England is "Junior" Partner to India!
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Study and hard work are ingrained in the Indian middle class.
The big challenge of India is the separation of India as we know it and Bharat, the traditional village based agroconomy that could get left behind. A country of over a million farms.
India today is a fusion of thousands of years of cultures up to and including the British. But the core values are at the heart of driving the success emerging today.
* As for the caste system. Was that adopted from Hinduism, or did Hinduism adopt the caste system? I suspect the latter!
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Nobody would argue that immigration has been unchecked in the last 20 years or so. However what would have been the outlook for the UK without immigration after WW2? Immigrants were encouraged to come here for a reason. Only somebody with a crystal ball can say with any certainty whether the UK may have actually been much worse off without that post WW2 immigration.
BUt we'd be less crowed and have less social tensions.
Unfortunately we are obsessed with growing the economy in a ponzi type way with immigtation. We love it when the stock market goes up, and house prices increase. The gov gets more tax also etc.
But who benefits though? Anser is the existing economic elites not averge people.
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You indicate some insight but you seem to ignore some of the core culturally embedded Hindu* philosophies of study, livelihood, wealth and discipline. The same philosophies that drive literally hundreds of thousands of quality graduates annually. The creation of a financially active 'middle class' in excess of 300m people.
Study and hard work are ingrained in the Indian middle class.
The big challenge of India is the separation of India as we know it and Bharat, the traditional village based agroconomy that could get left behind. A country of over a million farms.
India today is a fusion of thousands of years of cultures up to and including the British. But the core values are at the heart of driving the success emerging today.
* As for the caste system. Was that adopted from Hinduism, or did Hinduism adopt the caste system? I suspect the latter!
Study and hard work are ingrained in the Indian middle class.
The big challenge of India is the separation of India as we know it and Bharat, the traditional village based agroconomy that could get left behind. A country of over a million farms.
India today is a fusion of thousands of years of cultures up to and including the British. But the core values are at the heart of driving the success emerging today.
* As for the caste system. Was that adopted from Hinduism, or did Hinduism adopt the caste system? I suspect the latter!
The reason is far more to do with the dynamics of globalisation and the needs of Global Capitalism than India itself.
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Sure - globalisation makes it possible and the core values of hard work, discipline, study have made it possible for India to take advantage of it. They are churning out more quality graduates than pretty much any other country in the world.
Whatever the cause (and clearly we are not going to agree) the effect is the same. Economic power is moving to India and China and we are not going to get a look in.
Whatever the cause (and clearly we are not going to agree) the effect is the same. Economic power is moving to India and China and we are not going to get a look in.
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Another way of looking at it is to take an example from the IT industry. Figures are from 2002.
In that year there were around 600,000 IT professionals in India. There were also 600,000 IT professionals in China.
In India around 97% of the IT work was exported. Around 80% of the World's IT companies at CMMi Level 5 (highest quality standard for IT development process) were in India.
There were none in China. Only around 3% of the IT work was exported. China was investing its IT effort internally, but also struggled to export it due to quality issues.
IT was particularly suited to the Indian mindset and also fit with the huge number of engineering graduates India was churning out.
So Western demand and Globalisation created the market, and the core Indian disciplines created the supply.
Or a simpler way of looking at it - they work hard and they think most Westerners are lazy and workshy
In that year there were around 600,000 IT professionals in India. There were also 600,000 IT professionals in China.
In India around 97% of the IT work was exported. Around 80% of the World's IT companies at CMMi Level 5 (highest quality standard for IT development process) were in India.
There were none in China. Only around 3% of the IT work was exported. China was investing its IT effort internally, but also struggled to export it due to quality issues.
IT was particularly suited to the Indian mindset and also fit with the huge number of engineering graduates India was churning out.
So Western demand and Globalisation created the market, and the core Indian disciplines created the supply.
Or a simpler way of looking at it - they work hard and they think most Westerners are lazy and workshy
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Last edited by Trout; 03 August 2010 at 09:22 AM.
#66
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Trout,
I agree with your arguement but the CMMI deserves a little more context: A company sets it's own scope by which the maturity of its processes are measured thus with a sufficiently narrow scope anybody can acheive a CMMI maturity rating of 5.
I would say that there are specific elements of IT that are suited to India: typically those that require technical expertise and a repetitive approach (hence the suitability to CMMI). There are other areas where they are behind other countries such as their approach systems safety (no, this is NOT health and safety - consider the safety controls required for software that controls a guided missile). The Philipines are also a growth area for IT outsourcing: different culture, different accents, different areas of excellene.
Totally agree: This is beacuse (from my experience) development work being outsourced requires a higher level of specification and management from the onshore side to get the result you are looking for.
I agree with your arguement but the CMMI deserves a little more context: A company sets it's own scope by which the maturity of its processes are measured thus with a sufficiently narrow scope anybody can acheive a CMMI maturity rating of 5.
I would say that there are specific elements of IT that are suited to India: typically those that require technical expertise and a repetitive approach (hence the suitability to CMMI). There are other areas where they are behind other countries such as their approach systems safety (no, this is NOT health and safety - consider the safety controls required for software that controls a guided missile). The Philipines are also a growth area for IT outsourcing: different culture, different accents, different areas of excellene.
Or a simpler way of looking at it - they work hard and they think most Westerners are lazy and workshy
#67
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#70
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Another way of looking at it is to take an example from the IT industry. Figures are from 2002.
In that year there were around 600,000 IT professionals in India. There were also 600,000 IT professionals in China.
In India around 97% of the IT work was exported. Around 80% of the World's IT companies at CMMi Level 5 (highest quality standard for IT development process) were in India.
There were none in China. Only around 3% of the IT work was exported. China was investing its IT effort internally, but also struggled to export it due to quality issues.
IT was particularly suited to the Indian mindset and also fit with the huge number of engineering graduates India was churning out.
So Western demand and Globalisation created the market, and the core Indian disciplines created the supply.
Or a simpler way of looking at it - they work hard and they think most Westerners are lazy and workshy![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
In that year there were around 600,000 IT professionals in India. There were also 600,000 IT professionals in China.
In India around 97% of the IT work was exported. Around 80% of the World's IT companies at CMMi Level 5 (highest quality standard for IT development process) were in India.
There were none in China. Only around 3% of the IT work was exported. China was investing its IT effort internally, but also struggled to export it due to quality issues.
IT was particularly suited to the Indian mindset and also fit with the huge number of engineering graduates India was churning out.
So Western demand and Globalisation created the market, and the core Indian disciplines created the supply.
Or a simpler way of looking at it - they work hard and they think most Westerners are lazy and workshy
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Les
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Trout,
I agree with your arguement but the CMMI deserves a little more context: A company sets it's own scope by which the maturity of its processes are measured thus with a sufficiently narrow scope anybody can acheive a CMMI maturity rating of 5.
I would say that there are specific elements of IT that are suited to India: typically those that require technical expertise and a repetitive approach (hence the suitability to CMMI). There are other areas where they are behind other countries such as their approach systems safety (no, this is NOT health and safety - consider the safety controls required for software that controls a guided missile). The Philipines are also a growth area for IT outsourcing: different culture, different accents, different areas of excellene.
Totally agree: This is beacuse (from my experience) development work being outsourced requires a higher level of specification and management from the onshore side to get the result you are looking for.
I agree with your arguement but the CMMI deserves a little more context: A company sets it's own scope by which the maturity of its processes are measured thus with a sufficiently narrow scope anybody can acheive a CMMI maturity rating of 5.
I would say that there are specific elements of IT that are suited to India: typically those that require technical expertise and a repetitive approach (hence the suitability to CMMI). There are other areas where they are behind other countries such as their approach systems safety (no, this is NOT health and safety - consider the safety controls required for software that controls a guided missile). The Philipines are also a growth area for IT outsourcing: different culture, different accents, different areas of excellene.
Totally agree: This is beacuse (from my experience) development work being outsourced requires a higher level of specification and management from the onshore side to get the result you are looking for.
I also think that your comment in Indian capability is a decade out of date, at least for the tier one and tier two organisations. The complex problems I see being solved by my Indian clients are far beyond the write a spec and get some code written type problems.
And perhaps, more worryingly from the Western perspective, these complex problems are being outsourced as the local talent do not have either the intellectual horsepower or the precision of the Indian colleagues to solve these problems.
Intellectual capability is much more on a par, with Indian discipline and commitment sometimes giving an edge.
Where Indian firms are much weaker, it is establishing quality, sustainable, trusted relationships with their key clients.
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OTOH there have been populist movements which edify the more simplistic, village existance. Ghandi somewhat came from that POV.
I would never characterise India as particularry culturally discplined, not like Germanic or Anglo cultures. Have you see the driving in Delhi?
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As I said earlier we are clearly never going to agree.
Back to my earlier statement - rather than condemn or criticise a much better strategy is to join the movement. It has certainly been hugely rewarding for myself and my business. My total lack of understanding (
) of how India works has driven a massive growth in revenues for my business over the past 18 months
Back to my earlier statement - rather than condemn or criticise a much better strategy is to join the movement. It has certainly been hugely rewarding for myself and my business. My total lack of understanding (
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
#76
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2) You can't spell
3) Have you ever been to India?
#80
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As I said earlier we are clearly never going to agree.
Back to my earlier statement - rather than condemn or criticise a much better strategy is to join the movement. It has certainly been hugely rewarding for myself and my business. My total lack of understanding (
) of how India works has driven a massive growth in revenues for my business over the past 18 months ![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Back to my earlier statement - rather than condemn or criticise a much better strategy is to join the movement. It has certainly been hugely rewarding for myself and my business. My total lack of understanding (
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
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The alternative you offered was that India and China are 'culturally and politically lacking'.
If you choose to 'interpret' my comments that capital is national and I am a retard then I am happy that it suits your trolling. I am happy sitting here repatriating a nice chunk of that capital back to the UK from India
If you choose to 'interpret' my comments that capital is national and I am a retard then I am happy that it suits your trolling. I am happy sitting here repatriating a nice chunk of that capital back to the UK from India
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#82
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China and India still see a higher purpose in Capitalism and the bounty of consumemrism. We are way past that in the West, much more mature and skeptical.
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It's un-PC to say that but true in a sense. Chinas sophisticated cultural and intellectualism is way in it's past, same with India but to a much lesser extent. You can't sustain an authoritarian political model in the face of free thinking and the criticism that engenders. It's why Mao purged intellectuals and artists, leaving dumb masses.
China and India still see a higher purpose in Capitalism and the bounty of consumemrism. We are way past that in the West, much more mature and skeptical.
China and India still see a higher purpose in Capitalism and the bounty of consumemrism. We are way past that in the West, much more mature and skeptical.
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We're just going to have to learn to live with it. I'd rather work with democratic India than Communist China though, so I guess we should support India for that. I'd be happy to see China cut-off from the rest of the world. Sustained economic decline is the only way that I can see their people turning against their rulers.
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I think we're in for a long wait Les. Their population now matches China's (about 1.3 billion) and they are breeding like rabbits. There just aren't enough jobs to go round yet, so no pressure to put wages up for the labourers. Sure the bosses will coin it in, but the rest of them will work for peanuts for a long-time to come. Sadly it's a fact of life in capitalist society. Even a small country like ours has tried to "outsource" jobs to cheaper labour areas within our own restrictive borders (call centres etc.).
We're just going to have to learn to live with it. I'd rather work with democratic India than Communist China though, so I guess we should support India for that. I'd be happy to see China cut-off from the rest of the world. Sustained economic decline is the only way that I can see their people turning against their rulers.
We're just going to have to learn to live with it. I'd rather work with democratic India than Communist China though, so I guess we should support India for that. I'd be happy to see China cut-off from the rest of the world. Sustained economic decline is the only way that I can see their people turning against their rulers.
Les
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I have business links with the country and can tell you there are far cheaper places to manufacture in the world than India
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Totally agree - wages and prices are rising very quickly in India. Unskilled labour is still very plentiful and low cost; skilled labour costs are rising extremely quickly.
An IT programmer or business process analyst that was £4-6,000 a year eight years ago is now £12-20,000 if not more now.
An IT programmer or business process analyst that was £4-6,000 a year eight years ago is now £12-20,000 if not more now.