GP. And those that have have done so in direct contradiction of the teams wishes.
All it deprived us of was two red cars finishing in tandom but with massa in front.
What would have been a fairer penalty might have been to award massa the points for first and alonso the points for second.
Effectively undoing the change.
Agreed it's against the rules and they should be penalised, but the fact remains that in terms of the championship it was the sensible thing to do.
They just made an absolute hash of it as a team.
At the end of the day it made no difference to anyone elses race.
All this "it deprived us of a thrilling finish" nonsense is naive. They would have been told to hold station just like all the other teams do to avoid an incident which would have been massively costly in terms of points. Very, very rarely have team mates been allowed to race each other in the closing stages of a GP. And those that have have done so in direct contradiction of the teams wishes.
All it deprived us of was two red cars finishing in tandom but with massa in front.
What would have been a fairer penalty might have been to award massa the points for first and alonso the points for second.
Effectively undoing the change.
This is supposed to be a sport after all and I seem to remember that there is such a thing as sporting behaviour to go with it. No good good saying that all the money and the strength of the sponsors of the management is an excuse for a blatant disregard of the rules. If that sort of behaviour prevails, the chamionship means nothing any more! Just as that creep Alonso's so called victory is hollow and totally unjustified.
You can't say we would not have seen an interesting tussle for victory, there is no evidence against that.
Did you see Christian Horner's views about team mates racing each other?
Les
26 July 2010, 12:46 PM
#38
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like?
Look - at the end of the day I don't particulary care, however......................
The Ferrari drivers shouldn't be penalised for swapping places any more than say Button/Hamilton for being told to hold station and not overtake each other.
Massa was effectively "told" to let Alonso past, so why should he get penalised for that?
Look - at the end of the day I don't particulary care, however......................
The Ferrari drivers shouldn't be penalised for swapping places any more than say Button/Hamilton for being told to hold station and not overtake each other.
Massa was effectively "told" to let Alonso past, so why should he get penalised for that?
Les
26 July 2010, 12:47 PM
#39
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Scotchland
Posts: 9,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe it ISN'T all done and dusted afterall...
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin...0/7/11071.html
Are the stewards thinking they may not have dealt a large enough punichment, or is that the FIA's call?
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin...0/7/11071.html
Are the stewards thinking they may not have dealt a large enough punichment, or is that the FIA's call?
26 July 2010, 12:49 PM
#41
Scooby Senior
Unless they have written punishments for the rule break taking place this will always happen.
You would think a concern like F1 would have strict rules with detailed punishments already set...
You would think a concern like F1 would have strict rules with detailed punishments already set...
26 July 2010, 12:52 PM
#42
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MK
Posts: 4,931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i agree 
Les,
Agreed it's against the rules and they should be penalised, but the fact remains that in terms of the championship it was the sensible thing to do.
They just made an absolute hash of it as a team.
At the end of the day it made no difference to anyone elses race.
All this "it deprived us of a thrilling finish" nonsense is naive. They would have been told to hold station just like all the other teams do to avoid an incident which would have been massively costly in terms of points. Very, very rarely have team mates been allowed to race each other in the closing stages of a GP. And those that have have done so in direct contradiction of the teams wishes.
All it deprived us of was two red cars finishing in tandom but with massa in front.
What would have been a fairer penalty might have been to award massa the points for first and alonso the points for second.
Effectively undoing the change.
Agreed it's against the rules and they should be penalised, but the fact remains that in terms of the championship it was the sensible thing to do.
They just made an absolute hash of it as a team.
At the end of the day it made no difference to anyone elses race.
All this "it deprived us of a thrilling finish" nonsense is naive. They would have been told to hold station just like all the other teams do to avoid an incident which would have been massively costly in terms of points. Very, very rarely have team mates been allowed to race each other in the closing stages of a GP. And those that have have done so in direct contradiction of the teams wishes.
All it deprived us of was two red cars finishing in tandom but with massa in front.
What would have been a fairer penalty might have been to award massa the points for first and alonso the points for second.
Effectively undoing the change.
26 July 2010, 12:56 PM
#43
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Disco, Disco!
Posts: 21,825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
26 July 2010, 12:57 PM
#44
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all we know Massa got re-signed under the proviso that he would be number two to Alonso. I still love the fact that Alonso couldnt hack it at Mclaren thinking he was numero uno until Lewis sh*t on his parade.
Simon
26 July 2010, 01:35 PM
#45
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northants. 22B sold, as-new Lotus Omega instead.
Posts: 2,027
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
But the same goes for everday life too, as per the speeding example set out earlier, which I also thought was a real life one.
26 July 2010, 02:17 PM
#47
Argue it? I work in an office but if by my own performance lets say I was in a Leading rating at my end of year review but my boss said I tell you what let your colleague whose on a lower rating take your leading - Id be asking some serious questions.
For all we know Massa got re-signed under the proviso that he would be number two to Alonso. I still love the fact that Alonso couldnt hack it at Mclaren thinking he was numero uno until Lewis sh*t on his parade.
Simon
For all we know Massa got re-signed under the proviso that he would be number two to Alonso. I still love the fact that Alonso couldnt hack it at Mclaren thinking he was numero uno until Lewis sh*t on his parade.
Simon
I might have a software developer working on client A, but something more important comes up I tell him park that work and do this instead.
He'll just do what is asked, if client A asks him why he's not working he'll just blame me.
26 July 2010, 03:02 PM
#50
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Disco, Disco!
Posts: 21,825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being extreme is no bad thing and show what a weak argument it really is.
The drivers are licensed by the FIA and know the rules and laws. Yes of course they are employed employed by the team. Even if their team asks them to do 'whatever' in this case let the leading driver give up his lead and ultimately his win then it needs to be within the laws of the FIA and both drivers are guilty. I do feel for Massa but TBH he made a choice that he has to live with, Alllar$ehole on the other hand could not give a **** as a win is a win for the excitable, arrogant little tw@t - IMHO that is.
It is not at all sporting and brings F1 down into the gutter
The drivers are licensed by the FIA and know the rules and laws. Yes of course they are employed employed by the team. Even if their team asks them to do 'whatever' in this case let the leading driver give up his lead and ultimately his win then it needs to be within the laws of the FIA and both drivers are guilty. I do feel for Massa but TBH he made a choice that he has to live with, Alllar$ehole on the other hand could not give a **** as a win is a win for the excitable, arrogant little tw@t - IMHO that is.
It is not at all sporting and brings F1 down into the gutter
26 July 2010, 03:05 PM
#51
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Class record holder at Pembrey Llandow Goodwood MIRA Hethel Blyton Curborough Lydden and Snetterton
Posts: 8,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A fairer punishment would be both drivers get 2nd place points and the team get 0 constructors points, that way the drivers have gained nothing and the team lose all points from that race. I'll hurt them more than $100,000, that for sure
26 July 2010, 03:11 PM
#52
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northants. 22B sold, as-new Lotus Omega instead.
Posts: 2,027
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would have been great for us if Massa had had the determination to respond to Smedley's "Fernando is faster than you" call with something like "Good for him: let's see if he can get past then" and just held him off till the end.
It's called Motor-RACING after all.
I don't think his hero Ayrton Senna would have let Alonso past in that situation for all the tea in China.
It's called Motor-RACING after all.
I don't think his hero Ayrton Senna would have let Alonso past in that situation for all the tea in China.
26 July 2010, 05:31 PM
#54
26 July 2010, 07:23 PM
#55
Scooby Regular
26 July 2010, 07:46 PM
#56
Scooby Regular
I disagree very strongly. Why do you say that because it suited the management that it was sensible to disregard the rules of the championship? What is the point of having a ruling body if they can't bring themselves to enforce them properly and provide the correct and meaningful punishment for what Ferrari did?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what they did, Les, I'm just stating it like it is.
The difficulty is that whilst it appeared to the world and his brother to be team orders, the fact is that it would be (contrary to the rubbish Eddie Jordan comes out with) very difficult to prove in a the FIA court that it wasn't Massa's decision to let Alonso past, unless Massa admits otherwise. What I suspect we'll see from the WMSC is Ferrari being charged with bringing the sport into disrepute, given the fiasco that was the way they did it. The evidence is purely circumstantial and will most likely be refuted by witness statements form those involved.
I hope the WMSC reverse the grid positions, but that still doesn't mean that strategically it was the best thing to do points wise at the time.
This is supposed to be a sport after all and I seem to remember that there is such a thing as sporting behaviour to go with it. No good good saying that all the money and the strength of the sponsors of the management is an excuse for a blatant disregard of the rules. If that sort of behaviour prevails, the chamionship means nothing any more! Just as that creep Alonso's so called victory is hollow and totally unjustified.
You can't say we would not have seen an interesting tussle for victory, there is no evidence against that.
Did you see Christian Horner's views about team mates racing each other?
27 July 2010, 08:54 AM
#59
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
27 July 2010, 09:38 AM
#60
No I'm not.
I said that your employer wouldn't ask you to break the law - we'll I most certainly wouldn't ask it of an employee and nor would I break the law if asked.
Breaking/bending rules then yes.
For example those posting on here are probably breaking/bending rules with their employers anyway.
Chances are employers don't condone internet access during working hours and chance are high that it'll be in your contract/company handbook
I said that your employer wouldn't ask you to break the law - we'll I most certainly wouldn't ask it of an employee and nor would I break the law if asked.
Breaking/bending rules then yes.
For example those posting on here are probably breaking/bending rules with their employers anyway.
Chances are employers don't condone internet access during working hours and chance are high that it'll be in your contract/company handbook