God made the World!!
17 September 2010, 03:30 PM
#91
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But that's not to say that I have not seen modern day medical miracles (people presumed dead waking in morgues, people with broken backs told they'll never walk again), or physical miracles (making planes or the Statue of Liberty disappear) or bushes suddenly turning into fire. The type of things that the Bible says happened.
This is nearly as bad as the man who is attending a beatification ceremony during the Pope's visit who claims that praying to Cardinal Newman cured his back problem, yet funnily enough it was after an operation to fix the problem that has near 100% success rate and gives virtually instant relief
Now that's not to say that the Bible is full of magicians, but to simply dismiss the events of the Bible never occurring just because physics says it can't would bring into question how modern magicians can do some of these feats (which clearly they can do otherwise what did I see on telly). I doubt people turn up to Penn and Teller and simply shout "Physics says you can't do that" for 1.5 hours of one of their shows.
Geezer
17 September 2010, 03:37 PM
#92
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't say that physics is contrary to what the bible teaches. However I would say that modern physics calls into dispute the apparent miracles that occur in the bible.
But that's not to say that I have not seen modern day medical miracles (people presumed dead waking in morgues, people with broken backs told they'll never walk again), or physical miracles (making planes or the Statue of Liberty disappear) or bushes suddenly turning into fire. The type of things that the Bible says happened.
Now that's not to say that the Bible is full of magicians, but to simply dismiss the events of the Bible never occurring just because physics says it can't would bring into question how modern magicians can do some of these feats (which clearly they can do otherwise what did I see on telly). I doubt people turn up to Penn and Teller and simply shout "Physics says you can't do that" for 1.5 hours of one of their shows.
But that's not to say that I have not seen modern day medical miracles (people presumed dead waking in morgues, people with broken backs told they'll never walk again), or physical miracles (making planes or the Statue of Liberty disappear) or bushes suddenly turning into fire. The type of things that the Bible says happened.
Now that's not to say that the Bible is full of magicians, but to simply dismiss the events of the Bible never occurring just because physics says it can't would bring into question how modern magicians can do some of these feats (which clearly they can do otherwise what did I see on telly). I doubt people turn up to Penn and Teller and simply shout "Physics says you can't do that" for 1.5 hours of one of their shows.
17 September 2010, 03:56 PM
#93
Hang on, that doesn't make sense! It's either contrary or it's not. If calls into dispute, it's contrary!
Don't say mis-diagnosis or incompetence is a medical miracle!
This is nearly as bad as the man who is attending a beatification ceremony during the Pope's visit who claims that praying to Cardinal Newman cured his back problem, yet funnily enough it was after an operation to fix the problem that has near 100% success rate and gives virtually instant relief
Eh? Magicians perform tricks. That's quite a key word! They didn't really make anything disappear. Sleight of hand etc., optical illusion. Physics really does preclude those things from happening, and so it does in the bible.
Geezer
Don't say mis-diagnosis or incompetence is a medical miracle!
This is nearly as bad as the man who is attending a beatification ceremony during the Pope's visit who claims that praying to Cardinal Newman cured his back problem, yet funnily enough it was after an operation to fix the problem that has near 100% success rate and gives virtually instant relief
Eh? Magicians perform tricks. That's quite a key word! They didn't really make anything disappear. Sleight of hand etc., optical illusion. Physics really does preclude those things from happening, and so it does in the bible.
Geezer
For example Jesus apparently rising from the dead? Well there are verifiable stories that people have woken up in morgues, this occasionally even happens today. Did a load of people think they were dead, yes. Doctors have even been involved to certify the deceased. But to say that no one has ever "risen" from the dead cannot happen because physics says so is wrong. Of course this is usually accompanied by a medical explanation of why this happened. But the fact remains is that people have "risen" from the dead even these day. Does the Bible tell us this? Yes. Does it mean that Jesus and God caused someone to rise from the dead? Well I don't know about that.
Could a bush apparently burst into fire by itself? Yes I bet you could setup a trick to do that, possible coated in some volatile chemicals that react under sunlight to burn? Did David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear - yes he did that. Could someone make 5 loaves feed 5000 people, I haven't a clue, but I bet that someone somehow has a trick to do that (biggest loaves in the world? Maybe they are in the Guniness Book of Records etc). I don't know, but I keep an open mind that while some of these things are clearly not miracles I am sure that they can be done.
So because of that I do not simply dismiss the Bible as impossible. Because it's entirely possible.
17 September 2010, 04:02 PM
#94
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wanting the English to come first in England for a change!
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they refused i would remove the child from religious studies and make all the other parents aware of waht is happening!
17 September 2010, 04:04 PM
#95
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wanting the English to come first in England for a change!
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
17 September 2010, 04:05 PM
#96
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sherwood Forest
Posts: 1,245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn it. 
Ok, Let me just say that it would be physically or whatever form he/she/it chooses to take impossible for a single entity to create everything.
Frosty The Snowman LOL. I am also open minded about creation. The whole Single entity creation theory just doesn't wash with me though.
Ok, Let me just say that it would be physically or whatever form he/she/it chooses to take impossible for a single entity to create everything.Frosty The Snowman LOL. I am also open minded about creation. The whole Single entity creation theory just doesn't wash with me though.
17 September 2010, 04:14 PM
#98
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Runway two seven right.
Posts: 6,652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, I haven't read a science book that proves beyond doubt that God did not create the universe. I thought that debate was still going on between science and theologians. However, if I've missed something and such a book does exist, and religion has been proven to be bunkum, please point me to that book. I'd love to read it.
PS. Less of the insults please. It doesn't really get us anywhere does it?
17 September 2010, 04:15 PM
#99
Scooby Regular
My little blind fish must believe I am God, he's never seen me, never spoke directly to me, never touched me but I created his world, look after his well being and feed him everyday.
17 September 2010, 04:17 PM
#100
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Runway two seven right.
Posts: 6,652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn it. Ok, Let me just say that it would be physically or whatever form he/she/it chooses to take impossible for a single entity to create everything.
Frosty The Snowman LOL. I am also open minded about creation. The whole Single entity creation theory just doesn't wash with me though.
Ok, Let me just say that it would be physically or whatever form he/she/it chooses to take impossible for a single entity to create everything.Frosty The Snowman LOL. I am also open minded about creation. The whole Single entity creation theory just doesn't wash with me though.
Again I don't subscribe to the theory but my mind is open. The Frosty theory still holds a certain charm for me!
17 September 2010, 04:21 PM
#102
Scooby Regular
17 September 2010, 04:25 PM
#103
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species.../dp/0517123207
Religion is just a construct of the human mind
17 September 2010, 04:26 PM
#104
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As for venom, I don't really have any. It is fascinating how people how be fooled by such an obvious non-truth, so I am rather incredulous, not venomous!
For example Jesus apparently rising from the dead? Well there are verifiable stories that people have woken up in morgues, this occasionally even happens today. Did a load of people think they were dead, yes. Doctors have even been involved to certify the deceased. But to say that no one has ever "risen" from the dead cannot happen because physics says so is wrong. Of course this is usually accompanied by a medical explanation of why this happened. But the fact remains is that people have "risen" from the dead even these day. Does the Bible tell us this? Yes. Does it mean that Jesus and God caused someone to rise from the dead? Well I don't know about that.
Now it is not beyong the realms of possibilty that he was still alive after 3 days, but consider this : huge blood loss, restricted breathing, no water, no food. In the extremely unlikely event he wasn't dead, do you think that after 3 days of those conditions he actually got up and walked round unaided? And moved the rock blocking his tomb?
Could a bush apparently burst into fire by itself? Yes I bet you could setup a trick to do that, possible coated in some volatile chemicals that react under sunlight to burn? Did David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear - yes he did that. Could someone make 5 loaves feed 5000 people, I haven't a clue, but I bet that someone somehow has a trick to do that (biggest loaves in the world? Maybe they are in the Guniness Book of Records etc). I don't know, but I keep an open mind that while some of these things are clearly not miracles I am sure that they can be done.
So because of that I do not simply dismiss the Bible as impossible. Because it's entirely possible.
So because of that I do not simply dismiss the Bible as impossible. Because it's entirely possible.
David Copperfield did not make the statue of liberty disappear. He made it so that we wouldn't see it, it's quite different.
The bible is not entirely possible, it's mostly impossible.
Geezer
17 September 2010, 04:33 PM
#106
More of a caretaker than a God since you didn't actually create him from nothing nor created a companion from one of his little ickle ribs.
17 September 2010, 04:41 PM
#107
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wanting the English to come first in England for a change!
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, I haven't read a science book that proves beyond doubt that God did not create the universe. I thought that debate was still going on between science and theologians. However, if I've missed something and such a book does exist, and religion has been proven to be bunkum, please point me to that book. I'd love to read it.
PS. Less of the insults please. It doesn't really get us anywhere does it?
PS. Less of the insults please. It doesn't really get us anywhere does it?
17 September 2010, 04:42 PM
#108
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wanting the English to come first in England for a change!
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Start here
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species.../dp/0517123207
Religion is just a construct of the human mind
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species.../dp/0517123207
Religion is just a construct of the human mind
17 September 2010, 04:44 PM
#109
Aha I see a ***** of light :-)
I'm not about to debate whether the odds of someone rising from the dead or bushes burning or making things disappears. That is not my intention. It was my intention to show that one could produce the same things as seen in the Bible. Therefore to say that Physics proves the Bible is impossible, is wrong.
The original point I was expanding on is that "modern physics... is contrary to the Bible". Ie modern physics says that the Bible is wrong and impossible. The real issue is not whether they are possible (clearly they are), it's in the interpretation of those events in the Bible, not whether some of the apparent miracles are real or not.
As mentioned earlier I appreciate a magic show for what it is. But I don't go around claiming that it's not possible to do the tricks just because they are contrary to physics. But, and here's the important part, I do not take that a stage further and create a religion around it.
There have been several posts (not just by you) lately about the Bible being a pack of lies both in miracles and historical content, maybe it is, but I prefer to keep an open mind on everything, rather than close it off with sweeping statement.
I'm not about to debate whether the odds of someone rising from the dead or bushes burning or making things disappears. That is not my intention. It was my intention to show that one could produce the same things as seen in the Bible. Therefore to say that Physics proves the Bible is impossible, is wrong.
The original point I was expanding on is that "modern physics... is contrary to the Bible". Ie modern physics says that the Bible is wrong and impossible. The real issue is not whether they are possible (clearly they are), it's in the interpretation of those events in the Bible, not whether some of the apparent miracles are real or not.
As mentioned earlier I appreciate a magic show for what it is. But I don't go around claiming that it's not possible to do the tricks just because they are contrary to physics. But, and here's the important part, I do not take that a stage further and create a religion around it.
There have been several posts (not just by you) lately about the Bible being a pack of lies both in miracles and historical content, maybe it is, but I prefer to keep an open mind on everything, rather than close it off with sweeping statement.
17 September 2010, 04:57 PM
#110
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: ....
Posts: 6,621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think SN should have two new forums - I'd like to see a Radical Atheists one and a Believers one, please.
Then we can leave each other in peace.
Moreover, if any of you non believers want to join me over here - where I've been for a number of years, you're more than welcome.
Things are a happening, people. It won't be long.
http://radicalatheist.com/
And just to even it up
http://forums.jesusradicals.com/
Then we can leave each other in peace.
Moreover, if any of you non believers want to join me over here - where I've been for a number of years, you're more than welcome.
Things are a happening, people. It won't be long.
http://radicalatheist.com/
And just to even it up
http://forums.jesusradicals.com/
17 September 2010, 04:58 PM
#111
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aha I see a ***** of light :-)
I'm not about to debate whether the odds of someone rising from the dead or bushes burning or making things disappears. That is not my intention. It was my intention to show that one could produce the same things as seen in the Bible. Therefore to say that Physics proves the Bible is impossible, is wrong.
The original point I was expanding on is that "modern physics... is contrary to the Bible". Ie modern physics says that the Bible is wrong and impossible. The real issue is not whether they are possible (clearly they are), it's in the interpretation of those events in the Bible, not whether some of the apparent miracles are real or not.
As mentioned earlier I appreciate a magic show for what it is. But I don't go around claiming that it's not possible to do the tricks just because they are contrary to physics. But, and here's the important part, I do not take that a stage further and create a religion around it.
There have been several posts (not just by you) lately about the Bible being a pack of lies both in miracles and historical content, maybe it is, but I prefer to keep an open mind on everything, rather than close it off with sweeping statement.
I'm not about to debate whether the odds of someone rising from the dead or bushes burning or making things disappears. That is not my intention. It was my intention to show that one could produce the same things as seen in the Bible. Therefore to say that Physics proves the Bible is impossible, is wrong.
The original point I was expanding on is that "modern physics... is contrary to the Bible". Ie modern physics says that the Bible is wrong and impossible. The real issue is not whether they are possible (clearly they are), it's in the interpretation of those events in the Bible, not whether some of the apparent miracles are real or not.
As mentioned earlier I appreciate a magic show for what it is. But I don't go around claiming that it's not possible to do the tricks just because they are contrary to physics. But, and here's the important part, I do not take that a stage further and create a religion around it.
There have been several posts (not just by you) lately about the Bible being a pack of lies both in miracles and historical content, maybe it is, but I prefer to keep an open mind on everything, rather than close it off with sweeping statement.
If that is so, then yes, of course I concede that is a possibility, but it still means that the miracles in the bible are not miracles, either way
So what point is there in the bible?
Geezer
17 September 2010, 05:08 PM
#113
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moreover, if any of you non believers want to join me over here - where I've been for a number of years, you're more than welcome.
Things are a happening, people. It won't be long.
http://radicalatheist.com/
/
17 September 2010, 05:37 PM
#114
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Runway two seven right.
Posts: 6,652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
17 September 2010, 06:15 PM
#115
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back on topic - in the US if a four year old came home having been taught this at school there would be hell to pay. Indeed the parents could sue the school!
US Presidents can lose elections backing RE in schools.
Prayer in assembly is a hugely controversial issue. It does not seem to have stopped the religious right indoctrinating their own though!
US Presidents can lose elections backing RE in schools.
Prayer in assembly is a hugely controversial issue. It does not seem to have stopped the religious right indoctrinating their own though!
17 September 2010, 08:39 PM
#117
Scooby Senior
17 September 2010, 08:59 PM
#118
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is blatantly obvious what a good set of morals are, what is right, what is wrong etc everyone implements them in a way they see fit for their child.
17 September 2010, 09:47 PM
#119
I personally wouldn't worry about it. I had religion rammed down my throat at infance and junior school and it didn't brain wash me. Ultimately religous parents will be the ones grooming their kids into their ways. So if you are there to give a balanced view of things I'm sure they'll see the light.
Might sound odd to some people but I could never be good friends with someone that believed a god/ man image created earth/ the universe. Infact the only people I know that are truly worshippers are really loopy. I was watching some of the pope visit in Scotland yesterday and just watching some of the people worshipping this man made me feel quite ill.
Might sound odd to some people but I could never be good friends with someone that believed a god/ man image created earth/ the universe. Infact the only people I know that are truly worshippers are really loopy. I was watching some of the pope visit in Scotland yesterday and just watching some of the people worshipping this man made me feel quite ill.
17 September 2010, 11:08 PM
#120
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not an intellectual thing but a matter of consciousness.