Leslie

You must have an enormous faith in modern day employers!

I can't see why you are trying to make a difference between rules and laws. You are effectively saying that it is ok to break the rules in order to bring about a result to a race which suits the management. Do you think we should not have any rules at all with respect to the championship and the cars? How could anyone run a championship that meant anything if that was so.

If the F!A make a rule for F1 racing that is the same as a law. You are expected to abide by those rules and if you deliberately break them then you are at fault as far as the organising body is concerned. Breaking or "bending" them is just not allowed! There is no way you can even say what Ferrari did was "bending" them. It was a straight action against a laid down rule.

They gained extra points for Alonso illegally according to the rules and therefore deserve a significant punishment for that!

Les

Devildog

Not at all. Are you not reading all of my posts?

The question should be what is the correct punishment? The outcome of the race was not affected for anybody else. Very different to crashgate.

The outcome of the championship may well be affected if, for example, Alonso wins by less than the difference between first and second, but then teams have many more ways to influence that all within the regs - giving one driver upgrades before another, for example.

And if the other teams want to avoid that, then they can do so by beating Ferrari on the track.

The only party hard done by here is Massa. And if its in his contract that he has to defer in such situations then I have no sympathy. That's what he signed up to.

I still contend that we were not robbed of a grerat finish, because it simply wouldn't happen. If Ferrari are prepared to swap drivers, they are not going to have them race each other off the track.

The whole thing is a storm in a teacup. We're only still discussing it because Ferrari made a complete **** of the whole event. Before, during and after. And they should be punished for assuming everyone is too daft to notice, if nothing else.

But they did break the rules, and were fined for doing so. I'd like to see the positions swapped back because if that was the penalty, there would be no incentive to do it in the first place.

You say that Ferrari gained extra points - that is not correct. they gained the same points albeit distributed differently between their two drivers.

The Zohan

The rules and laws are there in most cases to protect the employer and employee, you cannot go choosing which you will adhere to and those you won't, that applies to employers and employees.

Unless there is a real danger of a loss of life and/or inquiry then stick to the rules!

Devildog

Agreed Paul - but the punishment has to fit the "crime"

The Zohan

And also agreed, however the crime has altered the result of the race, has affected other peoples chances, sponsorship opportunities and monies earned in bonus's or lack of them for some drivers.

The punishment in this case needs revisiting as the punishment is not a deterrent to anyone involved in F1 and a piddling sum in the scheme of F1, almost laughable.

To stop this going on the punishment needs to fit the crime and deter others, or at least make it not worth considering.

Realistically both drivers having their finishing places removed along with the points and constructors points removed seems fitting/appropriate and will act as a deterrent to future transgressor(s) and transgression(s)

scooby L

It's not been a great week for Spanish sportsmanship has it...what with this and Alberto Contador in the tour de France blatantly lying about not seeing Schleck's mechanical problem and kicking a counter attack at that very moment... did he not know there were camera's watching him?

another hollow victory... and I felt for Schleck

urban

iTrader: (1)

Yes Paul, it might have altered results of the first two drivers points in that race.
But other peoples bonus's or whatever other incentives have not changed.

I still say that what Ferrari have done isn't really any different to McLaren telling Button/Hamilton to hold their positions and not to race each other.

Its a stupid rule at the end of the day and isn't clear cut - too much ambiguity

CrisPDuk

What a shining example you are

I've worked for several employers who 'expected' drivers to break the law; by getting between appointments in impossibly short timescales; by answering their phones, even while driving; by taking their lunchbreaks whilst driving between appointments.

I had countless stand-up rows with one particular boss about all of the above, and more

Turbo2

Some of the sport's greatest-ever moments have been team-mates battling for position in equal cars. When you have great drivers like Piquet - Mansell, Senna - Prost, or even these days Hamilton - Alonso/Button, Button - Barrichello, Weber - Vettel all fighting for the upper hand, it's much more interesting than just having a 2nd driver to get meekly passed at will like we have seen with Schumacher - Barrichello, Hamilton - Kovalainen or Alonso - Massa.

Those teams may as well just run 1 car and not have to worry about issuing team orders to the No. 2 driver!

Leslie

You did not read my post that well in fact. I said that Ferrari gained extra points for Alonso, whch as you said may well affect the eventual outcome of the championship. That could well be very unfair if another bloke loses out.

We don't know about the contracts but Massa did look more upset than I would have expected if he did sign up as you said.

They did break the rules deliberately, no question of that and because of that point in particular they deserve such a penalty that not only dissuades them from any future trangressions, but is also a significant punishment. If that does not happen then they or others will try it on to gain an unfair advantage again.

Les