SJ_Skyline

Totally agree Trout although we still have the likes of TCS, WiPro, Tech Mahindra and Infosys who can undercut our best price by 30%

To compete you really have to choose one of two routes:
- Target work which can't be offshoured: Defence, certain public sector outsources and jobs with IS/DP considerations.
- Grow your own blended delivery capability so you can compete on more even ground.

Leslie

The PC Plonkers have been plotting to destroy this country for years now. They have an inbuilt hatred of Great Britain and want only to see us labouring under a police state while being subsrvient to the Eu.

Les

rabbos

+1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._GDP_%28PPP%29

Seems fairly conclusive tbh

The british are a minor bunch of pompous egomaniacs these days, still harping on about historical 'greatness' when no one has done anything globally significant in living memory (excepting certain scientists)

tony de wonderful

It's a disaster. India and China are buying up our manufactring industry when they are not just selling us consumer goods.

Meanwhile we import asylum seekers and other dregs by the thousands and support a bloated public sector and welfare class with our shriking industry.

We should have gone more like Norway years ago instead of such a free market model.

I wonder what the future holds. The East may be the next economic power culturally and politically they are lacking. They just copied western industry and bypassed liberal politics which we used to help develop us. China will be a massive sock factory with a philistine populace accumstomed to authoritarian government. India is a lot better than China though and I hope India does better or as well.

Pink_Floyd

As someone who is Scottish I quite often find myself getting wound up by the use of the term English for England and the UK. It's a similar sort of thing that happens with sporting personalities, e.g Tom Daly doesn't dive for the UK, he does so for England, but Andy Murray does not compete at tennis for Scotland, it's for the UK

I actually consider myself British and I live in the UK and spent 10 years in the forces, although I reside in Scotland. However in light of what's been written in this thread I'm happy for the title of it to remain 'England is "Junior" Partner to India!'

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Yup, all the skill's we had have gone given away for pittence due to companies wanting to save money and no support from any governments, who just let it happen
On a brighter note, some of it is coming back to europe just to the old eastern block contries like Romania.....

Tony

tony de wonderful

What does 'being Scottish' even mean mate?

It's just a region of the UK at the end of the day.

Pink_Floyd

That's the way I feel about it However there are many who are happy in Scotland to jump on the devolution and independence bandwagon and equally as many south of the border only to happy to supply the stocks and length of rope.......

I see no reason for the UK to be fragmentised.

GlesgaKiss

It's quite right. We're nothing like as productive now as these eastern economies. That's why we're broke and countries like China run surpluses. I mean do you really think otherwise? All you have to look at is the state of our county's financies: debt, debt, and more debt. Oh and spending, which is apparently the key to economic growth. Spend the debt, it makes you richer.

tony de wonderful

Well you got to accept that Protectionism does not really work so you can't help China taking industry that benefits from cheap labour.

My problem is how the government encouraged and supported insane immigration levels. We could have had a smaller population and no industry but we now have a crowded island full of disparate peoples and verious political tensions that they brought with them...and no industry. It's a really divided and messed up society that I see changing before my eyes, to what end?

Somewhere like Norway does quite well without conforming to the Anglo-American turbo type capitalism...it does well economically and more important socially.

GlesgaKiss

[QUOTE=tony de wonderful;9525265]
We should have gone more like Norway years ago instead of such a free market model.
[QUOTE]

You are kidding? Could you explain why you think Norway is so great?

tony de wonderful

It's a big ponzi scheme basically and we use immigration and property to help 'sustain' it.

Who benefits? Banking elites and other economic elites.

tony de wonderful

[quote=GlesgaKiss;9525298][quote=tony de wonderful;9525265]
We should have gone more like Norway years ago instead of such a free market model.
I don't see too many sink estates there or chavs, nor streets filled with Islamic radicals.

It's just a more socially cohesive place with more social and civic responsibility.

Nor does it surrender itself to the EU, but takes what benefits it.

GlesgaKiss

Yeah, a ponzi scheme created by governments. And you want more of this, like Norway? It's just a bit of a shame we no longer have the resources Norway has, or the tiny population to boost the per person figures.

Who do you think sets policies to make housing affordable, to get banks lending huge amounts of money to people to spend on consumer rubbish (that's includes houses)? The government does. Labour were the worst, but they're all the same now. The funny thing is, that by attempting to 'make housing affordable' with easy credit, they actually end up achieving the opposite and destroy the whole economy in the process.

Norway is good, but as I said, they are very resource rich and have a small population, which looks good in per capita figures when the money is redistributed. But the chances are that Norway would have even better advances in living standards if everything was free.

If you think we have a free market economy, and that that's the source of the problems, you're taking a lot for granted. Our government actually centrally plans the economy. And you can't have 'quite a free market'. It's either free or it isn't.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

There is a third approach - don't beat them, join them. My biggest single client is one of the Joint CEOs of Wipro. I have also worked for TCS and CTS - and not on Indian rates either. As they become more global they hire at market rate, however the real growth and profits still reside in India.


He is when he is winning


As has been said elsewhere - Norway has two advantages - first of all only a few people with a large natural resource base. Secondly, being a small nation it is also very insular and traditional. Outsiders don't really want to go there, it's a bit like they are all one big family. A bit like the Welsh, but with reindeer instead of sheep!

Seriously, it is a great place, but the cost of living and tax are both incredibly high, and in spite of what Norway does, India and China will still rapidly grow in economic power. It is just that as the UK is larger it needs more interaction with such places.

r32

Why are we still paying out millions in aid to India and China.
Perhaps it should be the other way round?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

There is a reason for it - they have money and we are not prepared to invest.

Who owns Land Rover and Jaguar now? Tata, the same people who own TCS.

As for culture - Indian and Chinese culture goes back many thousands of years before the British. They were reading, writing and doing complex math at the time we were throwing rocks at the bears and the wolves!!

As Gandhi said, on a visit to the UK, and was asked what he thought of Western Civilisation, "I think it would be a great idea"!!

Maz

iTrader: (34)

This doesn't really add anything to the discussion either. Just what is the poster implying?

Dingdongler

Because for each £1 the UK gives in aid it probably gets £5 back in contracts especially defence related

RA Dunk

[quote=GlesgaKiss;9525298][quote=tony de wonderful;9525265]
We should have gone more like Norway years ago instead of such a free market model.
Norway is 10 times the country the UK is, it's dear as **** to live in but the quality of life the Noggies have over us is clear, I've just come back from working over there.

1 Pepsi (small)
1 Cheeseburger & Chips

£27.00

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

No way?? What kind of restaurant was that in, and what was the price in local currency?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

He is looking very Scottish at the end of that second set. Not going to stay up to see if he can get the match back!

stedee

iTrader: (4)

its just a big roundabout , alot of ppl are saying about china being the next superpower , manufacturing yes it maybe now but (its actually happening now)the average worker is going to want more and more money they might even have unions and then the cost of production will start to be the same as developed countries, same with india. you can say yes they make lots of money but if you class wealth as standard of living for the masses, these countries are still a very long way behind.

tony de wonderful

That is just a trite statement. How does making IT software have anything to do with Indias ancient culture or similarly China making toasters for export?

What China or India are doing is NOTHING to do with their supoosed discrete and ancient culture and everything to do with global capitalism and it's dynamics. IT does not not follow from Hinduism and toasters not from Toasim.

tony de wonderful

We wouldn't have such a large population if we had not let mass immigration happen after WW2.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Your statement was that the East was culturally and politically lacking. Now if ever there was a naive statement then it is this one.

India and China have a long, long culture that still drives their political, social and economic structures today. In my view that is particularly true of India, but that maybe as I know less about China on personal interaction.

I am also very confident that ancient Indian culture, and Hinduism (amongst other belief systems in India) have everything to do with their success as a nation, IT software export being simply one of them. It is through these core belief systems that Indians, typically, believe in two key factors that will eat us for breakfast. A very powerful belief in education and a very powerful commitment to work ethic. No-one forces Indians to work hard, they believe that is the right way and it is written into Hindu philosophy.

I have met Azim Premji (if you do not know who he is look him up on Google) on a number of occasions and one time we were going to meet one of the board directors of a UK bank. That board director was retiring at 55. Mr Premji just could not understand how someone with that kind of senior experience would retire so young. And when I say do not understand, he was actually quite animated on the subject. In India such an individual would just be coming into their own as a senior Industrial statesmen.

It is this 'lack' of culture and politic that will have them eat us for breakfast. It is time to wake up and smell the chai!

Turbo2

I have visited quite a few Indian factories in recent years. One company was making those CFL energy-saving lightbulbs that we all buy now. The skilled operator on each brand-new production line was earning $100 per month. That's about £760 per year for a 6 day week. There's no point anyone there complaining for a pay-rise, because there are 10's of millions of other unemployed out there and many more being born every year who would jump at that job.

Not surprisingly the last UK manufacturer of these bulbs was bought by a large Indian company, subsequently closed down and the machinery transferred to the middle-of-nowhere in India along with a handful of depressed short-term contract UK workers to get the lines up and running.

tony de wonderful

Capitalism and materalism is breaking down the Hindu caste system but you are saying Hinduism is partly responsible for economic success? It's economic success in spite of traditional cultural institutions.

I know India has a tradition of intellectualism and cultural learnings but in many ways they were rejuvinated by the British influence. Prior to the British empire sweeping though India was a decaying collection of princedoms with it's sucess well behind it many centuries ago...you had relics of arachronistic economic systems in the Hindu caste system for example. Indias modren secular state was not an Indian concept. Seculalrism, nationalism etc all comes from europe etc.

I see the Indian populace as more sohisticated and stable than China but otoh you have masses of people with a village mentality who have an unsophisticated taste for popular politics and radicalism (even in the cities). China otoh, the people are used to only authoritarianism, that requires an unquestioning DUMB cultural outlook. You can't read Shakespere or absorb art and still have slavish obedience to a one party state. Mao destroyed Chinease culture to make the people easy to govern; knowledge is power as Foucault observed.

It does worry me as I see culture as a kind of teather to prevent radicalism and dangerous politics etc. I see China as a place that could tip over over night and all hell could brake loose. India OTOH I see as much more stable and benign. Power is more decentralised in India and descemninted. Many more competing interests and a more healthy middle class.

Leslie

I would not hold my breath on that one, after the MOD has paid for Trident!

I remember India as one of the most bureaucratic countries going. Indians have always been good businessmen though.

Les

Dingdongler

Nobody would argue that immigration has been unchecked in the last 20 years or so. However what would have been the outlook for the UK without immigration after WW2? Immigrants were encouraged to come here for a reason. Only somebody with a crystal ball can say with any certainty whether the UK may have actually been much worse off without that post WW2 immigration.