Neanderthal

iTrader: (6)

So how do you explain what Schumacher tried to do to Villeneuve a couple of years later then?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

What has that got to do with Adelaide 1994?

As you ask it was complately deliberate, but then I never said he was perfect. As it happens Villeneive was never going to make the corner anyway, but that is a whole different story.

At least it wasn't pre-meditated unlike Senna's move on Prost at Japan 1990, then again Senna isn't German so that's OK

Turbo2

Just corrected this for you.

Neanderthal

iTrader: (6)

I was just wondering if you were going to try and defend him on everything.

Personally, I was really looking forward to having Schumacher back in F1 but it's been a completely underwhelming return. Yes the car isn't great but Nico has performed a lot better in it that Schumacher has.
I hope that next year the FIA readdress the stupid rule of no 'in season' testing because I think it's robbing us of some decent races this season. Lets be honest, if Redbull hadn't been unreliable/made mistakes they'd have had this season sown up by now, just as Jenson did last year.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No, not blind to his faults at all, but Adeliade 1994 is not what everyone perceives it to be.

I will say he has given me a lot of pleasure with some amazing races, but like many geniuses is flawed ... very like Senna in fact.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

In a car which started off way inferior to the Mclaren. I think part of the problem is that Michael is a Kraut, if he was a British driver I don't think he would be copping all this flak. Bear in mind when he joined Ferrari from Benetton, Ferrari were completely in the wilderness. Schumacher's input and teamwork with the engineers put Ferrari back on the map. To be the best you have to be ruthless and take risks. To say he put Barrichello's life in danger is just sensationalising. These cars will cope with a shunt like that without any problem.
He's not without flaws admittedly but as a person he's not too bad
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/01...ief/index.html

Graham Hill once said 'you get a nicer class of driver at the back of the grid'.
However niceness doesn't win races.

scooby L

Adelaide looked more like bumper cars than F1...
The fact that if Michael was still driving a fully fit car, would he have cut off Hill's dive so brutally? we will never known...

Hill was an idiot I agree, but not for the reason you quoted

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

I was looking forward to his return too. What a great story it would have been to have the old dog teaching the pups some new tricks.
Unfortunately he hasn't performed as well as he might (Schuey) even allowing for a slightly sub-standard car, and what's worse he's resorted to showing the pups a few of his old tricks.

The worst bit is that Schumacher doesn't need to stoop to using gutter level tactics by playing dangerous games, he's far too talented a driver for that.

CAT2

iTrader: (3)

I'd like to hear how Schuey parking his car at the Rascass in Monaco wasn't cold, cynical, calculated cheating.......F1 fan care to defend him on this one too?

For me he's a very fast driver who is just way too prepared to win at any cost.


And read my first post in this thread, I'm not (wasn't) anti-Schuey.......

Leslie

In the first place it is nothing to do with his nationality. A Brit behaving like that would get just as much criticism for unsporting and dangerous behaviour which is his standard method.

What sort of speed would you say they were doing when he pushed Barrichello towards that wall? How would you feel if you were driving and he did that to you? Barrichello got himself into a position to pass by his driving skill. Are you saying it is part of the sport to deliberately try to make another driver crash into a wall? Is that how you want to see F1 as standard practice?

If Barrichllo had hit that wall if it was longer are you saying it could be certain that he would suffer no injury? Is that the right way to go racing? When I was racing anyone who behaved like that would have got a right sorting out after the race and deservedly so.

This is not stock car racing. Winning is supposed to be a combination of a good car and skilfull driving as well as good teamwork. Behaviour like that of your hero should be heavily punished even to the extent of removing his licence. There is no way that risking injury to another driver in order to win can be justified.

Les

Devildog

So let me get this straight. You are basing your evidence that Schumacher's move on Hill was not deliberate on the views of one Jounalist who was there at the time, rather than the views and opinions of many others who were there at the time, and have analysed the video evidence subsequently? Remember too, that at that time Schumacher had not shown his true "win at all costs" colours.

Then you have the Villeneuve issue and lets not forget "parking his car" in Monaco. And now you have the act of a desperate man who tries to drive another competitor into a pit wall. This is not a race for the lead, this is a fight over 10th place.

I'm not saying that others have not been guilty, but Schumacher has a history. It's his MO. And he'll be remembered for it.

Its interesting how he's been, well, a bit crap this year. Unable to test, with a team not geared 100% to him, and not the best car he's, well, proving to be a bit crap. Rosberg easily having the measure of him in equal machinery. Just as Barichello and Massa did at Ferrari when the team allowed them too.

Eddie Irvine ihas gone on record to say that Schumacher was useless at set up. 1000s of miles of testing can of course overcome that. Trial and error to see what works. But that's no use to him this year.

He may have won 7 world championships, but he's had plenty of help along the way. IMO, Schumacher's achievements have as much to do with the car/team/orders/tactics as they do with his raw talent,

Where he's been exceptional, has been in engineering his situation in a a given team, to extract the absolute maximum from the team, the car, himself.

But now that he can't do that, he's floundering and resorting to type.

"Cheating" may have been acceptable at Benetton/Renault (as the facts prove) and Ferrari (again as the facts prove) but I doubt that Mercedes Benz will want that association with their global brand.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

With respect Les, the 'behaviour' as you call it is standard fare not just in Formula one but a lot of sports. It is part and parcel of racing, some call it cheating some call it being ruthless. Your perception of racing as it should be is perhaps wishful thinking. There are countless examples over the years where other drivers have at times done something or drove in a certain way to get the job done. We might not like it and it may not be 'sporting' but it gets the job done. I'm not saying Michael has had an entirely blameless career, not by any stretch of the imagination. However he did what he had to win. His comeback was a big mistake, at his age he cannot possibly hope to compete with younger, fitter and hungrier drivers.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Nope, I just watch the footage and make up my own mind. I used the journalist's piece as it is well written and concise. BTW the ONLY journalists and media who blame Schamcher 100% for Adelaide 94 are British. Wonder why that is?

As for the rest of your rant. you don't like him. We get it. Hence not much point debating. Although did laugh at your mention of Irvine ... like when has anything Eddie said not been taken with a pinch of salt.

P.S. He won at least two championships in not the best car... arguably 4. More luck I guess.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No idea on the Rascasse incident. Never did fully understand it. Anyway if it had stopped Alonso getting pole fair enough as there is a nasty little man.

Markus

What cliche to use? There are so many to pick from.

We all know that he'll try anything to win, to beat down his competitors. I believe most, if not all of his infamous little incidents have been mentioned on this thread. I agree it's his MO. If you can't win/beat them outright, then bend the rules/outright cheat to get them.

There's being an aggressive driver, then there is being a menace and a true danger, and that is what we saw on Sunday. He'd have been the same arrogant **** if Rubens had gone in the wall and been seriously injured. He'd have still insisted he wasn't doing anything wrong, as per usual.

I fully expect that no matter what car he is in, he'd be pulling the same tricks. If he were in a red bull he'd be taking out Lewis and Jenson.

One can of course say Senna was a menace, and it's very true, he was, as one particular incident showed, hmm, I seem to recall someone else pulling a similar move to guarantee a victory, wonder where they learnt that from.

I would have liked to have seen him black flagged, which would be nothing new to him, he's had one before, and given a two race ban.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I knew you'd be along sooner or later. Have you any idea how sad and pathetic you sound? No change there then LOL!

I have picked your last point up as I wonder if you know why he was black flagged? For passing on the parade lap, a rule broken every week by drivers before and after that event and one since consigned to the bin. If you knew anything about the internal machinations of F1 in 1994 you would know why he was black flagged and why he was given a 2 race ban and later why he was disqulaified from wining the Belgian GP. Do some research on Senna's death, Ecclestone's manipulation of the championship in order to 'save' F1 after the loss of its greatest driver, Benetton's suspected infringements and the whole sorry behind the scenes legal mess that ensued there..... maybe then you can make a more informed and sensible comment... until then why not just go back to posting about your beloved Apple products.... something you actually know something about!!

urban

iTrader: (1)

I'm sorry, but what a load of old shyte

Too old and desperate - for what?

No self respect - he's old school FFS

The car to be fair is not average
However - I bet that next year will be a whole different matter.

don't forget - when he went to Ferrari all those years ago that was probably an "average" car and look how that turned out.

I'm not defending his action on Sunday - it was 100% wrong.
And a 10 place grid penalty is well deserved for that, but they should have fined him also.

SimonD

You have to be kidding!
A shunt like what? Locking wheels at that speed would send one of the cars flying. Which particular landing points would have been "no problem"? What about flying debris? What if someone had been exiting the pits?

I'm no Michael fan and I agree that Adelaide '94 was as much Damon's fault but his first instinct in these scenarios is worrying at best............

Devildog

I was actually referring to the comments of other drivers, but hey, what do they know ..lol..

In hindsight Hill is at fault too, for not waiting, but then its racing, you have to take opportunities as they arise.

It wasn't a rant - it was an observation of events. If you were not so fast to make assumptions you might have realised that. At least Irvine is known for saying it like it is. So, do you dispute the point that set up wasn't Schumacher's forte? That he clearly coped much better with lots and lots of testing? That his team mates could be faster than him when they were allowed to be?

Again, you are making assumptions. I never said he was lucky. There is a reason he won championships in not the best car - his ability to focus everything behind him. To build a team around him. to maximise the advantage.

No, I don't like him. Nothing to do with nationality. Nothnoig to do with his arrogance. What I don't like is the fact that he is prepared to blatantly cheat to gain advantage. Being hard, difficult, even arrogant is one thing. Having to resort to cheating when all else fails is another. It's pathetic, and it undermines all that is good about him.

He's good, no question. But is he any better in terms of raw talent than many others who haven't won 7 championships (or even any)? I'm not so sure.

He's been beaten like for like by teammates over the years, team mates who were just faster on the day, and none of whom have won championships.

The Senna comparison is interesting, but I believe different. Schumacher doesn't appear to care who he takes off, or tries to take off. The Senna/Prost relationship was personal. Doesn't make it right, but doesn't excuse Schumacher's tactics either.

And Senna was sublime in a racing car. When the cars were unquestionably harder to drive and far more dangerous. Schumacher has had moments of brilliance, but when the car is not set up 100% to his liking, he's been distinctly average too. Much like Button in many respects.

It used to be said that Schumacher could drive around a problem. Clearly he's forgotton how to do that this year.

ps -no silly smilies from me

scooby L

Not sure what the rules would have been if someone was exiting the pit lane at that point?

Probably Rubens would have been penalized for crossing the white line, even though it was Michael who actually pushed him there..

I'm all for driving defensively and well done to MS for being such a wide road block... but these erratic coarse changes to deter overtaking when he's obviously out gunned in a straight line really seam OTT.

When he did it to Massa in Canada, he gave him no room to pass up the inside, fair enough, but then (once he's committed Massa to taking the outside) he dives back to the racing line even though Massa had a slight overlap, and off his front wing as a result.. no penalty as per usual, because MS is a master at knowing what he can get away with, but it does not make it good or sportsmanlike.

scooby L

Not sure what the rules would have been if someone was exiting the pit lane at that point?

Probably Rubens would have been penalized for crossing the white line, even though it was Michael who actually pushed him there..

I'm all for driving defensively and well done to MS for being such a wide road block... but these erratic coarse changes to deter overtaking when he's obviously out gunned in a straight line really seam OTT.

When he did it to Massa in Canada, he gave him no room to pass up the inside, fair enough, but then (once he'd committed Massa to taking the outside line) he dives back to the racing line even though Massa had a slight overlap, and takes off Massa's front wing as a result.. no penalty (as per usual), because MS is a master at knowing what he can get away with, but it does not make it right or remotely sportsmanlike.

if Rubens had opted for the outside in Hungary, we'd have seen MS carry out the same sweeping move as he did on Massa... Relying on the "if you're behind , it's your resposibility to avoid a collision"

cster

And what would that be F1 fan - his Modus Operandi ?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Which surely makes his antics all the more questionable???

Not that I have a problem with Schumacher or Senna driving hard and pushing the limits of acceptability. It's why they have 10 championships between them - they are winners!

LOL - that is the best laugh I've had in ages.

If he is so crap at driving a poor car how come he was miles in front of Barrichello in 2005 when the Ferrari was a dog. He still came 3rd in the championship that year. Oh and how about coming second in a car with only 5th gear. Like Button FFS LOL!!!!

urban

iTrader: (1)

Chalk and cheese

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Luck/testing/cheating/favouritism etc alone don't garner seven championships. He came close on ocassions when he didn't win too, infact he could have been in to double figures.

Devildog

The alternate view is that Schumacher cheats because he knows he won't get hurt, which makes it even more pre meditated and hence worse.

Just like your discussions with Jack, you tend to misinterpret what is posted

This is always going to be difficult given that your light emits form Schumachers ****

Button needs the car set up 100% to his liking otherwise he can't perform to his best. That was the only comparison I was making. You are correct in that they are very different in all other respects. For one, Button isn't a cheating *******

The Ferrari he took to second with a knackered gearbox was set up exactly how he liked it, after extensive testing.

The 2005 Ferrari may have been a "dog" at he start of the year (he was lapped in the opening race IIRC) but was a lot better as the year went on. He outqualified Barrichello 12-7 in 2005. That's less than 3 races away from a 50:50 result, and practically his worse showing against him year on year. Let's look at that again - in the car you describe as a dog, he had his 2nd worst qualifying record against his teammate. Race results against Barrichello don't count given the team orders situation that have alway existed.

My only reference to his being crap were my comments about his performance in this year's car - his being a "bit crap". He can't get anywhere this year in a car not built around him and that he can't test. A car that's not set up 100% for him, and a car that Ross Brawn publicly states Michael is struggling to get the set up right, to get the tyres working. He's been soundly beaten by his team mate (when his team mate has 4 wheels on his car). He's been beaten by rookies (who've also had zero testing) in what should be inferior cars.

If he was as good as you say, he should be performing better than he is. there is no question that he has had some stunning drives, but he's no God, and he's no better than many others.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Can't get more pre-meditated than Senna vs Prost - check your facts!!! Or is that more of your so called mis-interpretation on my part. Senna didnt even have enough fuel on board for a stint LOL!

Not half as difficult as it is with you who has obviously been watching a different driver and not too closely as we will see later

And for most of his careerr Schumacher didn't so it a was a crap comparison

Well firstly it was a Benetton (see what I mean from earlier) and secondly you really think that driving an F1 car to second place with just one gear out of seven is no achievement or indictaor of the man's ability to drive round a problem ... you are deluded!!!

The 2005 Ferrari was no better at the end of the year than the start and went well only at Imola and Hungray. As for not comparing race results.... did the team orders you seem to know so much about tell Rubens to drive 4places and 50s behind his team mate race after race ??? No they didn't did they??? Face it, you would never admit he was a great driver no matter what evidence was presented!!

After 3 years out he does seem to be struggling although his pace has been roughly the same as Rosberg's for the last few races. Is it such a surprise that not being able to test hampers him after 3 years away from a sport where tiny difference matter a lot? Is the car really that much better than these 'inferior' cars? I don't know the answers, but you seem to of course.

If you say so. Maybe he is too old now, maybe 3 years was too long to be out. Or maybe next year he will be back to his old self. None of which detracts from his past, good and bad.

I know what I have seen, if you choose not to see it then fair enough. I consider myself lucky to have seen Schumacher's career and that of Senna, Prost and Mansell.... they will be who I rememeber whereas I doubt I shall bother recalling too much about Button, Damon or that perennial underachiever Coulthard in my dotage.

Xx-IAN-xX

[quote=f1_fan;9528686] Have you any idea how sad and pathetic you sound? No change there then LOL!

quote]

.
Nope that would be you. You say you are a big fan of the sport . But defend the most dangerous man on the track. Its not the first time he's put someones life at risk. Sooner or later this idiot will kill someone.

computerangel

The Benetton B194 had six gears.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Bollocks!!! So it did LOL! Shot myself in the foot there

I was including reverse OK... I wasn't !!