Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

EFA

Good job people like Richard Branson were

jonc

Those bonuses generate huge amount of tax revenue for the government as they are subject to higher rate tax band, hence, why the government haven't "banned" them and they never will.

The "poor" also steal and are money grabbing barstewards (not all!!). I work hard and get paid well to provide for my family, however, there are those who defraud the benefit system and claim massive amounts and quite a few will have more disposable income than myself and the average hard working tax paying people.

David Lock

I feel sorry for poor old Bob Crow

"As of 2009, Bob Crow's basic salary at RMT was Ł94,747; a 12% increase from the previous year despite the ongoing recession. His entire pay package with bonuses and pensions was Ł133,183; on top of this he claimed Ł9,989 in expenses and Ł2,376 in travel costs, taking his total income to Ł145,548" - Wiki


dl

GlesgaKiss

I hope the unions all get what they want. It will ultimately make them worse off anyway.

What a tw*t Bob Crowe is. Typifies public sector thinking really. The emergency/frontline services do a great job, but there are so many leeches in the rest of it desperate to get all they can for as little as they can do (management for management, etc, etc) - and unlike the rest of the population the market can't stop them. Only corrupt politicians can.

It's clear to see what Labour were trying to achieve: Employ as many people as they could in a way that meant their livelihoods were dependant upon Labour remaining in power. A vision of total political self-interest and greed no different to that present in the free capitalism they claim is the root of all evil.

Martin2005

'the poor steal'...

Dear lord what the hell are you on?

Thieves steal, and they come from all sorts of backgrounds.

Why can't we have a friggin thread on here without the poor or immigrants being scapegoated for all our ills?

Plus you can be damned sure the 'average hard working tax payer' has been hit far harder by bankers recently than by the 'thieving poor'

Petem95

I'm interested to know as well Daryl. Do they have a genuine alternate suggestion, or are the Unions just totally clueless of the reality of the financial situation this country is in, and just desperate for some strike action?..

This isnt about Tories dumbass, its about 12 years of Labour mismanagement digging the country deeper into debt with their head-in-the-sand totally unsustainable economics.

Daryl

There isn't a simple answer to this, because it depends what you mean by living within our means and how bad the financial situation really is. I am fully aware that the alternative to the government's approach suggested by the unions isn't the panacea for the current situation and that the sensible solution lies somewhere in between.

There is bloat in the public sector and cuts could be made in some areas, particularly in senior management. However, the savings would be relatively small and when the government talk about 25-40% cuts, while protecting the frontline, they are deluded. I am in a frontline job, but I can't do it properly without backroom support. In fact, a lot of it has already been removed, with an obvious impact on the service provided.

To make things simple, I have posted a link below, so that you can read the view of the Public & Commercial Services Union and the alternatives that they suggest. You might not agree with it, but I think it proves that the unions' position hasn't come about just because they want a fight with the government.

http://www.pcs.org.uk/altdoc

GlesgaKiss

They don't have an alternative, they just want as much as they can get. I've just read a book about the German hyperinflation of the 1920s, and even as the economy was crumbling and most people were destitute, manual workers that had the benefit of a union were still doing pretty well relative to everyone else. But of course Germany didn't have the money, so to try and keep everyone happy they just printed it. In that case the unions were just fueling the fire, and that's what they're going to do again, as always (although we're obviously not in as bad a situation).

At the last estimation I'm sure the public sector made up over half of the UK's GDP. Anyone who thinks that's a sustainable state of affairs is kidding themselves. Get the public sector out of it!

Daryl

hodgy0_2

wasn't Hilter's way out of the mess a massive public spending and investment program

GlesgaKiss

Yes.

Petem95

That Union 'alternative' document just sums up exactly what Martin2005 said earlier in this thread "we understand cuts are needed, but cut back on everything else not us" sort of thing.

The document suggests scrapping Trident to save money so there's more money to pay the public sector, yet scrapping this would result in the loss of a large number of UK based skilled jobs as well as defence staff (who are public sector).

The doc also tries to make out the national debt isnt that bad because "other countries have an even bigger debt than us"

There is no mention of pensions which is one of the major issues of the public sector - many staff are on final salary pensions, the costs of which are increasing signifcantly due to poor returns on money invested, and increased life-expectancy, so the tax-payer is having to fund an ever increasing sum to pay these pensions. Simply not sustainable!

The doc makes a couple of good points like reducing the use of consultants, but overall its no way a realistic 'alternative'.

What I also find concerning is how many people dont realise that the 'deficit' is simply the amount of borrowing the government is having to make each year. Cutting the deficit isnt cutting the national debt - it's cutting the INCREASE in the national debt.

To get to the point where we are actually tackling the national debt cuts needs to be far deeper. I think the painful truth is its just not possible for Western countries to have these high living standards, free healthcare etc and not really export much, yet import loads of goods from poor countries.

JTaylor

Godwn's law?

Dingdongler

These union leaders are living in cloud cuckoo land. The maths is simple, we cannot afford the public sector/benefits we have at present. Labour provided them by borrowing vast amounts of money, the result of which is potential 'bankruptcy'

It maybe painful but that's life. These union leaders who sound like they've never been to school are putting forward their own ideas of how to run the economy, sorry but I'm not interested in the economic theories of a glorified shop steward.

It took good old Maggie to modernise this country and sort out the housekeeping last time around, hopefully Cameron will have the political will to do it this time.

Don't spend what you can't afford to pay back, simples

Daryl

I didn't expect you to agree with it, I merely pointed out that the Unions do have an alternative, which is what you asked in the OP.

Petem95

I actually asked if they had a genuine alternative, which as the document proves.. they don't.

To be fair it makes a couple of good points, but overall nowhere near enough - and carrying out their suggestions would just result in the country getting deeper and deeper into debt, and ultimately lead to bankruptsy. When that happens (look at Greece as an example) there would have to be massive forced cuts in the public sector anyway, so really its no-win for them. They might as well make the cuts in a controlled manner now.

benno22

iTrader: (12)

If only the government was an SN member, we'd have this country bouncing back on its feet! Reckon Cameron (not so much Hague!) would look good turning up to functions in a scoob!

hodgy0_2

I agree with this to a certain extent (and America is facing this exact problem bigtime, with living standards for the middle class in decline year on year for the last 25 years -- but the richest 10% have grown stratospherically wealthier)


but can you explain how Germany manages it

Petem95

Germany has an economy built on manufacturing (like we used to). They can't make things cheaply due to labour costs obviously being higher, but they're still very efficient workers and they make high quailty products. Just look at German cars like BMW/Merc, AEG cookers, Bosch tools - list goes on. Not cheap, but good enough so that people will pay extra for it.

As countries like the UK and Spain etc dont have a manufacturing based economy anymore they've had to plug the gap with borrowing to maintain current living standards. Obviously this can only go on for so long as is becoming evident..

We dont really have that many natural resouces left to sell, and not much manufacturing. Countries like USA are in a similar boat like you say. In the medium to long term things like NHS and extensive welfare state will surely be a thing of the past, but this is likely to lead to extensive civil unrest.

dpb

Same reason hitler youth blossomed i think youll find

GlesgaKiss

Leslie

As in previous times of austerity etc. years ago, the unions were largely politically motivated and their actions were related to that rather than to the workers' welfare. They will quote the workers with their actions but practically they have a different goal in mind. That is why the economy is of no interest to them or how it is affected by the strikes. The National Debt is no concern of theirs. In fact the worse it gets the closer it will be to their real intentions.

Les

moneys

iTrader: (5)

What i would like to know is why if the banks are paying the money back in record times that htey borrowed from 'us' the tax payers, are we still having massive cuts everywhere? Also when these banks pay the money back that they owe does that mean our taxes will come down? Does the government not realise that if you make people redundant then the government has to pay these people dole money/job seekers allowance whilst getting diddly squat back off them.

Whoever voted these muppets in needs to take a big hard look at themselves, maybe you could do it a lot easier over the next few months/years as you wont have any work to do

GlesgaKiss

It's not as simple as it seems though. You're right in saying that it seems stupid making people redundant and having to pay dole money, but in the case of the public sector the majority of it is services anyway, which is a cost just like the dole, only they get paid much more. If the public sector actually produced/manufactured stuff of real value then it would be a different story. What really needs to happen is for the public sector to shrink and for the people to get jobs in the private sector making stuff, but obviously that is going to be a painful process. Also, the red tape in this country doesn't really encourage investment in manufacturing, etc.

jonc

I was on the sensationalist world of pslewis!

The same reason why we can't seem to have a thread on here without the bankers, the Government, religions, chavs, "killer" dogs, Unions, Americans, Muslims, global warming, etc etc being scapegoated for all our ills.

hodgy0_2

yes it is interesting that the "quality" argument gets trotted out re the financial industry in that you have to pay big money to retain talent etc etc (I have some sympathy with it btw)

but why when it comes to manufacturing it does not seem to apply

take our Steel industry we make the best quality Steel in the world with the most highly trained workforce in the world – yet the above “quality” argument rarely applies – it can be done cheaper elsewhere so lets close it all down or sell it off

I am sure it can be done cheaper elsewhere – it always can be done cheaper

Another striking difference is the Germans have a highly unionised workforce – in fact the unions have representation at board level in most German companies.

we are sleeping walking into a low wage low skill economy by people who know the price of everything but the value of nothing

Martin2005

OK I'll be less waspy next time

pslewis

Generally, the Public Sector are paid very little - not much more than the legal minimum in many cases.

The costs of employing these people is actually very little more than paying for them to be on the dole. The other costs of living on the dole are far higher (lack of interest in life, feeling of isolation, depression, lack of worth, no 'buy-in' to society) .... it is a disaster for the low paid Public Sector worker.

So, yes, the Public Sector is bloated ... but the savings are not really there as you would think.

Much better to hit the big earners in the City/Banks/Boardrooms .... make it illegal, for example, to pay the highest earner in a company more than 10x the lowest paid!

Let's get the balance right - not simply nail the Public Sector worker!

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Germany is pulling itself out of the hole by virtue of the fact it's the world's second biggest exporter - not bad for a country that only has 1.4% of the world's total population. That said, it's still far from immune to the problems the rest of us are having - public sector borrowing close to or above the ECB/Euro-allowed limit, unemployment hovering around the 10% (or 4.5 million) mark for well over a decade, etc, etc.

The simple answer to that is that most of them are still a very long way from paying that money back. I don't have the figures to hand, but I'd be very surprised if it's even into double-digit percentage figures yet, and if there was any real chance of a big increase coming in how much they paid back any time soon, you can guarantee we'd be hearing about it all over the news, as it would give the govt something else to talk about instead of cuts, cuts, cuts.