Trout

iTrader: (1)

You indicate some insight but you seem to ignore some of the core culturally embedded Hindu* philosophies of study, livelihood, wealth and discipline. The same philosophies that drive literally hundreds of thousands of quality graduates annually. The creation of a financially active 'middle class' in excess of 300m people.

Study and hard work are ingrained in the Indian middle class.

The big challenge of India is the separation of India as we know it and Bharat, the traditional village based agroconomy that could get left behind. A country of over a million farms.

India today is a fusion of thousands of years of cultures up to and including the British. But the core values are at the heart of driving the success emerging today.


* As for the caste system. Was that adopted from Hinduism, or did Hinduism adopt the caste system? I suspect the latter!

tony de wonderful

Well we would probably have less GDP but a lower population (so maybe the same GDP per person).

BUt we'd be less crowed and have less social tensions.

Unfortunately we are obsessed with growing the economy in a ponzi type way with immigtation. We love it when the stock market goes up, and house prices increase. The gov gets more tax also etc.

But who benefits though? Anser is the existing economic elites not averge people.

tony de wonderful

Sure but India has had those values for centuries but has only recently 'emerged' from a traditional economy. What changed to allow India to pull itself up by its bootstraps?

The reason is far more to do with the dynamics of globalisation and the needs of Global Capitalism than India itself.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Sure - globalisation makes it possible and the core values of hard work, discipline, study have made it possible for India to take advantage of it. They are churning out more quality graduates than pretty much any other country in the world.

Whatever the cause (and clearly we are not going to agree) the effect is the same. Economic power is moving to India and China and we are not going to get a look in.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Another way of looking at it is to take an example from the IT industry. Figures are from 2002.

In that year there were around 600,000 IT professionals in India. There were also 600,000 IT professionals in China.

In India around 97% of the IT work was exported. Around 80% of the World's IT companies at CMMi Level 5 (highest quality standard for IT development process) were in India.

There were none in China. Only around 3% of the IT work was exported. China was investing its IT effort internally, but also struggled to export it due to quality issues.

IT was particularly suited to the Indian mindset and also fit with the huge number of engineering graduates India was churning out.

So Western demand and Globalisation created the market, and the core Indian disciplines created the supply.


Or a simpler way of looking at it - they work hard and they think most Westerners are lazy and workshy

SJ_Skyline

Trout,

I agree with your arguement but the CMMI deserves a little more context: A company sets it's own scope by which the maturity of its processes are measured thus with a sufficiently narrow scope anybody can acheive a CMMI maturity rating of 5.

I would say that there are specific elements of IT that are suited to India: typically those that require technical expertise and a repetitive approach (hence the suitability to CMMI). There are other areas where they are behind other countries such as their approach systems safety (no, this is NOT health and safety - consider the safety controls required for software that controls a guided missile). The Philipines are also a growth area for IT outsourcing: different culture, different accents, different areas of excellene.

Totally agree: This is beacuse (from my experience) development work being outsourced requires a higher level of specification and management from the onshore side to get the result you are looking for.

tony de wonderful

That is an influence from the caste system I guess...manual work is to be distained. Status comes from a desk job etc.

tony de wonderful

On the contary manual work is distained as I mentioned.

Leslie

When has that ever been different?

Les

Leslie

Would not argue with that.

Les

tony de wonderful

Protestantism celebrated hard manual work, farming etc. It's a far more 'disciplined' religious movement than anything from the East.

The German romanticts also celebrated an agrarian existance.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

CMMi 'can' be a narrow tool and some organisations have used it in that narrow sense. The best have CMMi compliance across all development and all centres. MUCH harder to achieve and reflects the merits of their culture.

I also think that your comment in Indian capability is a decade out of date, at least for the tier one and tier two organisations. The complex problems I see being solved by my Indian clients are far beyond the write a spec and get some code written type problems.

And perhaps, more worryingly from the Western perspective, these complex problems are being outsourced as the local talent do not have either the intellectual horsepower or the precision of the Indian colleagues to solve these problems.

Intellectual capability is much more on a par, with Indian discipline and commitment sometimes giving an edge.

Where Indian firms are much weaker, it is establishing quality, sustainable, trusted relationships with their key clients.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I think your earlier 'insight' is undermined by your one dimensional understanding, or should I say mis-understanding of Indian culture.

And for reference it is spelled 'disdain'.

tony de wonderful

Is it? This is a country where people display pens in the shirt pockets to denote status.

OTOH there have been populist movements which edify the more simplistic, village existance. Ghandi somewhat came from that POV.

I would never characterise India as particularry culturally discplined, not like Germanic or Anglo cultures. Have you see the driving in Delhi?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

As I said earlier we are clearly never going to agree.

Back to my earlier statement - rather than condemn or criticise a much better strategy is to join the movement. It has certainly been hugely rewarding for myself and my business. My total lack of understanding () of how India works has driven a massive growth in revenues for my business over the past 18 months

Dingdongler

1) I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about

2) You can't spell

3) Have you ever been to India?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Just to add some fuel to the fire...

...the biggest single manufacturer in the UK now is Tata Group!!!

andythejock01wrx

Tata British industry! (Sorry, couldn't resist!),

tony de wonderful

1) So?

2) So?

3) Yes.

tony de wonderful

I'm just offereing an alternative to the fashionable narrative you subscribe to; that India and China are ancient and advanced cultures only now 'emerging' as it were and asserting 'themselves'. I see global Capitalism at work, not Indian or Chinese culture. If anything global capitalism is re-moulding Indian or Chinese culture in it's own image, eroding national cultures, levelling the market. Capital is international, it is retarded to see it in national terms.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

The alternative you offered was that India and China are 'culturally and politically lacking'.

If you choose to 'interpret' my comments that capital is national and I am a retard then I am happy that it suits your trolling. I am happy sitting here repatriating a nice chunk of that capital back to the UK from India

tony de wonderful

It's un-PC to say that but true in a sense. Chinas sophisticated cultural and intellectualism is way in it's past, same with India but to a much lesser extent. You can't sustain an authoritarian political model in the face of free thinking and the criticism that engenders. It's why Mao purged intellectuals and artists, leaving dumb masses.

China and India still see a higher purpose in Capitalism and the bounty of consumemrism. We are way past that in the West, much more mature and skeptical.

Leslie

Surely their major advantage at the moment is very cheap labour. When that changes as it will eventually, their economy will also slow down.

Les

Dingdongler

I have never been to China and don't know that much about Chinese culture to be honest so won't comment. In terms of India though you'll find that as well as ancient culture its modern/pop culture is just as vibrant. You only have to look at things like the influence of Bollywood, Indian music, art, food and fashion to see that. It is pop culture granted but it has a worldwide influence.

Dingdongler

Actually Les India has already passed the point of cheap labour (by international standards)

Turbo2

I think we're in for a long wait Les. Their population now matches China's (about 1.3 billion) and they are breeding like rabbits. There just aren't enough jobs to go round yet, so no pressure to put wages up for the labourers. Sure the bosses will coin it in, but the rest of them will work for peanuts for a long-time to come. Sadly it's a fact of life in capitalist society. Even a small country like ours has tried to "outsource" jobs to cheaper labour areas within our own restrictive borders (call centres etc.).

We're just going to have to learn to live with it. I'd rather work with democratic India than Communist China though, so I guess we should support India for that. I'd be happy to see China cut-off from the rest of the world. Sustained economic decline is the only way that I can see their people turning against their rulers.

Turbo2

Is 760 quid per year for skilled labour not cheap by international standards anymore?

Leslie

Yes I think that is fair comment.

Les

Dingdongler

That's an 'average' wage and comes from a country that is very poor at collecting data, so the stats themselves cannot be relied upon. Its all very well to google a figure and spout some nonsense but I take it you have never been there or do business there?

I have business links with the country and can tell you there are far cheaper places to manufacture in the world than India

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Totally agree - wages and prices are rising very quickly in India. Unskilled labour is still very plentiful and low cost; skilled labour costs are rising extremely quickly.

An IT programmer or business process analyst that was £4-6,000 a year eight years ago is now £12-20,000 if not more now.