Unions - they just dont get it do they
#32
The "poor" also steal and are money grabbing barstewards (not all!!). I work hard and get paid well to provide for my family, however, there are those who defraud the benefit system and claim massive amounts and quite a few will have more disposable income than myself and the average hard working tax paying people.
#33
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I feel sorry for poor old Bob Crow
"As of 2009, Bob Crow's basic salary at RMT was Ł94,747; a 12% increase from the previous year despite the ongoing recession. His entire pay package with bonuses and pensions was Ł133,183; on top of this he claimed Ł9,989 in expenses and Ł2,376 in travel costs, taking his total income to Ł145,548" - Wiki
dl
"As of 2009, Bob Crow's basic salary at RMT was Ł94,747; a 12% increase from the previous year despite the ongoing recession. His entire pay package with bonuses and pensions was Ł133,183; on top of this he claimed Ł9,989 in expenses and Ł2,376 in travel costs, taking his total income to Ł145,548" - Wiki
dl
#34
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I hope the unions all get what they want. It will ultimately make them worse off anyway.
What a tw*t Bob Crowe is. Typifies public sector thinking really. The emergency/frontline services do a great job, but there are so many leeches in the rest of it desperate to get all they can for as little as they can do (management for management, etc, etc) - and unlike the rest of the population the market can't stop them. Only corrupt politicians can.
It's clear to see what Labour were trying to achieve: Employ as many people as they could in a way that meant their livelihoods were dependant upon Labour remaining in power. A vision of total political self-interest and greed no different to that present in the free capitalism they claim is the root of all evil.
What a tw*t Bob Crowe is. Typifies public sector thinking really. The emergency/frontline services do a great job, but there are so many leeches in the rest of it desperate to get all they can for as little as they can do (management for management, etc, etc) - and unlike the rest of the population the market can't stop them. Only corrupt politicians can.
It's clear to see what Labour were trying to achieve: Employ as many people as they could in a way that meant their livelihoods were dependant upon Labour remaining in power. A vision of total political self-interest and greed no different to that present in the free capitalism they claim is the root of all evil.
Last edited by GlesgaKiss; 13 September 2010 at 10:31 PM.
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Those bonuses generate huge amount of tax revenue for the government as they are subject to higher rate tax band, hence, why the government haven't "banned" them and they never will.
The "poor" also steal and are money grabbing barstewards (not all!!). I work hard and get paid well to provide for my family, however, there are those who defraud the benefit system and claim massive amounts and quite a few will have more disposable income than myself and the average hard working tax paying people.
The "poor" also steal and are money grabbing barstewards (not all!!). I work hard and get paid well to provide for my family, however, there are those who defraud the benefit system and claim massive amounts and quite a few will have more disposable income than myself and the average hard working tax paying people.
Dear lord what the hell are you on?
Thieves steal, and they come from all sorts of backgrounds.
Why can't we have a friggin thread on here without the poor or immigrants being scapegoated for all our ills?
Plus you can be damned sure the 'average hard working tax payer' has been hit far harder by bankers recently than by the 'thieving poor'
Last edited by Martin2005; 13 September 2010 at 10:37 PM.
#36
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Originally Posted by f1_fan
People like petem95 would shoot themselves in the head if the Tories told them to.
#37
Originally Posted by Gordo
I'm geuninely interested in this, Daryl What's the alternative to all cutting our cloth to live within our means?
Originally Posted by Petem95
I'm interested to know as well Daryl. Do they have a genuine alternate suggestion, or are the Unions just totally clueless of the reality of the financial situation this country is in, and just desperate for some strike action?..
There is bloat in the public sector and cuts could be made in some areas, particularly in senior management. However, the savings would be relatively small and when the government talk about 25-40% cuts, while protecting the frontline, they are deluded. I am in a frontline job, but I can't do it properly without backroom support. In fact, a lot of it has already been removed, with an obvious impact on the service provided.
To make things simple, I have posted a link below, so that you can read the view of the Public & Commercial Services Union and the alternatives that they suggest. You might not agree with it, but I think it proves that the unions' position hasn't come about just because they want a fight with the government.
http://www.pcs.org.uk/altdoc
#38
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At the last estimation I'm sure the public sector made up over half of the UK's GDP. Anyone who thinks that's a sustainable state of affairs is kidding themselves. Get the public sector out of it!
#40
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They don't have an alternative, they just want as much as they can get. I've just read a book about the German hyperinflation of the 1920s, and even as the economy was crumbling and most people were destitute, manual workers that had the benefit of a union were still doing pretty well relative to everyone else. But of course Germany didn't have the money, so to try and keep everyone happy they just printed it. In that case the unions were just fueling the fire, and that's what they're going to do again, as always (although we're obviously not in as bad a situation).
At the last estimation I'm sure the public sector made up over half of the UK's GDP. Anyone who thinks that's a sustainable state of affairs is kidding themselves. Get the public sector out of it!
At the last estimation I'm sure the public sector made up over half of the UK's GDP. Anyone who thinks that's a sustainable state of affairs is kidding themselves. Get the public sector out of it!
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The document suggests scrapping Trident to save money so there's more money to pay the public sector, yet scrapping this would result in the loss of a large number of UK based skilled jobs as well as defence staff (who are public sector).
The doc also tries to make out the national debt isnt that bad because "other countries have an even bigger debt than us"
There is no mention of pensions which is one of the major issues of the public sector - many staff are on final salary pensions, the costs of which are increasing signifcantly due to poor returns on money invested, and increased life-expectancy, so the tax-payer is having to fund an ever increasing sum to pay these pensions. Simply not sustainable!
The doc makes a couple of good points like reducing the use of consultants, but overall its no way a realistic 'alternative'.
What I also find concerning is how many people dont realise that the 'deficit' is simply the amount of borrowing the government is having to make each year. Cutting the deficit isnt cutting the national debt - it's cutting the INCREASE in the national debt.
To get to the point where we are actually tackling the national debt cuts needs to be far deeper. I think the painful truth is its just not possible for Western countries to have these high living standards, free healthcare etc and not really export much, yet import loads of goods from poor countries.
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I LOVE coments about so-called "gold plated public sector pensions"
I wonder how many on here would moan if they had to pay what the public sector do in pension payments, no choice, and then have the pot nicked by successive governments.
I hate to say this, but this constant hate and smear campaign against the public sector smacks of the German's treatment of a certain set of people in the 30's. The country needs someone to hate, someone to focus it's hatred of cuts on, and the public sector is it
I wonder how many on here would moan if they had to pay what the public sector do in pension payments, no choice, and then have the pot nicked by successive governments.
I hate to say this, but this constant hate and smear campaign against the public sector smacks of the German's treatment of a certain set of people in the 30's. The country needs someone to hate, someone to focus it's hatred of cuts on, and the public sector is it
#44
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These union leaders are living in cloud cuckoo land. The maths is simple, we cannot afford the public sector/benefits we have at present. Labour provided them by borrowing vast amounts of money, the result of which is potential 'bankruptcy'
It maybe painful but that's life. These union leaders who sound like they've never been to school are putting forward their own ideas of how to run the economy, sorry but I'm not interested in the economic theories of a glorified shop steward.
It took good old Maggie to modernise this country and sort out the housekeeping last time around, hopefully Cameron will have the political will to do it this time.
Don't spend what you can't afford to pay back, simples
It maybe painful but that's life. These union leaders who sound like they've never been to school are putting forward their own ideas of how to run the economy, sorry but I'm not interested in the economic theories of a glorified shop steward.
It took good old Maggie to modernise this country and sort out the housekeeping last time around, hopefully Cameron will have the political will to do it this time.
Don't spend what you can't afford to pay back, simples
#45
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To be fair it makes a couple of good points, but overall nowhere near enough - and carrying out their suggestions would just result in the country getting deeper and deeper into debt, and ultimately lead to bankruptsy. When that happens (look at Greece as an example) there would have to be massive forced cuts in the public sector anyway, so really its no-win for them. They might as well make the cuts in a controlled manner now.
#48
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but can you explain how Germany manages it
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I agree with this to a certain extent (and America is facing this exact problem bigtime, with living standards for the middle class in decline year on year for the last 25 years -- but the richest 10% have grown stratospherically wealthier)
but can you explain how Germany manages it
but can you explain how Germany manages it
As countries like the UK and Spain etc dont have a manufacturing based economy anymore they've had to plug the gap with borrowing to maintain current living standards. Obviously this can only go on for so long as is becoming evident..
We dont really have that many natural resouces left to sell, and not much manufacturing. Countries like USA are in a similar boat like you say. In the medium to long term things like NHS and extensive welfare state will surely be a thing of the past, but this is likely to lead to extensive civil unrest.
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I agree with this to a certain extent (and America is facing this exact problem bigtime, with living standards for the middle class in decline year on year for the last 25 years -- but the richest 10% have grown stratospherically wealthier)
but can you explain how Germany manages it
but can you explain how Germany manages it
#51
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Germany has an economy built on manufacturing (like we used to). They can't make things cheaply due to labour costs obviously being higher, but they're still very efficient workers and they make high quailty products. Just look at German cars like BMW/Merc, AEG cookers, Bosch tools - list goes on. Not cheap, but good enough so that people will pay extra for it.
As countries like the UK and Spain etc dont have a manufacturing based economy anymore they've had to plug the gap with borrowing to maintain current living standards. Obviously this can only go on for so long as is becoming evident..
We dont really have that many natural resouces left to sell, and not much manufacturing. Countries like USA are in a similar boat like you say. In the medium to long term things like NHS and extensive welfare state will surely be a thing of the past, but this is likely to lead to extensive civil unrest.
As countries like the UK and Spain etc dont have a manufacturing based economy anymore they've had to plug the gap with borrowing to maintain current living standards. Obviously this can only go on for so long as is becoming evident..
We dont really have that many natural resouces left to sell, and not much manufacturing. Countries like USA are in a similar boat like you say. In the medium to long term things like NHS and extensive welfare state will surely be a thing of the past, but this is likely to lead to extensive civil unrest.
#52
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...on-leader.html
Ok it's not good news for anyone who might lose their job as a result of cut-backs, but do the Unions not understand there is simply no money to pay for all these jobs, benefits, pensions?!
Rather than just trying to get everyone to go on strike, how about they suggest how the government should tackle the issue of massive national debts, or is the whole concept just beyond the Union leaders?
Ok it's not good news for anyone who might lose their job as a result of cut-backs, but do the Unions not understand there is simply no money to pay for all these jobs, benefits, pensions?!
Rather than just trying to get everyone to go on strike, how about they suggest how the government should tackle the issue of massive national debts, or is the whole concept just beyond the Union leaders?
Les
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What i would like to know is why if the banks are paying the money back in record times that htey borrowed from 'us' the tax payers, are we still having massive cuts everywhere? Also when these banks pay the money back that they owe does that mean our taxes will come down? Does the government not realise that if you make people redundant then the government has to pay these people dole money/job seekers allowance whilst getting diddly squat back off them.
Whoever voted these muppets in needs to take a big hard look at themselves, maybe you could do it a lot easier over the next few months/years as you wont have any work to do
Whoever voted these muppets in needs to take a big hard look at themselves, maybe you could do it a lot easier over the next few months/years as you wont have any work to do
#54
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What i would like to know is why if the banks are paying the money back in record times that htey borrowed from 'us' the tax payers, are we still having massive cuts everywhere? Also when these banks pay the money back that they owe does that mean our taxes will come down? Does the government not realise that if you make people redundant then the government has to pay these people dole money/job seekers allowance whilst getting diddly squat back off them.
Whoever voted these muppets in needs to take a big hard look at themselves, maybe you could do it a lot easier over the next few months/years as you wont have any work to do
Whoever voted these muppets in needs to take a big hard look at themselves, maybe you could do it a lot easier over the next few months/years as you wont have any work to do
#55
I was on the sensationalist world of pslewis!
The same reason why we can't seem to have a thread on here without the bankers, the Government, religions, chavs, "killer" dogs, Unions, Americans, Muslims, global warming, etc etc being scapegoated for all our ills.
The same reason why we can't seem to have a thread on here without the bankers, the Government, religions, chavs, "killer" dogs, Unions, Americans, Muslims, global warming, etc etc being scapegoated for all our ills.
#56
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Germany has an economy built on manufacturing (like we used to). They can't make things cheaply due to labour costs obviously being higher, but they're still very efficient workers and they make high quailty products. Just look at German cars like BMW/Merc, AEG cookers, Bosch tools - list goes on. Not cheap, but good enough so that people will pay extra for it.
As countries like the UK and Spain etc dont have a manufacturing based economy anymore they've had to plug the gap with borrowing to maintain current living standards. Obviously this can only go on for so long as is becoming evident..
We dont really have that many natural resouces left to sell, and not much manufacturing. Countries like USA are in a similar boat like you say. In the medium to long term things like NHS and extensive welfare state will surely be a thing of the past, but this is likely to lead to extensive civil unrest.
As countries like the UK and Spain etc dont have a manufacturing based economy anymore they've had to plug the gap with borrowing to maintain current living standards. Obviously this can only go on for so long as is becoming evident..
We dont really have that many natural resouces left to sell, and not much manufacturing. Countries like USA are in a similar boat like you say. In the medium to long term things like NHS and extensive welfare state will surely be a thing of the past, but this is likely to lead to extensive civil unrest.
but why when it comes to manufacturing it does not seem to apply
take our Steel industry we make the best quality Steel in the world with the most highly trained workforce in the world – yet the above “quality” argument rarely applies – it can be done cheaper elsewhere so lets close it all down or sell it off
I am sure it can be done cheaper elsewhere – it always can be done cheaper
Another striking difference is the Germans have a highly unionised workforce – in fact the unions have representation at board level in most German companies.
we are sleeping walking into a low wage low skill economy by people who know the price of everything but the value of nothing
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 14 September 2010 at 01:23 PM.
#57
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OK I'll be less waspy next time
#58
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Generally, the Public Sector are paid very little - not much more than the legal minimum in many cases.
The costs of employing these people is actually very little more than paying for them to be on the dole. The other costs of living on the dole are far higher (lack of interest in life, feeling of isolation, depression, lack of worth, no 'buy-in' to society) .... it is a disaster for the low paid Public Sector worker.
So, yes, the Public Sector is bloated ... but the savings are not really there as you would think.
Much better to hit the big earners in the City/Banks/Boardrooms .... make it illegal, for example, to pay the highest earner in a company more than 10x the lowest paid!
Let's get the balance right - not simply nail the Public Sector worker!
The costs of employing these people is actually very little more than paying for them to be on the dole. The other costs of living on the dole are far higher (lack of interest in life, feeling of isolation, depression, lack of worth, no 'buy-in' to society) .... it is a disaster for the low paid Public Sector worker.
So, yes, the Public Sector is bloated ... but the savings are not really there as you would think.
Much better to hit the big earners in the City/Banks/Boardrooms .... make it illegal, for example, to pay the highest earner in a company more than 10x the lowest paid!
Let's get the balance right - not simply nail the Public Sector worker!
#59
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but can you explain how Germany manages it
Same reason hitler youth blossomed i think youll find
What i would like to know is why if the banks are paying the money back in record times that htey borrowed from 'us' the tax payers, are we still having massive cuts everywhere? Also when these banks pay the money back that they owe does that mean our taxes will come down?
#60
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Germany is pulling itself out of the hole by virtue of the fact it's the world's second biggest exporter - not bad for a country that only has 1.4% of the world's total population. That said, it's still far from immune to the problems the rest of us are having - public sector borrowing close to or above the ECB/Euro-allowed limit, unemployment hovering around the 10% (or 4.5 million) mark for well over a decade, etc, etc. ...
Dave